12:22:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
12:22:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/30-poe-irc
12:22:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:22:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:22:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:22:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:22:18 <trackbot> Date: 30 January 2017
12:22:28 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:22:38 <renato> present+ renato
12:22:44 <renato> chair: renato
12:22:52 <renato> regrets: ivan
12:23:58 <simonstey> present+
12:24:53 <phila> present+
12:25:19 <benws2> benws2 has joined #poe
12:25:36 <renato> regrets: serena
12:26:34 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:26:37 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:27:07 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170130
12:27:37 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
12:28:00 <michaelS> present+ michaelS
12:31:59 <CarolineB> present+ CarolineB
12:33:16 <phila> Topic: Preliminaries
12:33:26 <michaelS> scribe: CarolineB
12:33:35 <michaelS> scribenick: CarolineB
12:33:36 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/01/16-poe-minutes.html
12:33:59 <phila> [NOTUC]
12:34:00 <Sabrina> Sabrina has joined #poe
12:34:00 <CarolineB> minutes approved
12:34:14 <phila>  (No objection to unanimous consensus)
12:34:35 <Sabrina> present+ Sabrina
12:34:36 <smyles> smyles has joined #poe
12:34:38 <CarolineB> topic: deliverables
12:34:45 <benws2> present+
12:35:09 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues
12:35:45 <CarolineB> renato: from issues list, got thorugh many last week, couple waiting for comment.
12:35:55 <smyles> present+
12:36:06 <benws2> q+
12:36:15 <CarolineB> ... semantic details being discussed
12:36:31 <CarolineB> ... json ld section needs work
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12:36:42 <Brian_Ulicny> present+
12:37:05 <simonstey> +q
12:37:20 <CarolineB> benws2: complex constraints. Simon and Michael were going to give examples to show pitfalls
12:38:39 <renato> isNecessaryFor - the left operand Constraints must be satisfied before processing the left operand Constraint which then must be satisfied
12:38:56 <CarolineB> simonstey: main problem is that isNecessary means that temporal dependencies can be imposed between constraints
12:39:04 <simonstey> c1 isNecessaryFor c2, c2 isNF c3, c3 isNF c1
12:39:46 <CarolineB> simonstey: adn this leads to deadlock - as example above
12:39:48 <simonstey> c1 isNF c2, c3 isNF c2, c1 xor c3
12:40:02 <simonstey> c4 isNF c1 -> c4 not resolveable
12:41:46 <michaelS> q
12:42:28 <phila> q+ michaelS
12:43:38 <CarolineB> simonstey: I think we should avoid combining constraints so that we avoid huge chains
12:44:02 <CarolineB> ... lets simply say before or after date/times
12:44:24 <benws2> q?
12:44:34 <benws2> ack benws
12:44:43 <simonstey> ack simonstey
12:44:45 <simonstey> ack michaelS
12:45:24 <CarolineB> michaelS: we need to think of worst cases. So if checking takes too long we could set a timeout period for checking
12:45:41 <CarolineB> ... or a default value for what happens if you get a timeout
12:46:00 <CarolineB> renato: Remove all extended constraint stuff?
12:46:38 <CarolineB> simonstey: just leave and or xor etc. remove IsNecessary concept for now
12:47:49 <CarolineB> ... we need to leave constraint on constraint, not remove it
12:48:30 <CarolineB> ... just still need to think about the requirement. Temporal constraint is too difficult
12:49:00 <CarolineB> benws2: we d need to be able to check amount and unit
12:52:14 <CarolineB> ... so we need to keep case where there is more than one predicate. Is it simply temporal that is problematic?
12:54:16 <CarolineB> ... are there complex constraints we can retain?
12:56:15 <CarolineB> renato: haven't yet found a solution to cover all cases despite talking a lot
12:57:03 <CarolineB> ... but if we don't have it at all in the draft we are saying we can't handle constraint on constraint at all
12:58:06 <benws2> +1 to expression
12:58:58 <CarolineB> simonstey: if we keep it, I want to go over edge cases and explain the problems
13:00:14 <victor> victor has joined #poe
13:01:01 <victor> present+ victor Again, sorry for me having missed half of the meeting.
13:01:05 <CarolineB> .. we must avoid must be satisfied *before* processing. to avoid deadlocks
13:01:24 <michaelS> q+
13:02:22 <CarolineB> michaelS: so should we include sequence for processing?
13:03:56 <CarolineB> renato: is necessary for gives us that sequence
13:04:04 <Brian_Ulicny> q+
13:05:43 <simonstey> ack michaelS
13:05:49 <simonstey> ack Brian_Ulicny
13:06:54 <CarolineB> brian_ulicny: owl and sparql use if then - can we do the same and only evaluate all constraints when they are all satisfiable?
13:07:02 <michaelS> q+
13:08:01 <CarolineB> ... exampe of event + 30 inutes relies on representing the extra 30 mins
13:08:51 <CarolineB> simonstey: All Time a possible solution?
13:09:04 <simonstey> owl
13:09:14 <CarolineB> owl time that is
13:09:27 <simonstey> https://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/
13:12:03 <CarolineB> simonstey: you can't always check everything of ocurse
13:12:12 <phila> phila: if it matters, OWL time gets an update on Thursday https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-owl-time-20170202/
13:12:32 <benws2> :)
13:12:36 <CarolineB> renato: we will need to revisit this section and add more narrative to IsNecessaryFor (isNF)
13:14:17 <CarolineB> simonstey: some editorial things need fixing.
13:14:52 <CarolineB> ... current information model still contains legacy sections (from xml) that are confusing; e.g. 3.4
13:16:02 <CarolineB> ... adn some parts too implementation specific; e.g. inherit condition
13:17:29 <CarolineB> ... please would everyone go over, check these things and suggest changes w eneed
13:17:38 <benws2> q+
13:18:01 <michaelS> q-
13:18:09 <simonstey> ack benws2
13:18:14 <simonstey> ack benws
13:19:32 <CarolineB> benws2: there is some ambiguity around prohibitions and permissions
13:19:59 <CarolineB> simonstey: shouldn't have a policy with only prohibitions
13:20:41 <CarolineB> benws2: is a prohibition at same level as permission or should it only qualify a permission?
13:21:11 <michaelS> q+
13:21:24 <CarolineB> renato: originally anything permitted must be in the expression all esle assumed ot be prohibited
13:21:54 <CarolineB> ... /s/esle/else
13:22:51 <CarolineB> renato: yes, we should probably revisit for clarity
13:24:46 <CarolineB> michaelS: the starting point of nothing is permitted came from discussion with lawyers. Its a legal pov
13:25:17 <smyles> q+
13:25:43 <CarolineB> simonstey: suggests this could be too restrictive for ODRL
13:27:29 <CarolineB> q+
13:28:30 <michaelS> q-
13:28:39 <smyles> http://dev.iptc.org/RIghtsML-Processing-Model
13:28:59 <CarolineB> smyles: rightsML processing model is defined 1. first look at whats permitted then look at ODRL.
13:29:20 <CarolineB> ... reason we defined it that way since news is handled that way now ex ODRL
13:30:22 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/30-poe-minutes.html phila
13:30:23 <CarolineB> renato: we are reviewing the prohiition section
13:30:32 <simonstey> +q
13:30:36 <CarolineB> ... q-
13:30:37 <simonstey> ack smyles
13:30:43 <simonstey> ack CarolineB
13:30:44 <CarolineB> q-
13:31:00 <CarolineB> renato: we need to create a JsonLD context
13:31:27 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:31:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/30-poe-minutes.html phila
13:32:20 <michaelS> regret not joining next call
13:32:29 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:32:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/30-poe-minutes.html phila
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