14:29:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:29:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc
14:29:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:29:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:29:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:29:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Silver Task Force Teleconference
14:29:44 <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2016
14:29:45 <MichaelC> meeting: Silver FtF Day 1
14:29:53 <MichaelC> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Meetings/FtF_Dec_2016
14:30:15 <MichaelC> present: Shawn_Lauriat, Sarah_Horton, Jeanne_Spellman, Michael_Cooper
14:30:23 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
14:30:29 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
14:30:35 <MichaelC> chair: Jeanne, Shawn
14:35:42 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: Silver FtF https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m88dbfe2a65ff0a578bf3897661423543
14:45:07 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
14:46:32 <jeanne> Trackbot, start meeting
14:46:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:46:38 <trackbot> Meeting: Silver Task Force Teleconference
14:46:38 <trackbot> Date: 12 December 2016
14:46:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:46:54 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:03 <MichaelC> meeting: Silver FtF Day 1
14:47:16 <jeanne> topic: agenda discussion
14:47:36 <jeanne> Edits to the agenda are on the wiki <- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Meetings/FtF_Dec_2016#Agenda
14:48:50 <jeanne> Sarah: I would like to have 2 hours to do a RACI diagram: What Roles, Who is Accountable, Who do we need to Consult, who do we need to keep Informed.
14:51:22 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
14:51:38 <jeanne> agenda+ Stakeholder Map
14:52:01 <jeanne> Sarah:  Overview, identify roles, then map people to roles.
14:52:09 <jeanne> ... start with an Activity
14:52:41 <jeanne> ... make provisional personas for that role.  Who the person is, why they need accessibility guidelines
14:52:56 <jeanne> ... later on we will prioritize and group them
14:53:30 <jeanne> ... created a stakeholder results form, with separate columns for the roles.
14:57:35 <jeanne> SL: [reads list of stakeholders from the Design document. ]
14:57:39 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Design_Plan_for_Silver#Stakeholder_Map
14:58:28 <jeanne> Michael: One of the things that the WCAG WG brings is the institutional memory.  We need to be aware of the compromises made in the past.
14:59:47 <jeanne> Jeanne: [reads the list of roles from the submission form]
15:02:23 <jeanne> Topic: Roles of stakeholders
15:02:34 <jeanne> Person with Disability
15:06:12 <jeanne> ... Sites are accessible
15:06:26 <jeanne> ... find sites that are accessibile
15:06:31 <jeanne> ... the standard exist
15:06:44 <jeanne> DIsability organization
15:06:53 <jeanne> ... inform the standards
15:07:08 <jeanne> ... provides structure
15:07:25 <jeanne> ... institutionailzed advocacy
15:07:37 <jeanne> Thought leader in accessibility
15:08:37 <jeanne> ... Where is the industry going?
15:08:50 <jeanne> ... overlap with disability organization
15:09:09 <jeanne> ... having the standard allows thought leader to build on the world
15:09:28 <jeanne> s/build on the world/build on the standard
15:11:32 <jeanne> Influencer in disability
15:12:18 <jeanne> ... floor for disabilities to build
15:12:41 <jeanne> ... identify new technology with new disability needs
15:13:02 <jeanne> ... identify new disabilities not covered by standards
15:13:38 <jeanne> Accessibility Professional
15:14:11 <jeanne> ... the standard by which you know you are doing what is needed
15:14:34 <jeanne> ... may also be someone who works with people with disabilities
15:15:42 <jeanne> Accessibility Developer/Designer
15:15:55 <jeanne> ... point of reference for building software
15:16:03 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html jeanne
15:16:34 <jeanne> Accessibility specialist
15:16:58 <jeanne> ... someone who works with people with disabilitities - day to day helpers or training helpers
15:17:12 <jeanne> ... point of reference for how things should work
15:17:29 <jeanne> ... report problems to vendors of software and assistive technology
15:17:50 <jeanne> ... guidelines and sjupporting materials help them identify how to help their clients
15:17:55 <jeanne> ... learning materials
15:18:39 <jeanne> Academic Researcher
15:19:35 <jeanne> ... guidelines can be a topic of study
15:19:44 <jeanne> ... use it as a measure in their research
15:20:00 <jeanne> ... gap analysis of the guidelines as a topic of research
15:20:11 <jeanne> ... could help prioritize research
15:21:50 <jeanne> s/Academic Researcher/Researchers
15:22:13 <jeanne> Instructors/Professors
15:22:42 <jeanne> ... teaching coding - same as accessibility professionals
15:22:59 <jeanne> ... working with people with disabilities, working from the other side
15:23:10 <jeanne> ... point of reference
15:23:48 <jeanne> ... curriculum basis
15:26:19 <jeanne> Accessibility Advisor
15:27:20 <jeanne> ... accessibility audit, gaps in process and development, knows accessibility needs and solutions.
15:27:59 <jeanne> ... knows the guidelines, communicating about how the guideline applies to a specific situations
15:28:19 <jeanne> ... gives perceived legitimacy and a framework for the communication
15:29:01 <jeanne> s/Accessibility Advisor/ Accessibility advisor or consultant-type role
15:29:19 <jeanne> QA Professional
15:29:37 <jeanne> ... manual testing, writing test plans
15:29:46 <AWK> AWK has joined #silver
15:29:56 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
15:29:56 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:29:57 <jeanne> ... automation side writes the tooling and validate the tooling
15:29:58 <Zakim> 1. Finalize items for F2F [from SarahHorton]
15:29:58 <Zakim> 2. CSUN advance preparations - descriptions, ideas for outreach for town hall meeting [from SarahHorton]
15:29:58 <Zakim> 3. research projects and faculty outreach [from SarahHorton]
15:29:58 <Zakim> 4. Timeline and resources needed for Q1 2017 and longer term [from SarahHorton]
15:29:59 <Zakim> 5. holiday schedule [from SarahHorton]
15:29:59 <Zakim> 6. review stakeholder submissions [from jeanne]
15:29:59 <Zakim> 7. Stakeholder Map [from jeanne]
15:31:04 <jeanne> ... goal is that the product conforms to the guidelines and validating the product conforms
15:31:14 <jeanne> rrsagent, makes minutes
15:31:14 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes minutes', jeanne.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:31:26 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html jeanne
15:32:18 <jeanne> Designers
15:32:30 <jeanne> ... to design products that conform to guidelines
15:32:45 <jeanne> ... understand constraints of guidelines
15:32:59 <jeanne> ... must have creativity within the constraints of the guidelines
15:33:26 <jeanne> ... guidelines provide a boundary
15:33:54 <jeanne> ... the boundary cannot be a so small that it becomes a constraints.
15:34:14 <jeanne> ... must have language in the guidelines that they can understand
15:35:00 <jeanne> Developers
15:35:18 <jeanne> ... using the guidelines to know how to write the software
15:35:38 <jeanne> ... a specification book (for Designers, more than developers)
15:36:11 <jeanne> ... must solve the problems even the designers overlooked.
15:36:20 <jeanne> ... developer executes the design
15:36:40 <jeanne> ... validating designs they get
15:36:49 <jeanne> ... validating that what they have made is correct
15:39:12 <jeanne> ... source of solutions of problems -- what is an accessible data picker?
15:39:34 <AWK> q+
15:40:12 <MichaelC> ack a
15:43:47 <jeanne> AWK:  I'm worried about haviing so many different stakeholer groups.  I think that we are making it less defined.  I worry that we will not be able to map person-to-role mapping.  I see 3 different levels: person with disability, content developers, intermediaries
15:44:25 <jeanne> Product Manager - the person who owns the product and has to make it successful
15:44:52 <jeanne> ... more indirect: prioritization of whatever has to be done in their product
15:45:13 <jeanne> ... use the guidelines to understand the issues that their product has to meet
15:45:37 <jeanne> ... and understand the impact of their product lacks
15:46:07 <jeanne> ... helps set and communicate expectations
15:46:15 <jeanne> Product Manager
15:46:30 <jeanne> Project Manager
15:46:43 <jeanne> ... help designers understand scope
15:46:52 <jeanne> ... help developers prioritize
15:47:07 <jeanne> ... scoping, timeframes of what peeople want to do.
15:48:22 <jeanne> Content providers, producers and editors
15:48:27 <jeanne> ... similar to designers
15:48:43 <jeanne> ... need to know boundaries within they can work
15:48:59 <jeanne> ... depends on the type of content creators
15:49:42 <jeanne> ... informs a style guide
15:50:19 <jeanne> ... creative solutions to accessibility needs
15:50:28 <jeanne> ... awareness
15:51:45 <jeanne> Topic:  I need guidelines for...
15:52:05 <jeanne> Researcher:  For a thesis statement
15:52:28 <jeanne> Influencer: to be creditble
15:52:51 <jeanne> QA:  Know what bugs to write
15:52:57 <jeanne> Developer: Avoid creating bugs
15:53:16 <jeanne> Instructor: have topics for my class
15:53:42 <jeanne> Disability organization:  sue
15:53:54 <jeanne> Person with a disability: Use technology
15:54:09 <jeanne> Accessibility helper: understand how to do my job
15:54:29 <jeanne> Accessibility/designer developer: tell people what to do
15:55:06 <jeanne> Accessibility advisor consultant: tell people what to do.
15:55:47 <jeanne> Designer: know what to do
15:56:08 <AWK> s/Disability organization:  sue/Disability organization:  Advocate toward a stable standard reference
15:56:26 <jeanne> Product manager:  Priorize adding new features
15:56:46 <jeanne> Content:  make accessible content
15:57:23 <jeanne> Accessibility Influencers: be credible
15:57:48 <jeanne> Disability Influencers: identify gaps
15:58:21 <jeanne> Project manager: allocate time /wrangling
15:59:04 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html jeanne
16:15:02 <jeanne> Topic: Roles for Stakeholder Map, Part 2
16:15:13 <jeanne> Policymaker
16:15:53 <jeanne> ... define the policies that others need to work against
16:16:18 <jeanne> s/Policymaker/Policymaker (govt)
16:16:48 <jeanne> ... they need guidelines to set policy
16:17:08 <jeanne> ... they need international guidelines for harmonization with other countries
16:17:34 <jeanne> Policymaker (organization and corporations)
16:18:09 <jeanne> ... internal policies match exteral (when applicable) or to meet customer needs and goals
16:18:21 <jeanne> ... sometimes to demonstrate compliance
16:19:01 <jeanne> ... risk limiting factor -- meeting the guidelines mitigate risk, even if all customer needs aren't met.
16:23:46 <jeanne> Web browser and platform developer (extensions, ECHO platform, hardware input output, native apps)
16:24:35 <jeanne> ... need standards to insure their platforms enable software to meet the standards
16:25:35 <jeanne> ... platform itself needs to meet guidelines
16:25:59 <jeanne> Assistive Technology developer
16:26:28 <jeanne> ... follow their side of the guidelines so the AT works with conforming platforms and software
16:27:00 <jeanne> ... capitalize on the guidelines -- build increased functionality that is based on the guidelines
16:27:35 <jeanne> ... meet the needs of the audience with the specific disability they are addressing
16:27:43 <jeanne> Authoring Tool Developers
16:28:12 <jeanne> ... software needs to meet the guidelines so people with disabilities can use it
16:29:09 <jeanne> ... create application, content and interactivity that is accessible
16:29:43 <jeanne> ... the border between content creation and programming is blurring.  It will be a challenge to Silver
16:30:18 <jeanne> ... help you author accessible content and reduce the way to make inaccessible content
16:32:14 <jeanne> Evaluation Tool Developers
16:32:32 <jeanne> ... something to evaluate, test cases
16:32:55 <jeanne> ... automatic and semi automatic tests, they need guidelines that are implementable to them.
16:33:44 <jeanne> Lawyers
16:34:03 <jeanne> ... communicate definitively
16:34:15 <jeanne> ... define the terms of case settlements
16:34:23 <jeanne> ... demonstrate non-compliance
16:34:55 <jeanne> Accessibility Advocates
16:35:19 <jeanne> ... educating people on need for accessibility
16:35:30 <jeanne> ... persuading and validating a position
16:37:05 <jeanne> Innovators (not necessarily accessibility related)
16:37:28 <jeanne> ... when innovations are deployed, the guidelines address the requirements of those technologies
16:38:07 <jeanne> Industry Association
16:38:42 <jeanne> ... and Professional Associations
16:38:54 <jeanne> ... cerrification for memebers -  training and testing
16:39:34 <jeanne> s/cerrification /certification
16:40:23 <jeanne> Creating Training Materials
16:41:08 <jeanne> ... topics and explanation of concepts
16:42:31 <jeanne> CTO - IT Managers
16:42:41 <jeanne> ... prioritization
16:42:55 <jeanne> ... compliance with standards
16:43:23 <jeanne> ... establish accountability for compliance
16:44:23 <jeanne> Call Center
16:45:09 <jeanne> ... indirect.  Need to know how it is implemented on the products they are responsible for.
16:45:30 <jeanne> ... similar to the accessibility specialist
16:45:43 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html jeanne
16:47:05 <jeanne> Standards Organizations
16:48:06 <jeanne> ... coordination with guidelines
16:48:11 <jeanne> WCAG WG
16:48:21 <jeanne> ... so the web will be more accessible
16:49:15 <jeanne> ... to address all the needs of everyone else.  The guidelines are the way the working uses to meet all those needs.
16:49:45 <jeanne> s/coordination with guidelines/coordination with their own standards
16:50:06 <jeanne> ... standards that are reasonable with their jurisdictions
16:50:18 <jeanne> ... harmonized with other juristictions
16:50:36 <jeanne> ... useful and up to date (despite unpredictable timelines)
16:50:45 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html jeanne
17:52:56 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #silver
17:53:41 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
17:54:36 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
17:59:28 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
18:00:05 <MichaelC> topic: Follow-up from morning exercise
18:00:16 <MichaelC> sh: let's make sense of the roles
18:00:48 <MichaelC> what do they need
18:00:53 <MichaelC> what are they looking for
18:00:56 <MichaelC> what do we want from them
18:01:02 <MichaelC> what are their commonalities
18:01:07 <MichaelC> we want to prioritize the
18:01:13 <MichaelC> s/the/them/
18:01:16 <MichaelC> sl: group
18:02:08 <MichaelC> sh: I did abstractions for us to work with
18:02:17 <MichaelC> sl: group first
18:02:26 <MichaelC> will help with the following conceptualization
18:02:37 <MichaelC> based on the needs for the staeholders
18:10:28 <MichaelC> sh: so we have all the buckets
18:11:08 <MichaelC> for group
18:11:17 <MichaelC> e.g. if we´re interested in design decision types
18:11:39 <MichaelC> we might look at AT devs, PMs, designers
18:13:03 <MichaelC> <discussion of ways to group>
18:13:33 <MichaelC> sl: some groups might be technical, others not
18:13:39 <MichaelC> allows us to tailor surveys
18:14:38 <MichaelC> sh: I use accessibility guidelines to make policy
18:14:49 <MichaelC> * gov
18:14:52 <MichaelC> * org policy
18:14:55 <MichaelC> * disability orgs
18:15:29 <MichaelC> sh: I use accessibility guidelines to use policy
18:16:03 <MichaelC> * lawyers
18:16:11 <MichaelC> * disability orgs
18:16:25 <MichaelC> * a11y consultant
18:16:39 <MichaelC> sh: is there difference between make and use policy?
18:16:47 <MichaelC> sl: yes, though interactions similar
18:16:59 <MichaelC> sh: make design decisions
18:17:25 <MichaelC> js: (for content)
18:17:31 <MichaelC> * eval tool
18:17:34 <MichaelC> * authoring tool
18:17:59 <MichaelC> js: make content
18:18:05 <MichaelC> * project manager
18:18:09 <MichaelC> * product manager
18:18:15 <MichaelC> * developers
18:18:18 <MichaelC> * designers
18:18:20 <MichaelC> * QA
18:18:26 <MichaelC> * content producers
18:18:33 <MichaelC> * accessibility development / design
18:18:36 <MichaelC> * IT managers
18:18:53 <MichaelC> js: Standards orgs
18:18:59 <MichaelC> * standards developers
18:19:02 <MichaelC> * WCAG WG
18:19:54 <MichaelC> <scribe decides the moving around of post-it notes has exceeded the potential of linear scribing>
18:21:25 <MichaelC> sl: policy sometimes grouped into sub-categories sometimes not
18:21:26 <MichaelC> sh: is grouping not helpful?
18:21:32 <MichaelC> sl: it is but not 1:1
18:21:59 <MichaelC> sh: does it help us?
18:22:10 <MichaelC> e.g., researchers might go in multiple buckets
18:22:32 <MichaelC> sl: goal to come up with stakeholder gap with gaps identified and plan to fill the gaps
18:23:31 <MichaelC> sh: @@
18:23:35 <MichaelC> sl: @@
18:23:54 <MichaelC> sh: this grouping helps understand the roles
18:24:17 <MichaelC> mc: grouping make fewer types of roles we need to treat separately
18:24:33 <MichaelC> sh: I want the provisional personas
18:24:56 <MichaelC> put attributes on the roles so we can see the overlaps better
18:25:16 <MichaelC> sl: what do we accomplish by grouping?
18:25:27 <MichaelC> surveys and stakeholder interviews we´ll handle later
18:28:02 <MichaelC> sh: what roles critical to meet the goal of supporting PWD?
18:28:15 <MichaelC> sl: depends on which specific exercise we´re doing
18:28:43 <MichaelC> right now priority to identify gaps
18:29:07 <MichaelC> js: let´s look at how many people we have in the categories
18:29:45 <MichaelC> sl: easier for the ones we had in the survey
18:29:53 <MichaelC> note accessibility professionals is a big bucket
18:31:16 <MichaelC> greater flexibility is a big priority
18:32:03 <MichaelC> let´s look at roles that seem sparsely populated
18:32:50 <MichaelC> WGAG WG participants, standards orgs
18:32:59 <MichaelC> though WG easier to reach out to
18:33:07 <MichaelC> we have lots of people from a11y orgs
18:33:18 <MichaelC> though there may gaps in types we´ll want to fill in
18:33:24 <MichaelC> 24 marked as policy makers
18:34:26 <MichaelC> sh: ask people to self-categorize?
18:34:39 <MichaelC> mc: we don´t want to make too much noise with these people
18:34:46 <MichaelC> sl: we probably need more in the lawyers category
18:34:57 <MichaelC> 12 web browser developer
18:36:07 <MichaelC> 73 web content developers
18:36:20 <MichaelC> 9 AT developers
18:36:34 <MichaelC> think we need emphasis on diversity within this category as well
18:37:04 <MichaelC> e.g., no screen reader developer
18:37:35 <MichaelC> mc: that´s been a difficult group for us to reach
18:37:56 <MichaelC> action: jeanne to cast about for screen reader developer names
18:37:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Cast about for screen reader developer names [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-12-19].
18:38:27 <MichaelC> sl: from some of the sparse categories, we could ask the people already in them for recommendations of others
18:38:37 <MichaelC> action: jeanne to ask Lainey for other lawyer names
18:38:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Ask lainey for other lawyer names [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-12-19].
18:39:07 <MichaelC> sl: many of these are ¨know accessbility¨ types
18:39:27 <MichaelC> need to also explicitly try to reach ¨don´t know accessibility¨ types
18:39:42 <MichaelC> js: AWK suggested alistapart outreach
18:40:13 <MichaelC> action: andrew to do outreach to alistapart for non-a11y people
18:40:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Do outreach to alistapart for non-a11y people [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2016-12-19].
18:42:33 <MichaelC> mc: let´s be very deliberate on that type of public outreach
18:42:58 <MichaelC> sl: content orgs, want to get lots of very different types of content
18:43:09 <MichaelC> js: @@
18:43:19 <MichaelC> sl: games, lots of authoring tool overlap
18:43:25 <MichaelC> google docs
18:43:34 <MichaelC> audio interfaces
18:43:48 <MichaelC> action: jeanne to contact ian hamilton for game developer frameworks
18:43:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Contact ian hamilton for game developer frameworks [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2016-12-19].
18:44:07 <MichaelC> sl: need to brainstorm a list of content types we want to capture
18:44:27 <MichaelC> likewise on platforms, want diverse set of platforms
18:44:45 <MichaelC> don´t think we have mobile, VR right now
18:45:20 <MichaelC> mc: want to get vehicles, web of things
18:45:53 <MichaelC> js: Mike Elledge for former, Dave Raggett for latter
18:46:10 <MichaelC> Alan Bird may have connections as well
18:46:36 <MichaelC> mc: +1 to broad brainstorm here
18:47:17 <MichaelC> sl: also diversity in general within the groups
18:47:24 <MichaelC> international, types of org, etc.
18:47:54 <MichaelC> sh: what is platform?
18:48:14 <MichaelC> better word
18:48:28 <MichaelC> js: hardware, os, extension
18:48:39 <MichaelC> sl: everything between content and person except AT
18:48:46 <MichaelC> js: and maybe even that
18:49:03 <MichaelC> sl: sometimes
18:50:12 <MichaelC> mc: is this a sufficient grouping axis?
18:50:16 <MichaelC> sl: good for now
18:50:26 <MichaelC> just want to make sure we haven´t missed a group
18:50:51 <MichaelC> e.g., content creators we didn´t reach out for
18:50:57 <MichaelC> js: at least outside a11y community
18:51:06 <MichaelC> sl: which filtered our resuts
18:52:16 <MichaelC> sh: <summarizes the groups>
18:52:27 <MichaelC> sl: we need to expand people with disabilities
18:53:19 <SarahHorton> SarahHorton has joined #silver
18:53:29 <SarahHorton> zakim, make minutes
18:53:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', SarahHorton
18:53:39 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html MichaelC
18:53:47 <SarahHorton> Thank you :)
18:55:23 <MichaelC> mc: for disability categorization
18:55:30 <SarahHorton> Here's a start on the roles and activites inventory: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XK_evYulIaLsYOlMjuDOC763xWL2TOM9SvPjRX_d9ag/edit?usp=sharing
18:55:35 <MichaelC> blind and visually impaired
18:55:41 <MichaelC> deaf and hearing impaired
18:55:47 <MichaelC> mobility impaired
18:56:07 <MichaelC> cognitive impaired
18:56:08 <MichaelC> learning disabilities
18:56:27 <MichaelC> and multiple disabilities which is often overlooked
18:56:31 <MichaelC> sl: deaf-blind
18:57:56 <jeanne> JS: disabled veterans organizations
18:58:43 <MichaelC> sh: let´s fill in roles and activities
19:00:02 <MichaelC> <fiddling on the columns in the spreadsheet>
19:00:21 <MichaelC> <and filling in the cells, not scribed>
19:31:25 <MichaelC> <unofficial break>
19:31:39 <MichaelC> sl: some roles we won´t need to go into as much depth as others
19:31:42 <MichaelC> sh: today
19:32:34 <MichaelC> sl: forseeable future
19:33:34 <MichaelC> sh: what will future look like if future succeeds?
19:33:44 <MichaelC> js: significant step towards unicorns and rainbows
19:34:03 <MichaelC> easier for people to get information on making their products and services accessible
19:34:47 <MichaelC> sl: everybody can do what they´re trying to do more easily
19:35:13 <MichaelC> mc: people can get the info they need sooner to address a11y
19:35:25 <MichaelC> js: broaden what standards apply to
19:36:38 <MichaelC> mc: we´d all love a11y to come automatically without thought
19:36:48 <MichaelC> but Silver won´t make that happen
19:37:26 <MichaelC> we hope it takes us a step closer
19:37:41 <MichaelC> but don´t bite off an over-large scope
19:38:03 <MichaelC> sl: we want to make it easier for people to adapt to technology change
19:38:05 <MichaelC> and keep a11y
19:38:47 <MichaelC> right now we´re being aspirational
19:38:52 <MichaelC> but later we will need to narrow things down
19:41:09 <MichaelC> mc: WCAG 2 tried to be be-all and end-all
19:41:14 <MichaelC> for stability of policy
19:41:29 <MichaelC> led to heistance to change, even create supplementary guidance
19:41:43 <MichaelC> for silver we want to be able to react to technology change more quickly
19:42:10 <MichaelC> while remaining viewed as a useful and solid base for policy harmonization
19:42:14 <MichaelC> sl: @@
19:42:39 <MichaelC> sl: think for stakeholder map we´ve gotten what we need out of today´s discussion
19:42:44 <MichaelC> have a starting point for goals, discussions
19:43:25 <MichaelC> for recruiting do we want to prioritize some of these roles for TF participation?
19:43:27 <MichaelC> mc: yes
19:43:41 <MichaelC> sh: how about that stack ranking thing?
19:44:26 <MichaelC> sl: not out of context of specific activities
19:44:39 <MichaelC> in specific tasks it will make sense to focus more on different groups
19:44:51 <MichaelC> we might do prioritization and group of surveys
19:45:42 <MichaelC> sh: are there roles that our work would fail if we don´t have people from that role?
19:46:08 <MichaelC> sl: some roles as needing to be involved in the full process rather than as needed?
19:46:10 <MichaelC> sh: yes
19:47:43 <MichaelC> mc: pwd critical
19:47:50 <MichaelC> policy people important for our history
19:47:56 <MichaelC> js: tool developers
19:50:26 <MichaelC> sl: can sort by responsibility, accountability, consult, inform
20:03:10 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #silver
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20:12:49 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
20:12:52 <Lauriat> Scribe: Lauriat
20:13:08 <Lauriat> Topic: Recruiting: how many people, what outreach
20:13:14 <SarahHorton> SarahHorton has joined #silver
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20:13:32 <Lauriat> Jeanne: Particularly looking at how many people, what specialties, that sort of thing.
20:13:44 <Lauriat> Michael: We should talk about the size of the TF.
20:14:28 <Lauriat> …a lot of people feel the time expectation is high, which it is, so I want to reconfirm with you the size of the TF and other ways people can participate.
20:15:04 <Lauriat> …How restrictive to want to be?
20:15:31 <Lauriat> …Then talk about how do we want to go about with active recruiting.
20:15:57 <Lauriat> Jeanne: We want a larger circle. Research partners, people who contribute heavily, but aren't necessarily part of the TF.
20:16:26 <Lauriat> Sarah: Does it make sense to talk about the structure of the activity? It seems a bit up in the air.
20:17:09 <Lauriat> Michael: Part of why I wanted to talk about that after tomorrow's WG Call, as the charter will influence things.
20:19:02 <Lauriat> Michael: Maybe talk about how the group would account for things if the decision goes in either direction?
20:20:30 <Lauriat> Jeanne: I prefer to stay with WCAG, but the advantage of the CG is other people (researchers, etc.) would have different rules around IP, but we could also have a TF and a CG for researchers.
20:21:13 <Lauriat> …We have a plan for how to move forward and get started, but the danger is CGs tend to have a high rate of failure without support TF have.
20:22:26 <Lauriat> Sarah: I don't really know a lot about the internal workings of the W3C. To pick up another point we had started before the break, I think we have some goals in the guidelines being more effective in producing accessible outcomes.
20:23:53 <Lauriat> …We do have goals that mean that we will do this effectively. It helps a lot to have an autonomous group that's working on the project, because you're less likely to get sidetracked or bogged down by legacy stuff, and can focus on the attributes of the project you need to.
20:24:46 <Lauriat> Michael: I agree with that, but I'll argue for having a degree of contact with the WG helps, with validity of the work itself.
20:26:33 <Lauriat> … A strong ongoing connection. We need a group that can move fast and do the work, but also have the WG bringing that memory and experience to inform the work.
20:27:33 <Lauriat> Sarah: Not advocating for one thing or another, since I don't know how these things work.
20:28:04 <Lauriat> Jeanne: For the next nine months, we won't have a lot of standards work going on, and we'll really need people who know research.
20:28:28 <Lauriat> … While we do the research, it'll attract more interest from people who know the standards work.
20:31:28 <Lauriat> Michael: To a certain extent, we can't control who joins the TF, but we can set expectations and manage things in a way that accounts for that. I want someone in the core group who can provide a bit of a slowdown in terms of perspective and catching things early so that we don't end up with something unusable for one case for whatever reason.
20:32:14 <Lauriat> Sarah: Someone has said he'd help with research, and managing it.
20:34:02 <Lauriat> Michael: We probably would want to work with the Research TF in order to form requests correctly to the outside world for research, and then they could do that on their own. They'd have their own timelines and quality requirements that may not match our own, though.
20:34:23 <Lauriat> … That can be coordinated by the Research TF or by the CG.
20:35:37 <Lauriat> Sarah: If someone volunteered to help us with the diary studies, the self-reporting projects. Helping design the studies and evaluate the findings from it. That might end up being a document articulating the things we need to know.
20:36:30 <Lauriat> Michael: W3C probably couldn't publish the document, for reasons of copyright, but they could publish it and then we could reference, but CG could publish it and then it'd have W3C copyright.
20:37:20 <Lauriat> Sarah: To review, we sent out a request for research partners.
20:38:01 <Lauriat> … People from that will expect a response from us after this week for how we can move forward with that.
20:38:54 <Lauriat> Michael: The group will need to publish the list of research requests, and the group will need to publish a timeline of these things.
20:39:17 <Lauriat> Jeanne: We've published the timeline, which does need refining.
20:40:32 <Lauriat> Michael: We have a core set of people, hopefully under W3C process. Talking about needing to interface with certain external groups, including managing the results and these interfaces.
20:41:25 <Lauriat> … When things happen outside of W3C process, we'll need to come up with ways to work with them that don't introduce complications, like IP-related publishing issues.
20:41:59 <Lauriat> Sarah: If this person joined the TF, we'd need to get Andrew and Josh invite this person to join the WG?
20:42:05 <Lauriat> Michael: Yes.
20:42:40 <Lauriat> Sarah: If I, as an outside person, want to contribute for two years but not join the WG, how would that work?
20:43:06 <Lauriat> Michael: They'd need to communicate things via the public open channels.
20:43:48 <Lauriat> Sarah: Back to the question of recruiting, we want to focus on people committed to the WG over time and not someone looking to sign up for this one project.
20:44:43 <Lauriat> … In the CG path, it's a more fluid engagement, and can come and go depending on the work at hand. Do we need to figure out recruiting for each scenario (TF vs. CG)?
20:44:56 <Lauriat> Michael: Yes.
20:45:30 <Lauriat> Jeanne: Once we product a requirements document, we need to figure out what to do with that. If in the WG, it wouldn't be a major battle to get the work chartered to move forward.
20:46:02 <Lauriat> … If a CG, we'll need to find a place to put the work. That may mean rechartering the WG, or creating a new one, which would creating conflicts.
20:46:13 <Lauriat> s/creating/create/
20:47:06 <Lauriat> Michael: A major risk: Silver is developed to be great by the people working on it, and the WG doesn't take it seriously.
20:47:17 <Lauriat> … it could work as a CG, but it's a risk.
20:47:55 <Lauriat> … A CG is technically independent. I would technically be prohibited from working with the CG.
20:48:13 <Lauriat> Jeanne: Web Platform has a CG, as one exception to that.
20:49:36 <Lauriat> Michael: Let's move forward with the assumption that the TF will happen. What do we want for that?
20:50:06 <Lauriat> … Issues with the 8-hour per week time commitment, other ways to direct people to other channels?
20:50:47 <Lauriat> Sarah: One way to look at this is to look at the work of the TF, talk about the roles needed on the TF to execute it.
20:51:08 <Lauriat> … It may be the case that people come and go from the TF, depending on the work.
20:51:40 <Lauriat> … Maybe someone just comes in for the duration of the activity and then backs up again once we move to another phase.
20:52:10 <Lauriat> Jeanne: I was looking at it from the point of what does it take to work with the W3C. A group less than six isn't really viable.
20:52:34 <Lauriat> … I think we should try for eight. Manageable, nimble, and small, but could have the flexibility of something small.
20:53:22 <Lauriat> … What kind of persona do we need for the group? We have too many people from TPG on the group, and that will cause problems. We have someone from another place reaching out to join, which is great.
20:54:02 <Lauriat> … We have some people (including some research-focused) interested, but very put off by the 8-hour requirement.
20:54:30 <Lauriat> Michael: Thinking in terms of diversity of the TF.
20:55:01 <Lauriat> … Including having at least two disability groups represented.
20:55:40 <Lauriat> … We may want to think in terms of concentric circles, where the core puts in 8 hours, and then the next circle out puts in a bit less.
20:56:09 <Lauriat> Sarah: In the past when you've had a successful project, can you describe the personas of the core people involved?
20:56:47 <Lauriat> Michael: I think we need people who are organized, keep up on action items, plot their work effort into the future, technically skilled, able to express their opinion and accept other people's opinions.
20:57:32 <Lauriat> Sarah: These are attributes of a person, which is good. Any other experience, role-based types, maybe people involved in policy for example?
20:58:08 <Lauriat> Michael: Well, people with disabilities are a must.
20:58:51 <Lauriat> Sarah: PhD?
20:59:01 <Lauriat> Jeanne: Certainly not on the TF.
20:59:47 <Lauriat> Sarah: Jeanne, you mentioned where people work. (Oh! International.) How important are you seeing that?
21:00:14 <Lauriat> Michael: A little more fluid. If half the TF comes from one company, that'll raise questions.
21:00:47 <Lauriat> Sarah: I like the idea of concentric circles, bringing certain people into the core for periods of time.
21:01:20 <Lauriat> … Should we reach out to specific individuals?
21:02:25 <Lauriat> Michael: Thinking of specifically two levels of collaboration, the core group and an outer group.
21:26:21 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
21:27:43 <Lauriat> Michael: We'll update the work statement to say that the core group will put in an expected 8 hours per week and then have other contributors, but we don't need to explicitly say that they aren't in a core circle.
21:28:14 <Lauriat> Sarah: We got a lot of people in the stakeholder responses who want to take part in Silver.
21:28:41 <Lauriat> Michael: Do we want to just set up a CG now in order to get more participation and interest?
21:29:39 <Lauriat> Sarah: I like that idea, because we really need to get people involved and bring them along. It allows us to do some of these activities that seem confining within the context of the WG (like the research) that we could do in the CG.
21:30:15 <Lauriat> … Having a group around that activity gives it a bit more formality and credibility.
21:30:32 <Lauriat> Michael: We can set up a mailing list, a wiki, things like that.
21:32:42 <Lauriat> Andrew: Thinking about the community group aspect, I feel like it's going to be hard to characterize our current state without people pointing out that that's what incubation is.
21:33:23 <Lauriat> … We know that there's tight connection that we'll need to have between Silver and the WG.
21:34:04 <Lauriat> Michael: Maybe plan A will be that we don't talk about the supplementary CG idea yet, and just go ahead with the proposal for the TF.
21:34:24 <Lauriat> Jeanne: We won't be successful unless we continue with the WG.
21:34:30 <Lauriat> Sarah: Yeah.
21:34:58 <Lauriat> Michael: We can be thinking it might happen, but don't have to propose it just yet.
21:35:43 <Lauriat> Action: Michael Update work statement to reflect updated work expectations.
21:35:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Update work statement to reflect updated work expectations. [on Michael Cooper - due 2016-12-19].
21:37:19 <Lauriat> Sarah: If you want names of people, let me know. Not-your-usual suspects kind of people.
21:37:35 <Lauriat> Michael: With this, knowledge of W3C is kind of important.
21:39:51 <Lauriat> Topic: Liaisons to other organizations
21:40:37 <Lauriat> Michael: I want to cover strategy for liaising with these organizations, and what organizations we want to liaise with.
21:41:24 <Lauriat> Michael: We want to avoid misunderstandings about expectations and such.
21:49:20 <Lauriat> Sarah: Liaising with other standards organizations to let them know about what we're doing?
21:49:27 <Lauriat> Michael: At least that.
21:50:49 <Lauriat> … We want to really not be prohibited from doing this work, but still remain sensitive to their needs.
21:51:36 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:51:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html MichaelC
21:51:40 <Lauriat> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:51:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html Lauriat
21:53:09 <Lauriat> trackbot, make meeting
21:53:09 <trackbot> Sorry, Lauriat, I don't understand 'trackbot, make meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
21:53:12 <Lauriat> trackbot, end meeting
21:53:12 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:53:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shawn_Lauriat, Sarah_Horton, Jeanne_Spellman, Michael_Cooper
21:53:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:53:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-minutes.html trackbot
21:53:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-actions.rdf :
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to cast about for screen reader developer names [1]
21:53:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc#T18-37-56
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to ask Lainey for other lawyer names [2]
21:53:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc#T18-38-37
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: andrew to do outreach to alistapart for non-a11y people [3]
21:53:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc#T18-40-13
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to contact ian hamilton for game developer frameworks [4]
21:53:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc#T18-43-48
21:53:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael Update work statement to reflect updated work expectations. [5]
21:53:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/12/12-silver-irc#T21-35-43