20:43:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sdwssn
20:43:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-irc
20:43:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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20:43:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:43:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:43:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:43:51 <trackbot> Date: 20 December 2016
20:44:05 <phila> s/Teleconference/SSN Sub Group Telco/
20:44:35 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:SSN-Telecon20161220
20:44:40 <phila> chair: Armin
20:45:16 <phila> regrets+ Krzysztof
20:48:23 <ClausStadler1> ClausStadler1 has joined #sdwssn
21:00:20 <RaulGarciaCastro> RaulGarciaCastro has joined #sdwssn
21:00:53 <phila> scribe: phila
21:00:57 <phila> scribeNick: phila
21:01:02 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #sdwssn
21:01:29 <kerry_> kerry_ has joined #sdwssn
21:01:49 <RaulGarciaCastro> present+ RaulGarciaCastro
21:02:12 <kerry_> present+ kerry
21:02:12 <SimonCox> present+ SimonCox
21:03:05 <laurent_oz> laurent_oz has joined #sdwssn
21:04:02 <ClausStadler1> present+ ClausStadler
21:04:32 <roba> roba has joined #sdwssn
21:04:32 <DanhLePhuoc> DanhLePhuoc has joined #sdwssn
21:05:24 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:05:55 <ahaller2> topic: Approving last meeting's minutes: https://www.w3.org/2016/12/06-sdwssn-minutes
21:06:12 <SimonCox> +1
21:06:13 <ahaller2> +1
21:06:29 <ClausStadler1> +1
21:06:44 <kerry_> +1
21:06:53 <ahaller2> topic: Patent Call
21:06:55 <phila> RESOLUTION:  lAst meeting's minutes approved https://www.w3.org/2016/12/06-sdwssn-minutes
21:07:04 <phila> Topic: Patent Call
21:07:26 <ahaller2> topic: Approving pending change requests on WD document and agree on frozen state for vote on 4th of January
21:07:46 <phila> present+
21:07:49 <SimonCox> SOrry - they are just testing the alarm - I'm still here
21:08:30 <phila> ahaller2: In Friday's F2F we were supposed to vote on the WD which we didn't manage. We agreed that Danh would approve pull requests for the Ed Draft so that we can work towards a vote on 4 Jan
21:08:45 <phila> ... We need to find a process. Perhaps creating a new branch etc?
21:08:55 <phila> ... But let's look at the remaining pull requests
21:09:10 <ahaller2> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/pulls
21:09:33 <phila> ahaller2: These are PRs. There was an e-mail from kerry saying that she was still working on the alignmente section formatting?
21:09:42 <phila> ... But there is a PR lefty from Kerry, no. 473
21:09:55 <ahaller2> q?
21:10:00 <SimonCox> Should I repeat the pull request to swap the sequence of the SSN/SOSA sections?
21:10:02 <phila> ahaller2: I've been looking at these, they look OK to me but Danh, you're in charge
21:10:12 <kerry_> q+
21:10:31 <phila> present+ Armin, Claus, Danh, Kerry, Laurent, Raul, Rob, Simon
21:10:36 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:10:37 <ChrisLittle_> ChrisLittle_ has joined #Sdwssn
21:10:39 <kerry_> q-
21:10:49 <SimonCox> q+
21:10:56 <ChrisLittle_> Present+
21:11:04 <phila> [NOTUC] to pulling into the merge PR 473
21:11:12 <phila> RRSAgent, pointer?
21:11:12 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-irc#T21-11-12
21:11:33 <kerry_> q+
21:12:09 <SimonCox> @phila - nah, you are just sanding behind a curtain
21:12:22 <laurent_oz> present+ laurent_oz
21:12:45 <phila> ahaller2: So there are no remaining pull requests
21:12:47 <kerry_> q+
21:12:54 <phila> ack s
21:12:56 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:13:11 <phila> SimonCox: On the process, when I looked at the SSN PRs, you had to read the titles to detect those.
21:13:28 <phila> ... It's probably helpful when creating a PR, prefix it with 'SSN'
21:13:32 <phila> ahaller2: That's a good idea
21:13:39 <ahaller2> +1 for SSN prefix in pull request
21:13:46 <phila> ack k
21:13:48 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:13:48 <RaulGarciaCastro> You can use labels
21:13:53 <SimonCox> q+
21:14:29 <phila> kerry_: I sent an e-mail late last night. You wanted me to do the layout without spaces. I took another run at it as people can't always maintain spaces when they edit docs (which I don't agree with)
21:14:49 <phila> ... I tried and failed, but if you'd like me to solve that problem then I'm happy to take another go at it.
21:14:58 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:14:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:15:09 <phila> ahaller2: Sorry, that was too late for me to see.
21:15:30 <phila> ... It's cut off a little in my browser. It's beyond the bounding box of the div container
21:15:35 <phila> ... we can fix it.
21:15:47 <phila> ... I think it's enbough if we fix it for the next version. I'd think it's OK as it is now.
21:15:52 <phila> q+
21:16:00 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:16:00 <phila> ack s
21:16:40 <phila> SimonCox: First thing I want to do is to offer my apologies for lack of understanding with GH and for the ensuing problem. All to do with me working on OWL Time and it all got into the same PR. Apologies.
21:17:16 <ahaller2> q+
21:17:18 <phila> SimonCox: That said... the change that the PR made, I think most people were happy with, which was swapping the order of the SOSA and SSN chapters
21:17:24 <phila> ... Is it appropriate to bring it up now
21:17:27 <phila> q- later
21:17:53 <kerry_> q+
21:18:09 <phila> ahaller2: I discussed this with Kerry. My concern was not around changing the order. Logically it makes sense. My concern is that it's such a big diff - the diff doesn't track the changes and just sees two new blocks
21:18:18 <phila> ... I was suggesting that an editor made that change
21:18:23 <phila> q-
21:18:39 <phila> ahaller2: Personally, I'm happy with the change.
21:18:45 <phila> ... I think Jano is too.
21:18:48 <phila> ack k
21:19:21 <phila> I'm happy to have it done. My only potential objection... it should be done by an editor... but I'd like it done cleanly, i.e. a standalone change.
21:19:25 <SimonCox> Can someone make a motion to do clean swap?
21:19:31 <phila> ... I'd have concerns if it got wrapped up in other things.
21:19:57 <phila> ahaller2: Can you make that change?
21:20:00 <laurent_oz> q+
21:20:01 <ahaller2> ack ahaller
21:20:05 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: Yes, I'll do that and then assign it to you
21:20:09 <ahaller2> ack laurent_oz
21:20:09 <phila> ack l
21:20:53 <kerry_> q+ to laurent's comment for the future
21:20:57 <phila> laurent_oz: About SOSA and SSN order. I'm OK too, but my general position, is that we should hide the division as much as possible, but it's a step in the right direction.
21:21:01 <kerry_> q-
21:21:08 <phila> ahaller2: What do you mean by hiding?
21:21:17 <phila> laurent_oz: Making the change not so prominent as it is now.
21:21:29 <phila> ... Much more about blending the SOSA and SSN
21:21:40 <phila> ... It could look too complicated if we're not careful
21:21:42 <ahaller2> q?
21:22:04 <phila> ahaller2: Are there any other changes?
21:22:10 <phila> ... Are we ready to freeze?
21:22:13 <phila> q+
21:22:18 <phila> ack me
21:22:19 <kerry_> q+
21:22:19 <ahaller2> ack phila
21:22:30 <phila> PROPOSED: That the order of the SOSA and SSN chapters be swapped
21:22:36 <kerry_> +1
21:22:36 <SimonCox> +1
21:22:37 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
21:22:37 <ahaller2> +1
21:22:42 <laurent_oz> +1
21:22:45 <phila> RESOLUTION: That the order of the SOSA and SSN chapters be swapped
21:22:49 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:22:56 <kerry_> q+
21:23:05 <phila> ack k
21:23:20 <phila> kerry_: Aggh!
21:23:33 <ahaller2> q?
21:23:46 <SimonCox> did the mouse eat her?
21:23:54 <phila> kerry_: Two other things. No fuss to be made.
21:24:20 <phila> kerry_: Backward compatibility with old SSN... not sure about what I proposed about this
21:24:25 <phila> q+
21:24:32 <SimonCox> q+
21:24:45 <phila> kerry_: I did something that I'm happy with but I'm not sure it's enough.
21:25:09 <phila> ... Also the change log, I wrote that. I'm not sure other editors have recorded their changes there. That might need looking at.
21:25:19 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/ns/ssn-bc
21:25:48 <phila> ahaller2: The 1st comment that Kerry made, was that this UI was used to make the alignment. But I think once these ...
21:25:59 <phila> ack p
21:26:00 <ahaller2> s/UI/URI
21:26:07 <phila> phila: Didn't undertand the 1st point
21:26:21 <phila> kerry_: There are 2 new ontologies - 3 new ontologies with this draft.
21:26:45 <phila> ... The expectation is that W3C will upload them into the right namespace, when the doc is published/
21:27:18 <phila> phila: You're asking for 3 namespaces
21:27:26 <phila> kerry_: There's SOSA, which is new in this doc
21:27:34 <ahaller2> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/ssn_separated/ssn.owl
21:27:34 <ahaller2> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl
21:27:34 <ahaller2> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/ssn_separated/ssn_equivalences.owl
21:27:36 <ahaller2> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/ssn_separated/dul-alignment.owl
21:27:38 <phila> ... There's the old SSN alignment that is new in this release
21:27:51 <phila> ... added to this, I'm not sure that this is the right URI
21:27:53 <ahaller2> these are the ontology files that are used in the document
21:28:31 <SimonCox> Do we actually need namespaces for alignments? Are any new resources named??
21:28:42 <kerry_> q+
21:29:18 <phila> phila: Would rather not over-use /ns space
21:29:28 <phila> ... Can we use dated space
21:29:47 <ahaller2> +1 for a dated space for the alignments or use /ssn/ssn-bc
21:29:49 <phila> kerry_: These are meant to be normative
21:30:02 <phila> phila: Don't care. Are they intended to be used for 30+ years?
21:30:11 <phila> kerry_: How about /ns/ssn/foo?
21:30:13 <phila> phila: Better
21:30:27 <phila> ahaller2: So it would be /ns/ssn/bc/
21:30:32 <laurent_oz> maybe ssn-ssnx?
21:30:37 <phila> kerry_: Notes that /ssn/dul is there already
21:30:46 <laurent_oz> sssn being the xg X for XG
21:30:54 <SimonCox> is it a namespace or is it a graph name?
21:31:12 <laurent_oz> and also potentially, we will have to change the namespace for the old ssn to ssnx
21:31:12 <phila> ack si
21:31:13 <ahaller2> q?
21:31:26 <phila> SimonCox: On this issue..
21:31:46 <phila> ... regarding these namespaces - are any new resources defined, or is it a bunch of equivalent, sub classes etc?
21:32:04 <phila> ... Because if it is just those, it's not so much a namespace as much as anamed graph.
21:32:17 <laurent_oz> q+
21:32:23 <phila> ahaller2: We just want to give the graph a name that is differnet from SSN. I don't think any new terms are declared
21:32:26 <phila> q+
21:32:45 <phila> ahaller2: It's just to avoid people loading this into a triple store and gettung them confused
21:32:55 <phila> SimonCox: Hearing that, does that affect W3C's view?
21:33:15 <phila> SimonCox: It sounds to be as if it shoujdl have ssn at the beginning
21:33:26 <ahaller2> s/shoujdl/should
21:33:54 <ahaller2> s/gettung/getting
21:34:05 <phila> phila: How about /2017/01/ssn-alignment?
21:34:13 <ahaller2> s/differnet/different
21:34:35 <kerry_> q+
21:34:48 <laurent_oz> Tried to load all these ontologies into Protege yesterday: need a owl:Ontology with a rdf:about finishing with a different name (also we should start to revert to a dated URI for the old SSN).
21:34:48 <ahaller2> q?
21:34:52 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:34:55 <SimonCox> q+
21:35:24 <phila> phila: I won't object/stand in the way, but it feels to me as if you're looking at a transitional thing, then I prefer dated space
21:35:26 <phila> q-
21:35:45 <phila> kerry_: The doc itself will need to be changed to adapt to that.
21:35:56 <phila> ... I also liked Lauren't alternative name for the doc
21:36:07 <phila> ... Changing from bc to...
21:36:41 <phila> ahaller2: So we have 2 proposals for ...
21:36:47 <ahaller2> q?
21:36:57 <ahaller2> ack laurent_oz
21:36:57 <phila> ... for the alignment with the old namespace, we use the dated space
21:37:10 <phila> laurent_oz: In Protege, the conflict is between the old and new SSN
21:37:37 <phila> In Protege, you see the last make after the last slash
21:37:41 <phila> SimonCox: That's a tool problem
21:37:49 <kerry_> q+
21:37:52 <phila> laurent_oz: Yes, but we know about it so perhaps we can avoid it.
21:38:21 <phila> kerry_: It's painful, but I don't think there's a better option.
21:38:35 <phila> ... Neither imports the other. You put yourself in that position if you want to.
21:38:45 <phila> q?
21:38:48 <phila> ack s
21:38:49 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:39:10 <phila> SimonCox: You may have notriced that I've been working on an alignment with SOSA and O&M
21:39:13 <kerry_> q+ on the previous topic to conside the name laurent proposed for ssn-bc
21:39:22 <ahaller2> s/notriced/noticed
21:39:24 <phila> ... I hadn't gone as far as imagining the w3 URI to be used for that
21:39:41 <ahaller2> q?
21:39:56 <kerry_> q+ to remind on changes section
21:40:02 <phila> SimonCox: The lists and lists of alignment axioms - will we see those in the end or will we be referring out to an RDF alignment graph?
21:40:03 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:40:03 <Zakim> kerry_, you wanted to comment on the previous topic to conside the name laurent proposed for ssn-bc and to remind on changes section
21:40:26 <phila> kerry_: We discussed that last week. There were suggestions made - not able to do it before now.
21:40:31 <phila> ... I'll certainly havea another go.
21:40:45 <phila> SimonCox: So should I do something similar for O&M alignment in a future release?
21:40:57 <phila> ahaller2: I think kerry_ you were adressing he formatting preoblem?
21:41:00 <phila> kerry_: No...
21:41:18 <phila> ahaller2: Do we want the alignment in the file as they appear now?
21:41:19 <laurent_oz> q+
21:41:23 <phila> SimonCox: It's just an alignment of all the axioms?
21:41:37 <phila> q+
21:41:47 <phila> ahaller2: We need a formal semantics section
21:41:57 <ahaller2> ack laurent_oz
21:41:57 <laurent_oz> And a figure!
21:42:04 <phila> SimonCox: I remember some discussion about the formal semantics
21:42:16 <phila> laurent_oz: That's what we'll need to discuss.
21:42:43 <phila> action: laurent to prepare a graphical representation of the alignment
21:42:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-246 - Prepare a graphical representation of the alignment [on Laurent Lefort - due 2016-12-27].
21:42:56 <phila> SimonCox: That shoud be a plural?
21:43:00 <phila> laurent_oz: Yes.
21:43:22 <phila> ahaller2: So we have a proposal to change the alignment namespace URI to a dated space
21:44:19 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: Dated URI for the SSN-SSSNX alignment and change name to SSN-SSSNX
21:44:25 <laurent_oz> 2 s
21:44:31 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: Dated URI for the SSN-SSSNX alignment and change name to SSN-SSNX
21:44:39 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: Dated URI for the SSN-SSNX alignment and change name to SSN-SSNX
21:44:45 <kerry_> +1
21:44:49 <ahaller2> +1
21:44:54 <laurent_oz> +1
21:44:54 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
21:45:09 <phila> kerry_: Noting that that requires changes in the doc before publication
21:45:22 <phila> ahaller2: You can only do that after DanhLePhuoc has swapped SOSA and SSN sections
21:45:23 <phila> q-
21:45:28 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: I'm doing it now
21:45:37 <phila> ... So give it a few hours
21:45:44 <phila> ahaller2: I'll look at it right after the meeting
21:45:46 <SimonCox> ANd don't forget https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Mapping_Table !
21:45:57 <phila> RESOLUTION: Dated URI for the SSN-SSNX alignment and change name to SSN-SSNX
21:46:02 <ahaller2> The namespace for SSN terms is http://www.w3.org/ns/ssn/
21:46:02 <ahaller2> The suggested prefix for the SSN namespace is ssn
21:46:02 <ahaller2> The SSN ontology itself is available here.
21:46:22 <phila> ahaller2: We need something similar at the beginning of the SOAS section. Simon mentioned it a while back.
21:46:26 <laurent_oz> q+
21:46:30 <phila> ... I propose making that cnage in the doc
21:46:32 <phila> ack l
21:46:32 <ahaller2> ack laurent_oz
21:46:59 <phila> laurent_oz: In terms of reaching to the user, showing them these namespaces. It makes sense to have the O&M alignment prominent
21:47:06 <phila> q+
21:47:40 <phila> ahaller2: So the alignment with O&M should be more prominent than with SOSA
21:47:44 <phila> laurent_oz: (off mike)
21:48:04 <phila> ahaller2: Can that be in the next version, not this version
21:48:12 <ahaller2> ack phila
21:48:50 <kerry_> q+
21:49:12 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:49:13 <laurent_oz> Phil asks if everything can go in a single namespace.
21:49:26 <phila> s/namespace/graph name/
21:49:41 <SimonCox> PROPOSED: Insert a NS block at top of SOSA section
21:49:44 <phila> [No, we need separate graph names]
21:49:59 <SimonCox> +1
21:50:00 <kerry_> +1
21:50:01 <phila> ahaller2: Do we all agree?
21:50:04 <ahaller2> +1
21:50:11 <laurent_oz> +1
21:50:14 <roba> +1
21:50:24 <phila> RESOLUTION: Insert a NS block at top of SOSA section
21:50:27 <ahaller2> q?
21:50:35 <kerry_> q+ changes
21:50:41 <kerry_> q+
21:50:44 <phila> ahaller2: That change to be made after the SOSA and SSN section order swap
21:50:49 <ahaller2> ack changes
21:50:53 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:51:02 <phila> kerry_: The changes section...
21:51:18 <phila> kerry_: It's good enough but it's not that good. Can it be improved?
21:51:26 <phila> q+
21:51:37 <kerry_> q+
21:52:03 <phila> ahaller2: From what we proposed omn Monday evening, I think we've only made editorial changes. Are there other changes that need to be highlighted. There were som esignificant changes
21:52:20 <phila> ... There are 2 new chapters which ren't mentioned. The vertical integration isn't in the change log
21:52:35 <ahaller2> s/ren't/aren't
21:52:43 <phila> SimonCox: Adding sections is more than just editorial, I agree
21:52:58 <phila> ahaller2: Are you volunteering to made those additions, Kerry?
21:53:18 <phila> ahaller2: Talks about changes before and after the freeze
21:53:42 <phila> ack me
21:54:11 <laurent_oz> Phil The change log have to reflect between the published versions
21:54:12 <kerry_> q+
21:54:37 <laurent_oz> s/between the published versions/the changes between the published versions/
21:54:44 <ahaller2> ack kerry_
21:54:51 <phila> phila: Points out that change log needs to reflect changes between previous and this published version.
21:55:07 <phila> kerry_: I did it for the changes I was aware of, which I'm not sure is all of them.
21:55:20 <phila> SimonCox: I'll review that if you have a go Armin.
21:55:30 <phila> ... But I don't feel able to make actual changes
21:55:42 <phila> ahaller2: If you have a couple of spare minutes in the morning
21:55:58 <phila> SimonCox: I'll do it right after the end of this call, but after the current PRs have been accepted.
21:56:13 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: Adding changes to change history in document in section B
21:56:18 <ahaller2> +1
21:56:36 <SimonCox> +1 - I will work on it this afternoon
21:56:40 <kerry_> +1
21:56:42 <laurent_oz> +1 - Simon can you cc me with your original list of changes (to help me to catch up)?
21:56:45 <phila> +1
21:56:45 <ahaller2> q?
21:56:55 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:56:55 <phila> phila: (it's essential)
21:56:57 <phila> RESOLUTION: Adding changes to change history in document in section B
21:57:07 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
21:57:16 <phila> ahaller2: So can we freeze the doc after these changes, no more after that
21:57:25 <kerry_> +1 subject to  consistency /typo check
21:57:34 <SimonCox> +1
21:57:35 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:57:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:57:35 <ahaller2> PROPOSED: Freeze document after approved proposed changes from this meeting are made
21:57:40 <roba> +0
21:57:42 <SimonCox> +1
21:57:43 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:57:44 <RaulGarciaCastro> +1
21:57:46 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:57:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:57:48 <ahaller2> +1
21:57:59 <kerry_> +1 subject to consiusteny/typo check
21:58:03 <phila> RESOLUTION: Freeze document after approved proposed changes from this meeting are made
21:58:11 <laurent_oz> +1
21:58:27 <phila> Topic: Going forward
21:58:37 <phila> ahaller2: We'll have to take this topic on the mailing list as we're out of time
21:58:42 <ahaller2> q?
21:58:46 <phila> ... We may want to open a new doc or a new branch
21:58:56 <laurent_oz> * Simon, I'll need the O&M ontology you want to align with (if not available)
21:58:59 <phila> ahaller2: AOB? If not, we have a frozen doc before Christmas
21:59:03 <SimonCox> Thanks for very productive meeting all.
21:59:07 <SimonCox> Happy Holidays
21:59:28 <kerry_> q+
21:59:50 <phila> ack si
21:59:53 <phila> ack k
22:00:08 <phila> SimonCox: I was just reminding people that the diagram existed which  might be helpful
22:00:28 <RaulGarciaCastro> Bye! Enjoy these days!
22:00:39 <ClausStadler1> ClausStadler1 has left #sdwssn
22:00:41 <phila> [Adjourned]
22:01:53 <phila> phila: Use http://www.w3.org/2017/01/ssn-ssnx
22:02:41 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:02:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/20-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
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