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15:52:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:52:27 <trackbot> Date: 27 January 2017
15:52:29 <ivan> Chair: Tim
15:52:53 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/0aaa01d277ec$efebf050$cfc3d0f0$@illinois.edu
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15:53:07 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda call for 2017-01-27: http://www.w3.org/mid/0aaa01d277ec$efebf050$cfc3d0f0$@illinois.edu
15:53:33 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:53:48 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
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15:55:44 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
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15:57:10 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:57:46 <tilgovi> Present+ Randall_Leeds
15:58:09 <csarven> Present+ Sarven Capadisli
15:59:40 <csarven> =)
16:00:15 <csarven> Underscore in place of space?
16:02:08 <TimCole> scribenick: TimCole
16:02:29 <TimCole> Topic: HTML Serialization
16:03:24 <TimCole> TimCole: goal is to have something in week to 10 days that WG can vote on
16:03:49 <bigbluehat> discussing http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/serialization-html-note/index-respec.html#annotations-embedded-in-html-as-json-ld
16:03:59 <bigbluehat> s/http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/serialization-html-note/index-respec.html#annotations-embedded-in-html-as-json-ld/http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/serialization-html-note/index-respec.html
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16:04:08 <TimCole> csarven: need to cover the text of the document and also the examples
16:04:14 <bigbluehat> q+
16:04:51 <TimCole> ... main options we're using are json-ld and rdfa, maybe mention Turtle also
16:05:10 <TimCole> ... we don't need in a Note to cover everything
16:05:28 <ivan> q+
16:05:34 <TimCole> ack bigbluehat
16:05:40 <bigbluehat> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/selector-note/#frags
16:06:08 <TimCole> bigbluehat: writing a section about fragment selectors in context of HTML, e.g., with citation and reference within same doc
16:06:14 <ivan> +1 to ben
16:06:39 <TimCole> ... one thing about Turtle, probably not worth including examples, but need to mention that you can use other RDF options
16:06:59 <TimCole> ... but caution that other serialization may not be as friendly to HTML (i.e., less tooling)>
16:07:05 <TimCole> ack ivan
16:08:09 <TimCole> ivan: agree with what's been said. Additional - about whether it's worth making clear that if you use JSON-LD and RDFa in same file there are some details
16:08:33 <TimCole> ... about whether this create minor issues. So maybe a cautioin that it's better not to use both.
16:08:57 <TimCole> ... agree Benjamin
16:09:01 <bigbluehat> +1 to calling out the "unclear usage" for JSON-lD *and* RDFa in a single doc
16:09:14 <bigbluehat> it's pretty much unexplored/defined afaik
16:09:18 <TimCole> TimCole: first, the identifier given to the annotation(s)
16:09:23 <csarven> 'given to...?'
16:10:03 <TimCole> ... are we assuming that the annotation id is typically an HTML fragment id
16:10:23 <TimCole> azaroth: from API standpoint you typically get more than just annotation
16:10:33 <ivan> q+
16:10:48 <TimCole> ... if a representation exists independently, then that id is better
16:10:50 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:10:52 <TimCole> ack ivan
16:11:35 <TimCole> ivan: From RDFa lens, people make a differnece between HTML id attribute and id of the RDFa (e.g., using the about attribute)
16:11:46 <TimCole> ... not sure if id attribute is used in RDFa
16:11:51 <bigbluehat> q+
16:12:01 <TimCole> ... so maybe a warning aobut HTML id as annotation id
16:12:10 <TimCole> ack bigbluehat
16:12:18 <bigbluehat> ...that would mean in Tim's examples the fragment identifiers are referencing the <script> element in the DOM...not the contents of the <script> tag...correct? http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/serialization-html-note/index-respec.html#annotations-embedded-in-html-as-json-ld
16:12:56 <TimCole> bigbluehat: so the json-ld id and id of script are being conflicted
16:13:16 <TimCole> ivan: yes, so not only RDFa but json-ld
16:13:43 <bigbluehat> DOM-wise in most modern browsers the DOM id's become JS variables fwiw
16:13:49 <TimCole> q+
16:13:52 <csarven> I haven't seen (or recall) @id getting picked up by an RDFa parser.
16:14:02 <TimCole> ack TimCole
16:14:16 <bigbluehat> so if you were to console.log(window['anno-588a322026bbcc00203fd0fb']) you'd get the JSON-LD (afaik)
16:14:27 <ivan> Yep, csarven, I think at some point we decided to separate these
16:14:44 <TimCole> TimCole: in practice we give wholly different ids
16:14:46 <bigbluehat> csarven: yeah...I'm not worried in this case about RDFa exactly, just that all references point to the same thing
16:15:02 <TimCole> ivan: mint a different id
16:15:13 <csarven> +1 to removing @id from script. Confusing (IMO)
16:16:03 <TimCole> ... remove id attribute from script tag (and maybe also class) since not relevant to illustration in Note
16:16:07 <bigbluehat> q+
16:16:25 <csarven> q+
16:16:27 <TimCole> ... editorially id should be shorter so easier to read
16:16:37 <TimCole> ack bigbluehat
16:16:41 <ivan> q+
16:17:41 <TimCole> bigbluehat: For javascript id on script tags become global variable. Is id on script tag referring to contents of the script?
16:17:56 <TimCole> ivan: really it is representing a point in the DOM tree, not the content
16:18:28 <TimCole> ack csarven
16:19:13 <TimCole> csarven: +1 to focus on what needs to be shown in the illustration
16:19:27 <TimCole> ... so my example also needs to be trimmed down
16:20:28 <TimCole> ... re whether should use HTML frag id, one case is that the html is the complete annotation (RDFa example)
16:20:43 <TimCole> ... so what would be the case when you have multiple annotations in same HTML doc
16:20:44 <csarven> http://csarven.ca/web-science-from-404-to-200#2055991574
16:21:38 <ivan> q+
16:21:39 <TimCole> ... the marginalia is added into the document
16:22:13 <TimCole> ... maybe useful to differentiate between annotations that do exist externally and those only inthe document
16:22:48 <TimCole> ... when annotation only exists in the document, and you have multiple, you need to use frag
16:22:58 <TimCole> ack ivan
16:23:48 <TimCole> ivan: for me the natural thing is annotation is disjoint
16:23:56 <TimCole> ... describing both cases would be good
16:24:49 <bigbluehat> +1 to RDFa Lite support
16:24:52 <TimCole> ... agree RDFa would be better if re-formatted. Could the example be expressed as RDFa Lite
16:25:17 <TimCole> ... there are tools that understand RDFa, but not necessarily understand full RDF
16:26:07 <TimCole> csarven: Will see if I can use RDFa Lite for the example in the document; could also talk about when full RDF is required
16:26:48 <TimCole> q+
16:26:48 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-lite/#respecContents
16:27:23 <TimCole> ivan: about is not in RDFa, resource instead sometimes
16:27:46 <TimCole> ... the number of prefixes maybe could be reduced?
16:28:02 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/2011/rdfa-context/rdfa-1.1
16:28:08 <bigbluehat> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-core/#s_initialcontexts
16:28:37 <TimCole> csarven: remind reader how the context has to be handled differently in RDFa than json-ld?
16:29:05 <TimCole> ... motivation for including is to support potential copy-paste
16:29:36 <TimCole> ivan: happy to go through document as editorial check
16:29:49 <TimCole> ack TimCole
16:30:28 <TimCole> TimCole: Would it be useful for RDFa to show how it distills and can be framed into json-ld that looks like the model
16:32:33 <TimCole> q?
16:34:53 <TimCole> ivan: semantically the json-ld example has a problem in trying to use the script identity as the identity of the annotation.
16:35:43 <csarven> q+
16:37:11 <TimCole> azaroth: no requirement that annotation id be de-referenceable in model or vocab
16:37:55 <TimCole> ack csarven
16:38:52 <TimCole> csarven: whether any of the annotation URIs should be derefernceable ... so should be okay for the Note
16:39:01 <azaroth> From the model, the only requirement is that it MUST have an IRI as an id
16:39:11 <azaroth> It could be urn:uuid:1234-...
16:39:40 <azaroth> Dereferencability comes from https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-protocol/#annotation-retrieval
16:39:41 <TimCole> ... id on script happens to be the same, not clear what that means
16:40:25 <TimCole> ... so not really a requirement to be de-referenceable
16:41:37 <TimCole> ... one other use case, adding json-ld as supplemental metadata, versus duplicative text , e.g. author name appears in both
16:43:33 <takeshi> q+
16:43:43 <TimCole> ack takeshi
16:44:56 <ivan> q+
16:45:19 <TimCole> ack ivan
16:46:21 <TimCole> ivan: isolating annotation in a div element may be doable, but may be too much for this Note
16:46:50 <TimCole> ... so we should record Takeshi's example as a postponed issued on the Note for now
16:47:26 <TimCole> takeshi: will do
16:48:21 <TimCole> ivan: to recognize that the whole doc except the annotation div is the target would require more than current tools do.
16:50:40 <TimCole> TimCole: fix examples - Tim and Sarven; add example - Benjamin?
16:52:55 <TimCole> ... write down the issues and cautions - put them somewhere and then reogranize
16:53:37 <TimCole> ... text has to be written around the examples, once the examples are more readable
16:54:16 <TimCole> ... add in more references as needed
16:55:42 <TimCole> ivan: timeline - PR ends 14 Feb.
16:56:14 <TimCole> ... if no issues time to publish Rec minimal
16:56:41 <TimCole> ... expect 21 Feb could be target for publishing Rec and Selector Note
16:56:56 <TimCole> ... This Note should also be published
16:57:09 <TimCole> ... Both Notes will need votes
16:57:51 <TimCole> ... can we get this note ready in time
16:58:58 <TimCole> ... need complete rough draft by 3 Feb, cleanup week of 6 Feb, final by 10 Feb
16:59:35 <TimCole> ... don't have to have real implementations.
17:01:43 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/27-annotation-minutes.html ivan
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