20:31:15 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:31:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/08-svg-irc 20:31:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:31:17 Zakim has joined #svg 20:31:19 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:31:19 ok, trackbot 20:31:20 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:31:20 Date: 08 December 2016 20:31:37 Chair: Nikos 20:31:39 scribe: nikos 20:32:26 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016Dec/0002.html 20:33:08 present+ nikos 20:33:26 present+ stakagi 20:33:31 present+ AmeliaBR 20:37:58 present+ Tav 20:39:54 present+ shepazu 20:39:58 Topic: SVG 2 feature feedback 20:39:59 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkqzcxY53h7liRYppLSSFG2sjaJ8V8TCP5rWLZK0AxA/edit?usp=sharing 20:40:16 nikos: We have feedback from MS, Google, and FireFox 20:40:47 ... it's not very promising. Lots of 'don't support' 20:41:46 ... I would like to get some context - is this we won't ever support, or we don't have time to work in the next year 20:42:09 Tav: I think I'm going to end my involvement. This is basically nothing 20:42:16 ... InkScape will probably move away from SVG too 20:42:33 shepazu: Just because Microsoft won't implement things, doesn't mean we won't get other implementations 20:42:52 AmeliaBR: As you said Nikos, we need to get clarification if this is just this year or ever 20:43:03 ... certainly not supporting text in shape is rather strange when some browsers already support shape-text in css 20:43:12 shepazu: not supporting text-orientation? That's weird 20:43:24 AmeliaBR: that's already been fully implemented in places 20:43:46 Tav: yeah I guess it should be clarified. But this basically says SVG 2 is dead as far as I can tell 20:43:51 ... there's really almost nothing in here 20:45:05 AmeliaBR: it looks like they've gone through and marked what they are actually working on 20:47:18 ... I think text-transform is already supported in all browsers and has been marked as a X 20:47:51 nikos: Seems like next stage is to have a discussion with the people who gave feedback 20:48:26 AmeliaBR: The problem we have is the people who are representatives are not the people who use or implement SVG 20:48:44 ... we see it on GitHub where the people filing issues are not the people who are representatives 20:49:12 We are now developing to implement the implementation of vector-effect and embedded content to firefox. 20:49:26 ... having people who are graphically involved with the authoring process is important for understanding the pain points, etc 20:49:55 AmeliaBR: it needs to be said, without browser support for advanced SVG. Is the SVG spec naturally going to fork? Is there still a desire for an open format for vector graphics? 20:50:02 ... if you can't use those vector graphics in web sites? 20:50:20 ... We would basically need specialised graphics software - Adobe and possibly others, to get involved 20:50:34 ... is there support for going ahead with standardisation of a version of SVG with advanced graphical features? 20:50:42 ... and is there enough support in the W3C to continue that? 20:51:09 ... or is SVG as an advanced graphics language dead? And all that is useful at this point is to standardise it as it is currently supported in web browsers 20:51:25 ... and clean up cross browser incompatibilities without adding new features 20:52:16 nikos: My feeling is that you would be looking at a different set of W3C members to support SVG as a general open format for vectors 20:53:13 Tav: I had an interesting discussion with someone - was talking about a mesh gradient poly fill in Canvas. He noted that Canvas has great support and could see where SVG is hitting a wall 20:53:31 shepazu: The browsers have for a long time wanted to reduce features and optimise for polyfills and script implementation of features 20:53:39 ... their attitude towards SVG seems to reflect taht 20:54:07 ... I heard discussions about this at TPAC. They were oblivious to the fact that without script none of these features work 20:54:20 ... and all these features using script reduces performance client side 20:54:26 ... and the fidelity and ability of the language 20:54:43 ... I'm very disappointed by these results 20:55:16 ... To be frank, I don't think they're thinking very deeply about the problems on the web. Developers rather than browsers are leading the way 20:56:35 nikos: The things the browser vedors seem to want to work on are based on what the engineers want and the code they know well and that's pretty sad 21:00:12 Tav: In terms of manpower. Where are we? We have two people leaving at the end of the year. 21:00:43 shepazu: W3C will put a staff contact on if there's interest from the browsers in getting the cleaned up version of SVG 2 completed 21:01:30 nikos: I'd be willing to put in my own time if there's interest in new features and not just butchering the spec. There's little motivation for me to do that. 21:02:45 AmeliaBR: what I expect would happen is move SVG under CSSWG and the spec will be a tiny fraction of what we've been working on 21:02:51 shepazu: I'm not totally pessimistic. Think there's a chance for some CSS related features to be pushed forward. 21:03:45 nikos: Ok so let's talk about what our plan is now 21:03:54 shepazu: Tav has made it pretty clear what his plan is 21:04:19 Tav: I will definitely go ahead and do SVG 2 text - the way I wrote it there's SVG 1.1 fallback 21:04:25 ... so that will get done and will replace SVG 1.2 text 21:04:31 ... mesh gradients are going to be released 21:05:10 nikos: Good. I think InkScape totally following the SVG spec is unnecessary. It should push ahead 21:05:18 Tav: It will - carefully 21:05:37 shepazu: If things are to move to incubation. There's a possibility of doing some stuff in an incubator group 21:06:30 ... maybe it's time for developers to look at it from a polyfill perspective and take control of SVG, because the browsers don't seem to be leading on it 21:06:52 +1 21:07:07 Tav: I had problems with mesh gradients because there's no way to embed a canvs in an svg shape 21:07:19 shepazu: Think we could get traction with that because that's the direction they want to go in 21:07:46 Tav: I came across bugs in Chrome and Firefox that blocked me 21:07:56 ... haven't documented them yet - was going to bring them up with the group 21:08:04 shepazu: When you get the chance, you should file some bugs 21:09:21 nikos: Houdini custom paint is promising. I have a feeling it may not be powerful enough for that sort of pixel bashing. 21:09:42 ... It's something we should have a go at so we can provide feedback 21:09:52 Tav: I can provide some topics for next week if we want to talk about this 21:09:58 nikos: Ok. It's worth documenting them 21:12:36 nikos: Let's call the meeting there 21:12:42 RRSAgent: make minutes 21:12:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/08-svg-minutes.html nikos 23:51:03 stakagi has joined #svg