IRC log of wai-wcag on 2017-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:45:16 [RRSAgent]
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15:45:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/24-wai-wcag-irc
15:45:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:45:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:45:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
15:45:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:45:21 [trackbot]
Date: 24 January 2017
15:45:27 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:45:27 [Zakim]
Present: AWK, JF, Laura, Pietro, Kathy, adam_solomon, marcjohlic, Greg_Lowney, Makoto, Lauriat, MikeGower, Jim_S, allanj, kirkwood, David-MacDonald, JohnRochford, Judy, erich,
15:45:30 [Zakim]
... Glenda, Detlev, Joshue108, Rachael, Mike_Pluke, shwetank, NeilMilliken, MichaelC, Wayne, Katie_Haritos-Shea, steverep, Mike, Elledge, jeanne, alastairc
15:45:39 [AWK]
Present: AWK
15:45:41 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:45:41 [Zakim]
Present: AWK
15:45:53 [AWK]
Zakim, agenda?
15:45:53 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:45:54 [Zakim]
1. Charter Update/Discussion [from interaccess]
15:45:54 [Zakim]
2. 'Proposal for modifying existing SC' https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/ [from interaccess]
15:45:54 [Zakim]
3. Update from SC managers [from interaccess]
15:45:54 [Zakim]
4. Virtual F2F: Jan 31st [from interaccess]
15:54:42 [Rick_Johnson]
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15:55:24 [laura]
laura has joined #wai-wcag
15:56:19 [Rick_Johnson]
present+
15:56:41 [Rick_Johnson]
new to the wcag meetings.... can someone share the webex password?
15:58:02 [interaccess]
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15:58:19 [interaccess]
trackbot, start meeting
15:58:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:58:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:58:25 [trackbot]
Date: 24 January 2017
15:58:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
15:58:34 [interaccess]
zakim, agenda?
15:58:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:58:35 [Zakim]
1. Charter Update/Discussion [from interaccess]
15:58:35 [Zakim]
2. 'Proposal for modifying existing SC' https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/ [from interaccess]
15:58:35 [Zakim]
3. Update from SC managers [from interaccess]
15:58:35 [Zakim]
4. Virtual F2F: Jan 31st [from interaccess]
15:59:04 [interaccess]
zakim, drop item 4
15:59:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Virtual F2F: Jan 31st, dropped
15:59:22 [interaccess]
agenda+ Virtual F2F: Date TBD
15:59:26 [interaccess]
zakim, agenda?
15:59:26 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:59:27 [Zakim]
1. Charter Update/Discussion [from interaccess]
15:59:27 [Zakim]
2. 'Proposal for modifying existing SC' https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/ [from interaccess]
15:59:27 [Zakim]
3. Update from SC managers [from interaccess]
15:59:27 [Zakim]
5. Virtual F2F: Date TBD [from interaccess]
15:59:41 [interaccess]
Chair: AWK
15:59:44 [David_MacDonald]
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16:00:06 [Lauriat_]
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16:00:06 [Greg]
Greg has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:13 [allanj]
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16:00:19 [Lauriat_]
Present+ Lauriat
16:00:34 [Greg]
present+ Greg_Lowney
16:00:41 [gowerm]
gowerm has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:55 [mattg]
present+ mattg
16:01:09 [JohnRochford]
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16:01:09 [Lisa_Seeman]
Lisa_Seeman has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:24 [Jan_]
Jan_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:55 [AWK]
Regrets+ Alastair, Srini, Bruce, jim_smith
16:02:23 [Rachael]
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16:02:38 [Rachael]
present+ Rachael
16:02:44 [gowerm]
present+ MikeGower
16:03:05 [Lisa_Seeman]
i have tried the password 3 times. i seem to be messing it up. Can somone ping it to me
16:03:19 [Makoto]
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16:03:21 [gowerm]
w3c
16:03:28 [jon_avila]
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16:03:34 [jon_avila]
present+jon_avila
16:03:45 [interaccess]
s/w3c/
16:03:47 [Kathy]
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16:03:50 [JF]
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16:03:55 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
16:03:59 [Makoto]
present+ Makoto
16:04:01 [JF]
Present+ JF
16:04:12 [Mike_Pluke]
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16:04:59 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #wai-wcag
16:05:00 [Lisa_Seeman]
ahh
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16:05:08 [kirkwood]
=kirkwood
16:05:14 [kirkwood]
+kirkwood
16:05:50 [JF]
zakim, who's here
16:05:50 [Zakim]
JF, you need to end that query with '?'
16:05:57 [JF]
zakim,who is here?
16:05:57 [Zakim]
Present: AWK, Rick_Johnson, Lauriat, Greg_Lowney, mattg, Rachael, MikeGower, jon_avila, Kathy, Makoto, JF, kirkwood
16:05:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shwetank, Wayne, Mike_Pluke, JF, Kathy, jon_avila, Makoto, Rachael, Jan_, Lisa_Seeman, JohnRochford, gowerm, allanj, Greg, Lauriat_, David_MacDonald, Joshue108, laura,
16:05:59 [Zakim]
... Rick_Johnson, RRSAgent, AWK, mattg, marcjohlic, kirkwood, MichaelC, Rossen, Zakim, yatil-away, trackbot
16:06:08 [marcjohlic]
present+ marcjohlic
16:06:22 [Lisa_Seeman]
Managed
16:06:24 [Wayne]
present+ Wayne
16:06:27 [laura]
present+ Laura
16:06:32 [Lisa_Seeman]
present+ Lisa
16:06:47 [Judy]
Judy has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:49 [david_macdonald_]
david_macdonald_ has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:56 [Joshue108]
present+ Joshue108
16:07:04 [MichaelC]
present+
16:07:20 [shwetank]
present +shwetank
16:07:40 [erich]
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16:07:51 [Mike_Pluke]
present+ Mike_Pluke
16:07:52 [AWK]
Scribe: Mike
16:07:54 [gowerm]
scribe:Mike
16:08:13 [erich]
present+ erich
16:08:22 [david_macdonald_]
present+ David_MacDonald
16:08:44 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 1
16:08:44 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Charter Update/Discussion" taken up [from interaccess]
16:08:49 [marcjohlic]
s/W3C/
16:09:13 [Joshue108]
s/Mark/Marc
16:09:40 [gowerm]
Rick Johnson was introduced.
16:09:54 [Judy]
present+ Judy
16:10:06 [JohnRochford]
present+
16:10:56 [steverep]
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16:11:00 [MichaelC]
present+ Shwetank_Dixit
16:11:19 [gowerm]
Shwetank Dixit was introduced.
16:11:26 [steverep]
present+steverep
16:11:37 [david_macdonald_]
welcome Shwetank
16:11:37 [gowerm]
zakim, take up item 1
16:11:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Charter Update/Discussion" taken up [from interaccess]
16:11:49 [Judy]
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16:11:51 [Glenda]
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16:11:55 [Joshue108]
http://awkawk.github.io/ag-charter.html
16:12:23 [MichaelC]
^ Proposed revised charter with changes
16:13:14 [jon_avila]
What happens if the one org won't drop their formal objection until they get what they want?
16:15:16 [gowerm]
Andrew K: Big issue we have right now is around the incubation topic for what we're calling Silver.
16:15:37 [MoeKraft]
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present+ MoeKraft
16:15:47 [KimD]
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16:16:18 [gowerm]
Andrew K: Hope to wrap up discussion within the week.
16:17:19 [gowerm]
Andrew K: additions to charter are surrounded by add tags and are in orange
16:17:39 [Lisa_Seeman]
q+
16:18:22 [Judy]
q+
16:18:51 [KimD]
+KimD
16:18:53 [AWK]
ack ju
16:20:05 [gowerm]
Judy: Clarifies the weighting. Is there strong overall support? Are there well thought out reasons for unresolved matters?
16:20:09 [jon_avila]
thanks
16:20:45 [gowerm]
Andrew K: Does the w3c have facts about charters?
16:22:07 [Joshue108]
q?
16:22:11 [gowerm]
Judy: W3c encouraged lively discussions about charters in last couple of years. There is more of a risk of formal objections, so it's not unusual.
16:22:14 [AWK]
ack lisa
16:23:26 [gowerm]
Lisa S: We may find we are unable to do what we want. Proposes an extension model be put in charter.
16:24:29 [Joshue108]
q+
16:25:08 [Joshue108]
-q
16:25:20 [gowerm]
Andrew: Too late to alter tactic. It is unlikely that everything any task force wants will get in. There will be additional work down the road.
16:26:19 [AWK]
ack j
16:27:01 [gowerm]
Josh: Concurs. Too late to alter course.
16:28:33 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 2
16:28:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "'Proposal for modifying existing SC' https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/" taken up [from interaccess]
16:28:35 [gowerm]
zakim, next item
16:28:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, gowerm
16:28:56 [AWK]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/ModifySCs/results
16:29:26 [gowerm]
TOPIC 2: Proposal for modifying existing SC
16:29:50 [Judy]
Judy has left #wai-wcag
16:30:09 [gowerm]
s/TOPIC 2/TOPIC 1
16:30:33 [Lisa_Seeman]
Q+
16:30:53 [gowerm]
Andrew: In a month, we'll have a better idea of interference with existing SC language.
16:31:26 [Mike_Pluke]
Q+
16:32:15 [gowerm]
Andrew: Reviewed results., 20 people agreed with proposal. A few people say no changes at all. 6 say consider now.
16:32:31 [AWK]
ack lisa
16:33:06 [gowerm]
Lisa: Wants clarity on proposals that are modified SC.
16:33:29 [gowerm]
+1
16:35:17 [gowerm]
Andrew: Uses 1.4.8 as example. Proposal to modify a few points and add one. Recommends making a new SC with the one bullet and then some redundant information for what has changed.
16:35:44 [Pietro]
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16:36:31 [Joshue108]
q?
16:37:24 [Pietro]
present+ Pietro
16:37:28 [gowerm]
Lisa: Wants clarification on what SC need to address. Example of time out she gave last week, where it is almost exactly the same. Do you write Redundant?
16:37:34 [Joshue108]
q+ to say we must apply common sense to the architecture of 2.1
16:37:51 [Pietro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:37:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/24-wai-wcag-minutes.html Pietro
16:39:05 [gowerm]
Andrew: Uses an example of changing colour contrast to 5:1. Attach a note saying "Similar to SC ___ " but should be drafted as a standalone SC.
16:39:38 [gowerm]
q+
16:41:48 [AWK]
ack mike
16:42:03 [JF]
Q+
16:42:25 [david_macdonald]
david_macdonald has joined #wai-wcag
16:42:52 [gowerm]
Mike Pluke: Example of migrating from AAA to AA by making an exception. Two factors: few require AAA, but even if they did, it would have a more restricted scope, so automatically met.
16:42:55 [david_macdonald]
Present+ david_macdonald
16:43:39 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:43:39 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say we must apply common sense to the architecture of 2.1
16:44:38 [gowerm]
Josh: Need to apply common sense to architecture of 2.1. Need to be aware of potential to change existing language. But that is a big deal.
16:45:12 [Mike_Elledge]
Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
16:45:43 [AWK]
q+ to say that some SC (e.g. 2.4.4 and 2.4.9 already exist with only an exception differentiating them)
16:47:04 [AWK]
ack gow
16:47:34 [AWK]
gowerm: trying to review SC, and it is hard when a rewrite is needed
16:48:00 [david_macdonald]
q+
16:48:14 [AWK]
ack jf
16:48:20 [Joshue108]
s/. But that is a big deal./ the potential for us to do that, is a big deal and I'd like to group to digest that.
16:49:11 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_SC_Numbering#Non-Specific_Feedback
16:49:34 [gowerm]
David: looking at architecture is crucial. Adoption and transition path is important.
16:49:56 [AWK]
ack awk
16:49:56 [Zakim]
AWK, you wanted to say that some SC (e.g. 2.4.4 and 2.4.9 already exist with only an exception differentiating them)
16:50:12 [Joshue108]
q?
16:50:34 [JF]
s/David: looking at architecture/JF: looking at architecture
16:51:17 [gowerm]
Andrew: we already have SC where the difference is an exception. 2.4.4 versus 2.4.9. AA has exception, AAA is broader.
16:51:30 [david_macdonald]
1.2.2 and 1.2.4 Captions prerecorded and live
16:52:13 [david_macdonald]
1.2.3 and 1.2.7 audio description has an alternative a level A no option on AA
16:52:34 [gowerm]
Andrew: Concerns around usability can be addressed afterwards.
16:53:03 [david_macdonald]
1.4.5 images of text and 1.4.9 Images of text no exceiption.
16:53:31 [gowerm]
Andrew: Request was new candidates be brought in as new items, not modifications.
16:53:37 [david_macdonald]
2.2.1 timing adjustable, and 2.2.3 no timing
16:54:13 [Joshue108]
+1 to AWK
16:54:28 [david_macdonald]
2.4.4 link text and 2.4.9 no exception
16:56:18 [erich]
Hi All - sorry had hard stop, will provide my SC Mgr updates (74 text color, 76 printing customized text, 79 font family) to the list
16:57:20 [AWK]
ack david
16:58:27 [Lisa_Seeman]
Q+
16:58:36 [JF]
Q+ to voice strong opposition to "replace"
16:58:43 [gowerm]
David: Repeat the SC with the added language and include a note.
16:58:47 [AWK]
ack lisa
16:59:37 [AWK]
ack jf
16:59:37 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to voice strong opposition to "replace"
17:00:18 [AWK]
AWK thinks that David was talking about "repeat and replace"
17:00:28 [jon_avila]
extend
17:00:38 [Mike_Elledge]
+1
17:01:25 [gowerm]
Michael: We can give the same number to something different in 2.1 as opposed to 2.0. 2.2.2 in 2.0 may be different than 2.0 in 2.1
17:02:02 [gowerm]
Michael: As we are creating the things, we always have the additions and deductions tracked, and you have all changes documented.
17:02:25 [gowerm]
s/things/criiteria
17:03:14 [gowerm]
Michael: Suggests leaving numbering off the first version.
17:04:56 [AWK]
q?
17:04:58 [gowerm]
q+
17:05:06 [AWK]
ack g
17:07:17 [Lisa_Seeman]
Q+
17:09:06 [Mike_Pluke]
Q+
17:09:34 [AWK]
ack lisa
17:09:43 [AWK]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/51
17:09:48 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
17:10:23 [gowerm]
Mike G: So if we are not going to consider modificatinos, what do we do with the candidates that ARE modifications
17:11:04 [gowerm]
Lisa: Change the 1.4.8 and shortname and we can consider it, correct?
17:13:05 [Mike_Pluke]
Q+
17:13:18 [alastairc]
alastairc has joined #wai-wcag
17:15:30 [gowerm]
q+
17:16:47 [JF]
a change to an existing SC will (IMHO) necessitate a new SC number, so that orgs can track changes (migration) from 2.0 to 2.1
17:18:46 [AWK]
ack mik
17:20:06 [david_macdonald]
It appears the new #78 and #58 cover much of #51
17:20:14 [Joshue108]
q+
17:20:26 [Joshue108]
q-
17:21:29 [Lisa_Seeman]
Ack lisa
17:21:58 [AWK]
ack gow
17:22:02 [AWK]
ack jos
17:22:41 [marcjohlic]
+1 would welcome the extra guidance
17:22:59 [JohnRochford]
+1 to separate meeting for SC managers
17:23:01 [gowerm]
Josh: suggests holding another meeting with SC managers to clarify.
17:23:12 [gowerm]
+1
17:23:21 [Lisa_Seeman]
+1
17:23:44 [Joshue108]
Thanks for the feedback.
17:24:24 [Lisa_Seeman]
lets have a quick voat on the call
17:24:34 [Lisa_Seeman]
q+
17:24:42 [AWK]
ack lisa
17:24:57 [Wayne]
+1
17:25:21 [gowerm]
Draft RESOLUTION: we will NOT consider modify existing SCs at this point (while draft 2.1 SCs are being worked on) until we see what makes the final cut for this publishing round.
17:25:41 [Lisa_Seeman]
-1
17:26:08 [JohnRochford]
-1
17:26:13 [kirkwood]
-1
17:26:20 [Wayne]
+1
17:26:21 [gowerm]
Draft 2 Resolution: we will NOT consider modify existing SCs at this point (while draft 2.1 SCs are being worked on) in this round.
17:26:22 [KimD]
+1
17:26:24 [JF]
+1
17:26:27 [david_macdonald]
+1
17:26:28 [marcjohlic]
+1
17:26:30 [Jan_]
-1
17:26:39 [jamesn]
+1
17:26:40 [Mike_Elledge]
+1
17:26:45 [gowerm]
Draft 3 resolution: we will NOT consider modify existing SCs at this point (while draft 2.1 SCs are being worked on).
17:26:56 [Mike_Pluke]
+1
17:27:01 [Makoto]
+1
17:27:06 [MichaelC]
+1
17:27:06 [gowerm]
I've just trimmed off the end language
17:27:09 [gowerm]
+1
17:27:09 [Kathy]
+1
17:27:12 [JF]
+1 for draft resolution #3
17:27:43 [allanj]
+1
17:27:52 [jon_avila]
+1
17:27:53 [laura]
+1
17:28:15 [steverep]
-1
17:28:31 [gowerm]
q+
17:28:34 [Joshue108]
+1 to modifying
17:29:51 [Joshue108]
s/+1 to modifying/
17:29:54 [jon_avila]
I assume this doesn't preclude us from have the proposed text as a new SC
17:30:24 [david_macdonald]
q+
17:30:34 [JF]
Q+
17:32:00 [gowerm]
RESOLUTION: we will NOT consider modify existing SCs at this point (while draft 2.1 SCs are being worked on). We will set up a time for additional discussion for SC managers.
17:32:14 [JF]
ack me
17:32:17 [david_macdonald]
to say, this decision would not be the reason for leaving out SCs
17:32:41 [Joshue108]
present+ Joshue108
17:32:41 [Mike_Elledge]
Present+ Mike Elledge
17:32:42 [laura]
present+ Laura
17:32:56 [JF]
Q?
17:33:04 [AWK]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:33:04 [Zakim]
Present: AWK, Rick_Johnson, Lauriat, Greg_Lowney, mattg, Rachael, MikeGower, jon_avila, Kathy, Makoto, JF, kirkwood, marcjohlic, Wayne, Laura, Lisa, Joshue108, MichaelC,
17:33:06 [jamesn]
present+ JamesNurthen
17:33:07 [Zakim]
... Mike_Pluke, erich, David_MacDonald, Judy, JohnRochford, Shwetank_Dixit, steverep, MoeKraft, KimD, Pietro, Mike, Elledge
17:33:13 [gowerm]
trackbot, end meeting
17:33:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:33:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Rick_Johnson, Lauriat, Greg_Lowney, mattg, Rachael, MikeGower, jon_avila, Kathy, Makoto, JF, kirkwood, marcjohlic, Wayne, Laura, Lisa,
17:33:16 [Zakim]
... Joshue108, MichaelC, Mike_Pluke, erich, David_MacDonald, Judy, JohnRochford, Shwetank_Dixit, steverep, MoeKraft, KimD, Pietro, Mike, Elledge, JamesNurthen
17:33:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:33:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/24-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
17:33:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:33:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items