15:25:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
15:25:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-irc
15:25:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:25:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
15:25:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:25:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:25:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:25:07 <trackbot> Date: 26 January 2017
15:25:29 <allanj> present:
15:25:40 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:25:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:25:49 <allanj> Chair: Jim
15:26:26 <allanj> agenda?
15:38:56 <allanj> Agenda+ FPWD of WCAG 2.1 coming up.
15:38:58 <allanj> Agenda+ Reports from SC Managers
15:42:17 <allanj> present+
15:44:43 <allanj> Agenda+ combined SC font, color, spacing https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Text_to_Combine_79,_78,_74#Proposal_19:_No_loss_of_content_or_functionality_.28Gregg.27s_font_family.2C_Alastair.27s_Color.2C_Wayne.27s_Spacing_Metrics.29
15:52:22 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:57:50 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
16:00:49 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
16:01:04 <JohnRochford> BRB
16:01:28 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:28 <Zakim> Present: allanj
16:01:37 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
16:01:38 <laura> present+ Laura
16:01:50 <shawn> Present+ Wayne, Shawn, Laura, JohnR, ScottM
16:02:34 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
16:02:41 <JohnRochford> present+
16:02:56 <alastairc> Is anyone else getting a webex error? "Cisco WebEx had a problem processing your request. Contact support or your administrator and provide the following error tracking ID"
16:03:32 <shawn> present+ Glenda
16:03:40 <shawn> s/Is anyone else getting a webex error? "Cisco WebEx had a problem processing your request. Contact support or your administrator and provide the following error tracking ID"/ /
16:04:35 <JohnRochford> Sean, use https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mf593f4e1a73476b329f8348e58f53ffd
16:05:02 <shawn> s/Sean, use /
16:05:04 <allanj> s/Sean, use https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mf593f4e1a73476b329f8348e58f53ffd/
16:05:28 <ScottM> My link worked but I had to type in meeting numbers and stuff
16:05:35 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:05:37 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
16:05:49 <Wayne> present+ wayne
16:05:50 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
16:06:03 <shawn> present+ AlastairC
16:06:09 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:09 <Zakim> Present: allanj, Laura, Wayne, Shawn, JohnR, ScottM, JohnRochford, Glenda, AlastairC
16:06:11 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
16:06:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "FPWD of WCAG 2.1 coming up." taken up [from allanj]
16:06:20 <shawn> present- JohnR
16:06:29 <allanj> scribe: JohnRochford
16:06:51 <JohnRochford> Jim: The first public working draft is coming up.
16:07:13 <erich> erich has joined #lvtf
16:07:14 <JohnRochford> Laura: I think it's the end of February.
16:07:22 <shawn> present+ ErichM
16:07:29 <JohnRochford> present+ erich
16:07:42 <shawn> present- erich
16:08:06 <allanj> zakim, open item 2
16:08:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Reports from SC Managers" taken up [from allanj]
16:08:22 <JohnRochford> Searn, Erich is logged in as erich, not ErichM
16:08:54 <allanj> Topic: Printing
16:09:11 <shawn> s/Searn, Erich is logged in as erich, not ErichM/ /
16:09:19 <JohnRochford> Ah, thanks.
16:10:13 <JohnRochford> Erich: Chatter on SC font family and SC text color are being merged with SC scripting.
16:10:48 <JohnRochford> Erich: I have been trying to facilitate discussion as SC manager.
16:11:05 <Glenda> SC Manager Role: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Managers_Phase1#SC_Manager_Role
16:12:12 <JohnRochford> Laura: SC font and SC text color are so similar, they should be merged.
16:12:15 <shawn> q+
16:13:29 <JohnRochford> Jim and Alistair discussing print features of Safari.
16:14:03 <allanj> ack s
16:15:13 <JohnRochford> Shawn: presented use case for discussion
16:15:32 <laura> s/SC scripting/SC spacing/
16:15:47 <JohnRochford> Thanks, Laura.
16:15:48 <shawn> Use Case - e.g., user changes line-height with UserCSS, then wants to print it. (Think this works on most/all browsers, but not on some other technology user agents.)
16:17:43 <shawn> s/line-height/line-height & font
16:17:48 <JohnRochford> s/Alistair /Alastair
16:18:10 <shawn> s/technology user agents.)/technology user agents -- so authors need to provide format that does this.)
16:18:47 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Printing from PDFs is really a problem.
16:19:11 <JohnRochford> Shawn: That's what this is trying to address.
16:20:29 <allanj> Topic: combination of Font, Color, Spacing
16:20:32 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Text_to_Combine_79,_78,_74
16:21:05 <JohnRochford> Laura: Latest issue is 19, ability to override.
16:22:06 <JohnRochford> Laura: Metrics are needed for each one.
16:23:00 <JohnRochford> Alastair: Just because the user can modify does not mean the web site will work afterward.
16:24:53 <allanj> to be testable, had to have some metrics. color = black/white then 99% of all other color combinations should work
16:26:02 <JohnRochford> Laura: Proposal 17 has all of Alastair's metrics in it, including using Comic Sans
16:26:55 <allanj> perhaps use verdana (wide font)
16:27:04 <JohnRochford> Wayne, Alastair, Laura agree Verdana are similar to Comic Sans
16:27:23 <JohnRochford> s/are /is
16:27:43 <Glenda> From the ACAA “Characters displayed on the screen must be in a sans serif font. Characters must be 3/16 inch (4.8 mm) high minimum based on the uppercase letter I.”
16:29:54 <shawn> +1 for Verdana
16:29:58 <allanj> need to just use a "web safe font"
16:30:04 <Glenda> q+
16:30:05 <allanj> +1 for verdana
16:30:33 <allanj> ack G
16:31:14 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Talking about a requirement of the Air Carriers' Act.
16:31:33 <Glenda> ACAA = Air Carrier Access Act
16:32:52 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Actually required holding a ruler to the screen.
16:35:01 <alastairc> https://alastairc.ac/2013/02/how-to-hold-your-ipad/
16:35:10 <JohnRochford> q+
16:35:35 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:36:17 <allanj> definition of a pixel: https://alastairc.ac/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/pixel-distance-graph.png
16:37:30 <allanj> ack J
16:38:16 <JohnRochford> Jim: Next - Laura's comment on line height.
16:38:21 <allanj> line-height of all text to 1.36, letter-spacing to 0.03em, and word-spacing to 0.07em?
16:39:36 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Do we need to add a line after 1.36?
16:40:03 <allanj> line height is a unit less measurement
16:40:16 <JohnRochford> Glenda: It could be easily misinterpreted.
16:40:58 <allanj> shawn: line-height 1.5
16:41:24 <JohnRochford> Jim: Word spacing seems really small to me.
16:42:11 <JohnRochford> Wayne: This seems more like a technique than a SC.
16:42:28 <JohnRochford> Alastair: Agrees with Wayne.
16:44:51 <JohnRochford> Wayne: This could be applied at the element level.
16:44:57 <alastairc> My process email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JanMar/0418.html
16:45:01 <JohnRochford> Jim: Agrees with Wayne.
16:46:07 <JohnRochford> Jim: We have some issues with this SC wording, but it will morph some more.
16:47:09 <laura> q+
16:47:46 <JohnRochford> Laura: Change the line height to 1.5?
16:47:58 <JohnRochford> +1 to 1.5
16:48:17 <allanj> Alastair: the SC is not restrictive. its just a base line to begin testing to see what breaks
16:48:40 <alastairc> suggest 1.5 / 0.05 (letter) / 0.1 (word)
16:48:44 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Will investigate line height and get back to Laura.
16:48:51 <shawn> [ Shawn is looking at data on leading. Some say up to 2.0. Shawn will put info on wiki page for folks to point to.]
16:48:54 <allanj> +1 to leaving letter and word spacing as is
16:49:15 <allanj> ack L
16:50:07 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/References#Leading
16:50:32 <alastairc> 1+
16:50:35 <alastairc> q+
16:50:49 <allanj> ack a
16:51:44 <allanj> if we apply max values for spacing will break things. perhaps choose a moderate level
16:51:48 <JohnRochford> Alastair: 2.0 would break most web sites - we should push for a moderate amount
16:53:18 <Glenda> +1 to setting a moderate baseline (that makes a difference)
16:53:19 <laura> Proposal 20:
16:53:20 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Text_to_Combine_79,_78,_74#Proposal_20:_No_loss_of_content_or_functionality_LVTF_Tweaks
16:53:55 <allanj> topic: interactive contrast elements
16:54:24 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/9
16:54:47 <alastairc> q+
16:55:00 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Investigating/comparing 4.5 to 1 and 3 to 1
16:55:07 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum)
16:55:26 <allanj> ack a
16:56:31 <JohnRochford> Shawn: We should defer overlap with COGA to next stage
16:56:54 <shawn> s/Shawn: We should defer overlap with COGA to next stage/Glenda: We should defer overlap with COGA to next stage
16:57:30 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:59:46 <Glenda> Take a screenshot and blow it up until you can see the pixels, and count. You do have to know whether your screen is high-DPI though.
16:59:46 <Glenda> For example, my MacBook is a 'retina' one, so when I take a screenshot it is double the resolution. I.e. my browser reports 1280px wide, but a screenshot of that comes out at 2560!
16:59:47 <Glenda> I also have a standard-res monitor I plug into as a second screen at work, so screenshots on that are 'normal' sized...
17:00:43 <Glenda>  I would use the browser to add a 3px border around the image, and see if it is the same or bigger. I would then screenshot it and expand the image if I'm not sure. (See the attached, the outer red line is from the browser.)
17:01:52 <ScottM> should we use points instead?
17:02:14 <allanj> Q=
17:03:09 <ScottM> q+
17:04:00 <JohnRochford> Glenda: On Web Developer on Chrome, under Misc, is a ruler
17:04:16 <Glenda> There is a Display Ruler under Web Developer look under Miscellaneous (in Chrome)
17:06:51 <allanj> ack s
17:07:35 <Glenda> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2010/04/a_pixel_is_not.html
17:07:45 <alastairc> Or video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wscVOXjIzQ
17:09:29 <JohnRochford> Scott: Points are related to a physical size.
17:10:11 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Points are not consistent across resolutions and screen sizes.
17:10:45 <alastairc> See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JanMar/0248.html
17:13:32 <laura>  rrsagent, make minutes
17:13:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html laura
17:13:38 <JohnRochford> Alastair: CSS pixel is the most reliable measurement across resolutions and screen sizes.
17:15:28 <JohnRochford> Wayne: An absolute point does not exist any more on the web.
17:18:21 <allanj> topic: Informational Graphic Issue 9
17:19:10 <alastairc> Content can be resized to 400% without loss of content, functionality or requiring two-dimensional scrolling, except for parts of the content where fixed spatial layout is essential to use or meaning.
17:19:19 <JohnRochford> Alastair: Resize text is now shorter than it was.
17:20:18 <JohnRochford> Alastair: We are down to one exception because we dropped mobile.
17:20:45 <JohnRochford> Jim: Do we have a manager for metadata on hover?
17:21:01 <JohnRochford> Wayne: I will take it.
17:21:10 <allanj> action: Wayne to manage metadata
17:21:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Manage metadata [on Wayne Dick - due 2017-02-02].
17:21:53 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75
17:22:45 <JohnRochford> Wayne: What's the status of the discussion on linearize?
17:23:05 <JohnRochford> Alastair: I don't think it's moved on.
17:23:54 <erich> got pulled to urgent matter, won't be able to rejoin FYI
17:24:43 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
17:28:00 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
17:28:00 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:28:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, Laura, Wayne, Shawn, JohnR, ScottM, JohnRochford, Glenda, AlastairC, ErichM
17:28:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:28:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
17:28:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:28:09 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-actions.rdf :
17:28:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wayne to manage metadata [1]
17:28:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/01/26-lvtf-irc#T17-21-10