17:54:00 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:54:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/15-aria-irc 17:54:02 RRSAgent, make logs world 17:54:02 Zakim has joined #aria 17:54:04 Zakim, this will be 17:54:04 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 17:54:05 Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference 17:54:05 Date: 15 December 2016 17:54:29 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Dec/0022.html 17:54:35 RRSAgent, make log public 17:54:39 chair: Rich 17:59:22 I will be on the call shortly. 18:02:39 jongund has joined #aria 18:03:08 present+ Janina 18:03:46 Stefan has joined #aria 18:04:37 present+ ShaneM 18:05:04 present+ Stefan 18:05:12 present+ jongund 18:05:19 clown has joined #aria 18:05:52 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger 18:05:54 scribe: janina 18:05:57 Yay janina! 18:06:10 topic: Updates 18:06:21 Topic: Updates 18:06:48 rs: We have Microsoft mappings fo dpub aam core aam 18:07:02 rs: All mappings for dpub are in 18:07:11 rs: Some Apple still missing for core 18:07:52 rs: Grphics module roles are in the validator now 18:08:15 present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer 18:08:24 stefan: Steve Faulkner says ARIA now also in validator 18:08:59 rs: So, pieces are coming together 18:09:13 rs: Major next step is testing 18:09:26 jamesn has joined #aria 18:09:54 rs: Chrome is making good progress in ARIA support 18:10:23 rs: Roadblock is getting remaining platforms on the test harness 18:10:30 Topic: Testing 18:10:44 jg: Last scheduled meeting, I was the only one present 18:10:54 jg: Shane and Joanie are doing most of the work 18:11:10 jg: Got regrets from Ms; Joanie was on vacation 18:11:15 jg: Happy to reschedule 18:11:29 rs: Should we use this call? 18:11:36 jg: We need the at test adaptors 18:12:29 jg: I'll mail Joanie and ask about working on Mac test adaptor with Craig 18:12:44 sm: I know it's not started, we're talking Monday on what next steps are 18:13:12 rs: Suggest we do coord during this call 18:13:50 jg: Hoping to get student helpers next semester 18:13:55 q? 18:14:03 jg: I have time, meanwhile, to get things going 18:14:39 jg: Shane, I'd like to sit in in the call with Joanie 18:14:47 sm: OK, nothing scheduled yet, will followup 18:15:08 sm: I've been asked to wait on ATA changes because of some W3C backend changes 18:15:08 mck has joined #aria 18:15:12 s/ATA/ATTA/ 18:15:28 sm: ATTA driver is complete and works well 18:15:47 present+ matt_king 18:15:49 sm: Some things like focus change we can't do--so we'll find another way 18:16:05 sm: Perhaps via web driver--we'll see 18:16:16 sm: ATK support is complete--almost 18:16:44 sm: We haven't heard from Ms on UIA yet 18:16:54 sm: We have good contact in Mozilla and Google 18:18:20 rs: I'm working to get Freedom Scientific and NVDA involved with us 18:18:42 rs: Google is aggressively implementing in Canary 18:18:56 Topic: ARIA in HTML 18:19:19 rs: Seems we haven't fully addressed the address element--seems like contentinfo 18:19:38 jg: Default mapping is contentinfo, probably none 18:19:47 q+ to say that there is a new meaning for

18:19:48 jg: Perhaps region? 18:19:50 mk: NO! 18:19:54 rs: No 18:20:07 mk: Prefer implied role being none 18:20:22 mk: If we had a

role, we could put some things there 18:20:40 mk: We need two kinds of elements/roles with these generics 18:20:43 https://w3c.github.io/html/grouping-content.html#the-address-element 18:20:44 mk: accessible block 18:20:48 https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_in_HTML_Comments 18:20:50 mk :accessible inline thingie 18:21:16 mk: block, perhaps "chunck" some word like that 18:21:29 mk: spans don't cause multiple nodes, so can be strung together 18:21:35 mk: But not divs 18:21:44 mk: ditto paras 18:21:49 What if the spans had explicit roles? would there be different chunks? 18:22:19 rs: Probably will with 1.2, so could do something like this 18:22:41 rs: We could say: "No AIA mapping" 18:22:46 jg: We do that in other cases 18:23:26 rs: Let's say no mapping, add note that we'll create in 1.2 18:24:02 rs: Michael, can we have a generic block issue? Refer to HTML Address 18:24:25 ack me 18:24:25 clown, you wanted to say that there is a new meaning for

18:24:48 mk: So question is there a difference between block and paragraph 18:24:51 mk: Right now, no 18:25:03 mk: Often divs are used where it should really be

18:25:18 mk: And next para key doesn't work, but in some AT it does 18:25:39 mk: I don't see a semantic difference between div and p 18:25:51 It would be interesting to hear what DPub has to say about this 18:26:20 mc: Issue-474 ... 18:26:34 mc: Consider whether this needs to be generic block role 18:26:49 rrsagent, make minutes 18:26:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/15-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 18:27:19 jg: What about dt? Currently list item 18:27:23 rs: Think term 18:27:52 mk: Term can be used outside of list, yes? 18:28:32 q+ to ask why the position matters? 18:28:42 q? 18:28:43 JG: Do TERM and DEFINITION need to support posinset and setsixe? 18:29:07 JG: Since they can be part of a definition list (DL) 18:29:10 sm: dl is ordered list notionally, but does order matter? can have multiple dt 18:29:21 sm: So how does position matter? 18:29:51 mk: I guess I'm conventional, dt dd dt dd etc 18:30:01 mk: but dt with multiple dd? 18:30:05 sm: Yes 18:30:08 mk: Interesting 18:30:19 rs: so no set pos 18:30:37 mk: But no role for dl .. Is it really list? 18:30:57 sm: Correct no explicit role, and believe there should be 18:31:03 sm: I tag as glossary 18:31:58 rs: Should have note about multiple definitions for single term --- 18:32:04 jg: It was just my question 18:32:24 jg: We don't have a way to indicate which one you're on 18:32:46 mk: No screen readers that distinguish between def and term 18:32:56 mk: Maybe they will now that we distinguish 18:33:20 mk: Maybe term and definition are correct, even without pos and set 18:33:36 mk: We use same role for ol and ul 18:34:06 rs: Isn't css styling used to convert name computation? 18:34:12 mk: yes for numbered lists 18:34:42 mk: Sometimes you can tell where the next one begins, sometimes not. Not sure why 18:35:15 mk: Think John's proposal is correct 18:35:24 rs: But, the container, is it list? 18:35:26 mk: yes 18:35:36 rs: Contains a child? 18:36:12 mk: Doesn't say allowed, just has it has these things 18:36:19 mk: says "list item or group 18:36:30 mk: So we want to change list 18:36:35 rs: Another issue? 18:36:50 mc: List should also be able to take term definition 18:38:02 mk: In list role for required owned elements, we want to add term and definition 18:38:26 rrsagent, make minutes 18:38:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/15-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 18:38:44 sm: There's no way to link terms and definitions together semantically, and there should be. How do we do that? 18:38:53 mk: Just by their order? 18:39:24 mk: Points to usage 18:39:33 sm: But not required and we don't require anything 18:39:50 mk: Can't tell the difference yet with an sr 18:40:29 mk: Don't see this as an important issue 18:40:56 rs: So, think for dl -- add a note that we'll add dt and dd to lists 18:41:09 my phone cut out for some reason 18:41:44 q? 18:41:49 ack ShaneM 18:41:49 ShaneM, you wanted to ask why the position matters? 18:41:58 mk: Aha, JFW does acknowledge them 18:42:46 rs: So, no pos and set, but going to add term and definition as descendants of list in ARIA 1.2 18:43:02 rs: Also support multiple definitions per term 18:43:24 sm: I tried to use describedby to link terms to definitions in respec 18:43:38 sm: It's a way to link semantically without a role 18:44:24 rs: Multiple describedby ids would be concatinated, so not a good idea 18:44:45 mk: Shane, are you putting it on term? 18:45:06 mk: Not sure we want that relationship. Too much verbosity 18:45:35 mk: JFW is distinguishing dl from other lists, so we should investigate further 18:46:11 rs: Either way? Is there consensus for a separate role? 18:46:18 [crickets] 18:46:31 mc: I would tend to lean towards yes 18:46:41 sm: Didn't we add glossary role in dpub? 18:46:53 sm: Couldn't one put that on a dl? If they wanted it to be glossary? 18:47:22 mk: Perhaps like at beginning of Sec 5.4 in the ARIA spec--a list with all roles 18:47:26 present+ MichielBijl 18:47:32 mk: Could be strange as a glossary 18:47:43 sm: I don't mean implicit role 18:47:47 mk: Aha! 18:48:14 https://w3c.github.io/aria/dpub-aam/dpub-aam.html#role-map-glossary 18:48:22 rs: This could be interesting, because refers to another module 18:48:41 mc: Perhaps a path for moving dpub roles into main ARIA 18:48:48 rs: If we really want 18:49:10 rs: OK, let's say we'll create a glossary role ... 18:49:14 mk: No, not instead of a dl 18:49:26 mk: In addition to, yes, but not instead of 18:49:33 sm: Agree 18:50:48 rs: So we'll create a definition list role -- 18:50:59 role="definitions" 18:51:00 rs: Is that it? 18:51:03 jg: Yes! 18:51:14 jg: We covered other items last week 18:51:24 rrsagent, make minutes 18:51:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/15-aria-minutes.html janina 18:51:40 jn: Thought I had an action to look at all these 18:51:45 mk: Yes, for 1.2 18:51:54 BTW there is a role of definition that is already part of our namespace 18:51:56 rs: So, we're set! 18:52:14 From the XHTML role module in w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab 18:52:41 https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/57 18:52:52 https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/58 18:53:15 mb: Will have my review complete by first week January 18:53:23 rs: So we should wait for any additional comments to make 18:53:41 1+ 18:53:44 +1 18:53:52 +1 18:53:53 I am sitting in a bar right now 18:54:16 cheers 18:54:37 rs: Thaking everyone for an awesome job this year, and best TPAC ever 18:54:56 rs: Looks like Amelia can Chair for SVG TF 18:55:15 rs: Happy Hollidays, All! 18:55:19 zakim, bye 18:55:19 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Janina, ShaneM, Stefan, jongund, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, matt_king, MichielBijl 18:55:19 Zakim has left #aria 18:55:29 rrsagent, make minutes 18:55:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/15-aria-minutes.html janina 19:58:20 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 19:58:26 jongund has joined #aria 19:58:42 jongund has joined #aria 20:06:32 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 20:15:41 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria 21:05:07 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria