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12:24:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/16-poe-irc
12:24:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:24:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:24:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:25:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:25:00 <trackbot> Date: 16 January 2017
12:25:03 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:25:16 <renato> present+ renato
12:25:33 <renato> Chair: renato
12:25:41 <renato> Regrets: Stuart, Ben
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12:30:20 <phila> regrets+ Stuart, Ben, Sabrina, Simon
12:31:13 <ivan> Present+
12:31:50 <phila> present+
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12:32:55 <Brian_Ulicny> present+
12:33:58 <Serena> present+ Serena
12:34:06 <Serena> scribenick Serena
12:34:08 <michaelS> present+ michaelS
12:34:14 <Serena> Scribe: Serena
12:34:20 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/01/09-poe-minutes.html
12:34:34 <Serena> Proposal: approve last meeting minutes
12:34:49 <Serena> Resolution: last minutes meeting approved
12:34:58 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/labels/Needs%20WG%20Decision
12:35:06 <Serena> Issues: https://github.com/w3c/poe/labels/Needs%20WG%20Decision
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12:35:31 <CarolineB> present+ CarolineB
12:35:33 <renato> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poe-wg/2017Jan/0004.html
12:35:34 <Serena> renato: let's start with issue #82
12:35:51 <Serena> … https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/82
12:37:01 <Serena> … in the example multiple actions, parties and assets are expressed at policy level
12:37:10 <Serena> … it's basically a shortcut
12:37:17 <michaelS> q+
12:37:24 <Serena> q?
12:37:59 <Serena> … we end up wit the same thing if we expand the "short" version of the policy
12:38:15 <Serena> … this is the proposal
12:38:36 <michaelS> q-
12:38:45 <phila> q+
12:39:05 <Serena> phila: it makes sense, how are you going to express ?
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12:39:25 <Serena> renato: the narrative could be that the two policies are semantically equivalent
12:39:58 <Serena> phila: this should be added into a Processing section in the IM
12:40:31 <Serena> … these are semantically equivalent and you have to process them in this way
12:40:56 <Serena> q?
12:41:00 <Serena> ack phila
12:41:28 <Serena> phila: my concern is purely in terms about how to state that
12:41:59 <Serena> … there should be a section defining Processing procedures
12:42:24 <Brian_Ulicny> No objection to example.
12:42:37 <renato> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poe-wg/2017Jan/0005.html
12:42:41 <Brian_Ulicny> No objection to proposal.
12:43:02 <Serena> renato: the question could be "in this case, how does it work with inheritance?"
12:43:44 <Serena> … inheritance is something we support but we mean more something like inclusion than the standard meaning of inheritance
12:43:56 <Serena> … e.g., in programming langauges
12:44:42 <Serena> … the proposal is to copy in the child policy the properties of the father
12:45:45 <Serena> … then if the full expansion is preferred, then we go back to the previous example
12:45:47 <michaelS> q+
12:45:51 <Brian_Ulicny> Comment: q+
12:45:57 <Serena> q?
12:46:03 <Serena> ack michaelS
12:46:33 <Serena> michaelS: did you check if you obtain the same result if you expand first and then you inherit?
12:46:44 <Serena> … it might be the same, but we need to check
12:47:01 <michaelS> q-
12:47:10 <Serena> renato: yes, we can look at that
12:47:26 <Brian_Ulicny> q+
12:47:38 <Serena> ack Brian_Ulicny
12:47:55 <Serena> Brian_Ulicny: the kind of inheritance is standard in OWL
12:48:56 <Serena> renato: we will implement these changes in the editors draft
12:49:34 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/48
12:49:41 <Serena> renato: issue to be discussed #48
12:50:19 <Serena> … validity data expressed through constraints
12:50:47 <phila> +1 to not re-defining Dublin Core :-)
12:50:52 <Serena> … my recommendation is to point to another ontology defining them
12:51:01 <Serena> … any views?
12:51:09 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:52:06 <michaelS> q+
12:52:10 <Serena> … a constraint is part of a rule, thus we need to apply validity dates to all the rules in the policy
12:52:13 <Serena> ack michaelS
12:52:35 <Serena> michaelS: it would be good to have a definition of what a time range validity means?
12:54:55 <Serena> renato: I mean temporal constraints on the policy
12:55:12 <Serena> … it was based on the UC 4
12:55:21 <michaelS> q-
12:55:36 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Use_Cases#POE.UC.04_Technical_documents_rules_for_business_process_regulatory_compliance
12:56:06 <phila> Serena: We had differnet versions. It was at the policy level, to be able to say when there is a change
12:56:50 <phila> ... *this* policy has been overtaken by *this* policy
12:58:00 <phila> q+
12:58:49 <Serena> renato: we have the temporal constraints and we use other ontologies like DC for the other information
12:59:05 <Serena> phila: the policy is unbounded
12:59:45 <phila> ack me
13:00:16 <Serena> renato: if there is no date, we assume there are no constraints about that
13:02:40 <Serena> … should we say something about policy identifiers?
13:02:52 <Serena> q?
13:03:40 <victor> which is the use case raising this?
13:03:52 <Serena> UC4
13:03:52 <renato> #uc04
13:04:27 <Serena> phila: we defer to the DC semantics, for versioning
13:04:47 <Serena> renato: we will explicitly state that
13:05:01 <phila> The terms dcterms:replaces and dcterms:isReplacedBy are both defined
13:05:25 <Serena> phila: that should be part of the processing part
13:05:39 <Serena> renato: good point
13:06:23 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues
13:07:15 <Serena> q+
13:07:42 <phila> ack s
13:07:49 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/63
13:08:14 <phila> Serena: We discussed issue 63
13:08:29 <victor> about https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/63 i provided several examples with minimal impact on the model, I think
13:08:46 <victor> q+
13:08:50 <Serena> renato: we need to find a way with minimum impact on the IM
13:08:54 <Serena> ack victor
13:09:04 <phila> RRSAgent, make minutes public
13:09:04 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', phila.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:09:22 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:09:30 <Serena> victor: the change is minimum, only two operands
13:09:32 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:09:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/16-poe-minutes.html phila
13:09:58 <Serena> renato: what about duties?
13:10:24 <Serena> victor: I forgot about that
13:10:40 <Serena> renato: everything is in constraints in dities
13:11:25 <Serena> … my proposal is not to do this because it just increase the complexity of the model. Technically we can do it.
13:11:56 <Serena> … in duties, we need to define left and right operands for duties
13:12:37 <Serena> … we thought there could be other ontologies doing that, but it does not seem so
13:13:21 <Serena> victor: I have to say that I'm not strongly supporting that, it's syntactic sugar.
13:15:13 <Serena> renato: we can note the WG that we are reconsidering this, we need some strong cases to continue with this requirement
13:15:55 <Serena> … the other issues are doable in the next week or two
13:16:04 <Serena> … any other issue?
13:16:19 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:16:24 <Serena> we move on the deliverables plan
13:16:49 <phila> Topic: Deliverables Plan
13:17:21 <Serena> renato: by next Monday we have a first version of the editors draft
13:17:39 <Serena> … then call for reviews
13:17:41 <victor> I applied changes in the morning (merging the branch issue84), that you can see in the vocabs page https://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/
13:18:26 <Serena> … the deliverables wiki page, we then have to call for one review (widest community possible)
13:18:41 <Serena> … asking for feedback, comments, etc
13:18:52 <Serena> … we need a collection of groups to contact
13:19:08 <Serena> … at the moment we have few groups listed there
13:19:35 <Serena> … do we need bigger groups?
13:20:49 <Serena> phila: you just list the groups to contact, we created a template email, and we reconded on the wiki when we sent this email to
13:21:21 <Serena> … making a structured effort should be enough
13:21:35 <Serena> … we need to include horizontal reviews as well
13:21:36 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Deliverables
13:22:19 <ivan> q=
13:22:21 <ivan> q+
13:22:49 <Serena> ack i
13:23:20 <Serena> ivan: one small remark, I agree that accessibility is not an issue here, but we need to contact everyone
13:23:54 <ivan> q+
13:24:19 <Serena> ivan: in my experience, when it comes to reporting then Github is your friend
13:24:49 <Serena> … using a separate label for each group contacted, and ask for issues there
13:25:00 <Serena> … it is very easy at the end to report
13:25:50 <Serena> renato: any other business?
13:26:03 <renato>  https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:London2017
13:26:16 <phila> q+
13:26:22 <phila> ack i
13:26:29 <Serena> ack phila
13:27:10 <Serena> phila: EU project where they express CC licenses in ODRL
13:27:25 <Serena> … CCRel they express CC licenses
13:28:01 <victor> q+
13:28:13 <Serena> renato: we did a profile together, but it was a while ago
13:28:24 <michaelS> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/work/cc/
13:28:32 <Serena> … if want to purely express CC semantics they can use CCRel and ODRL
13:28:37 <Serena> ack victor
13:29:04 <Serena> victor: I support the idea of expressing CC licenses in ODRL
13:29:33 <Serena> … each of the versions of licenses in Europe are incompatible, and ODRL can fill the gap
13:30:20 <Serena> renato: thanks everyone
13:30:24 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:30:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/16-poe-minutes.html phila
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13:30:40 <victor> present+victor
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