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07:47:04 <phila> meeting: Smart Descriptions & Smarter Vocabularies (SDSVoc) Day 1
07:47:06 <phila> chair: PhilA
07:47:17 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/11/sdsvoc/agenda
07:47:27 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Smart Descriptions & Smarter Vocabularies (SDSVoc) Day 1
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08:05:28 <PWinstanley> present+ PWinstanley
08:05:35 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
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08:06:53 <phila> Topic: Opening remarks
08:06:57 <nandana> present+ nandana
08:07:03 <phila> present+ phila
08:07:19 <phila> Jacco and Phil made general opening welcomes
08:07:36 <phila> Topic: VRE4EIC Project, CERIF
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08:10:37 <phila> Keith: Follows slides which are self describing
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08:10:43 <phila> scribe: phila
08:10:50 <phila> scribeNick: phila
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08:12:55 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:13:05 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:13:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
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08:15:54 <phila> Keith: Talks about context of a citation, which includes many facets
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08:18:03 <phila> ... Gets in a slight dig about 'the later Dublin Core'
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08:25:11 <phila> [Not making many notes here as Keith's slides are comprehensive]
08:30:35 <phila> AndreaPerego: You said you have mapping, Keith. Temporal dimension seems to be missing?
08:31:03 <phila> keith: Yes, it's missing and we know that. Metadata often ignores temporal
08:31:12 <phila> AndreaPerego: Do you plan to add, maybe using PROV?
08:31:41 <phila> Keith: We're working on Prov-o with Kerry Taylor, and there's an ENVRI+ project
08:31:59 <phila> PeterW: Acronym hell. RDA means something else
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08:32:11 <phila> Keith: Sorry, yes. resource Description
08:32:29 <phila> PeterW: So RDA is the body to use for this?
08:32:44 <phila> Keith: I did point out the acronym clash
08:33:35 <phila> ThomasDH: You talked about locations and persons etc. In the EU context we have the Core Vocs. I hope we can merge? Across Govt and science?
08:33:46 <phila> ... Don't want differnet standards on different levels.
08:34:05 <phila> Keith: Yes, the VRE4EIC project has that in its sights. CERIF has concept of declared semantics.
08:34:25 <phila> ... Doesn't say you must use these semantics, but provides containers for semantics
08:34:58 <AndreaPerego> s/RDA means something else/RDA means something else (Resource Description and Access)
08:35:01 <PWinstanley> s/Agaist/Against
08:36:41 <PWinstanley> s/PeterW/PWinstanley
08:37:52 <phila> Topic:  Dataset Description Mode
08:38:11 <phila> AG: Talks about The HCLS Community Profile: Describing Datasets, Versions, and Distributions
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08:38:28 <phila> s/Dataset Description Mod/Dataset Description Models
08:38:41 <phila> AG: Talks about origin in OpenPHACTS project
08:39:10 <phila> ... Highlights ChemBL versioning issues
08:39:25 <phila> ... ChemBL was at version 13, but that number wasn't in our data
08:39:35 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:39:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
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08:40:07 <phila> AG: Still don't know if we used version 8 or 13 in OpenPHACTS
08:40:29 <phila> AG: Includes provenance feature so you can see where data items came from
08:40:48 <phila> ... Now using ChemBL 20
08:41:32 <phila> [Slides are self describing]
08:42:49 <phila> AG: contrasts DC and VOiD as opposite ends of spectrum, neither met requirements for HCLS
08:44:25 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/ Dataset Descriptions: HCLS Community Profile
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08:47:35 <phila> AG: Talks about mandatory and optional properties
08:47:40 <phila> ... This requires tooling
08:47:50 <phila> ... Developed the validata tool, more on that tomorrow.
08:48:04 <phila> ... Several implementations of HCLS profile
08:48:42 <phila> AG: Emphasises thjat we need to know about versions
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08:49:17 <phila> Q: Adopted beyond your community?
08:49:28 <phila> AG: Not aware of it but it is generic and could be
08:49:52 <phila> Q: In latest version of DCAT-AP coves some of what you say
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08:50:11 <phila> AG: isVersionOf didn't exist when we were doing this 4 years ago, glad it's in DCAT-AP
08:50:17 <LarsG> s/coves/covers/
08:50:26 <phila> Jacco: Debate about whether version is in the URL?
08:50:47 <phila> AG: We don't say that, just that there should be different URLs for summary description, etc.
08:51:03 <phila> Topic: Andrea Perego Using DCAT-AP for research data
08:51:11 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
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08:51:57 <phila> AndreaPerego: Introduces DCAT-AP
08:52:14 <phila> -> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/dcat_application_profile/description DCAT-AP
08:52:25 <phila> AndreaPerego: Introduces JRC
08:53:16 <phila> [Slide on JRC is self explanatory]
08:54:28 <phila> AndreaPerego: Talks about wide variety of methods and standards. Some people asking what metadata is
08:57:27 <phila> AndreaPerego: Talking about citations. Some people don't care about their data being cited.
08:58:54 <phila> AndreaPerego: Prov used for complex/complete info
08:59:00 <phila> ... On Data Citation
09:00:03 <phila> ... Data reproducability is important for policy as well as science
09:00:25 <phila> ... Did a mapping exercise between DCAP-AP and DataCite
09:01:30 <phila> ... Mostly good matches
09:02:44 <phila> ... Agent Roles seems particularly hard
09:02:54 <phila> ... May need a registry of roles to use across standards
09:03:48 <phila> AndreaPerego: Skips to Publishing metadata on the Web
09:03:58 <phila> ... Talks about mapping to schema.org
09:04:13 <phila> ... Identified some gaps. But do we need to fill those in schema.org?
09:04:28 <phila> ... Do we need to publish all our metadata, or just what improves visibility?
09:05:14 <phila> AxelPolleres: Is there any effort to endorse identifiers like ORCID?
09:05:49 <phila> ... The link with STORK etc. would be interesting, but there's no initiative AFAIK
09:06:04 <phila> Keith: Often IDs are associated with a role, like ORCID and Driving Licence info
09:06:26 <phila> Ivan: Force11 had their general principles. Did you match against those?
09:06:33 <phila> AndreaPerego: Yes, we have looked at that, and FAIR
09:06:46 <phila> ... Trying to address practical issues
09:06:55 <phila> Ivan: Sure they're at a higher level
09:07:01 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:07:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
09:07:13 <phila> Topic: The Metadata Ecosystem of DataID
09:07:30 <phila> Markus: I'm release manager of DBPedia
09:07:43 <phila> ... We have a lot of data in our releases
09:07:50 <phila> [Slides include text]
09:11:43 <phila> q+ to ask about MR licences and agent names
09:12:24 <AxelPolleres> FWIW, further to my question… there seem to have been some efforts to e.g. link STORK (national eIDs) to ECAS, cf. https://www.eid-stork.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=253&Itemid=83 … the reason why I had asked about links to ORCID is that many of the information you have to provide to the EU for ECAS overlap with info covered in ORCID, e.g. publications, grants, etc.
09:16:24 <phila> [Slides still self-explanatory]
09:17:36 <phila> Markus: Talks about core and extensions in DataID for things like statistics, you need extra fields
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09:22:09 <phila> phila: You used ODRL a little, but not a lot. Is it lacking?
09:22:19 <phila> Markus: Nothing fixed yet, open to change
09:22:31 <phila> phila: GOod - ODRL on Rec Track now so speak up!
09:22:33 <phila> q-
09:22:46 <phila> Topic: Towards a Common Description Vocabulary for Industrial Datasets
09:23:03 <phila> CM: Work with Soeren Auer
09:23:56 <phila> CM: Introduces Smart Services and Industry 4.0
09:24:19 <phila> ... Talks about needing to be aware of privacy and some control over data
09:24:50 <phila> ... Want to build reference architecture for secure data infrastructure, retaining sovereignty
09:25:26 <phila> CM: IDS = Industrial Data Spaces
09:26:31 <phila> CM: Industrial Data Space vocab as glue to capture domain-spcific semantics
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09:26:50 <phila> [Slide self explanatory]
09:29:04 <phila> CM: IDS defining own protocol
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09:32:29 <phila> -> http://ids.semantic-interoperability.org/ The Industrial Data Space Metadata Vocabulary
09:34:58 <phila> Q: How specific is this to industrial data? Can it work in other domains?
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09:35:32 <phila> CM: It's about requirements, like security. Things like which vocabs to use for different tasks, not domains
09:36:05 <phila> PeterW; have you though of entity resolution. What metadata to associate with their data? They may not know.
09:36:32 <phila> CM: No, we've not looked at that. We want to partner with data publishers and help them make their data more easily found on the Web.
09:36:50 <phila> Topic: Loupe - An RDF Dataset Description Model for Expressing Vocabulary Usage Patterns
09:37:00 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:37:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
09:38:20 <phila> nandana: 2 use cases we have problems with
09:38:32 <phila> ... Discovery, I don't want to spend a lot of time searching.
09:39:03 <phila> ... data for training machine learning is hard to find automatically
09:39:45 <phila> nandana: Another use case - if Imn an ontology engineer, I'd like to see how my vocab has been used in a dataset, to see if my conceptualisation matches reality
09:39:55 <phila> ... e.g. where is the SSN Ontology used?
09:40:23 <phila> ... This can be done using LOD stats but if you want to know how they were used, ranges etc. that's harder
09:40:55 <phila> [slides descriptive]
09:42:31 <phila> nandana: Wraps up brief presentation and invites questions
09:43:03 <phila> AG: Can you give a statistical report about which properties and classes are linked
09:44:00 <phila> Topic: Discussion
09:44:17 <phila> Keith: Big range of topics. Expressivity etc.
09:44:39 <phila> makx: I was hearing things like there is this standard, but it didn't work for me.
09:45:06 <phila> ... You need to be aware - we need to try and solve a problem. DC tries to ;look at common problems, CERIF tries to go into depth
09:45:39 <phila> Makx: We spent most time trying to solve common problems. DC and DCAT start simple and then people complain that things are missing
09:45:43 <phila> ... You can extend
09:46:06 <phila> ... You come up with different requirements and you soon come up with 50 properties that are never used
09:46:19 <phila> MF: I agree. The general approach of DCAT has its benefits
09:46:37 <phila> ... But there is important data misisng when we handle datasets. For e.g. more specific prov info
09:46:52 <phila> ... Basic pattern of catalogue, dataset and distribution has prevailed
09:47:04 <phila> ... But we shojld look at how to improve DCAT and that's whey we're here
09:47:23 <phila> AG: In HCLS we didn't want to cme up with a standard, just a profile that used existing ones
09:47:51 <phila> PeterW: I find lots of people talking about differente metadata frameorks but less about the data that goes into them
09:48:13 <phila> ... Some ilustrations of marked up stuff. If I have a dataset, what are the frameworks that match the pattern of the data that I have
09:48:25 <phila> ... Maybe ML techniques can be used.
09:49:00 <phila> Keith: The papers have more. The RDA has a metadata standards group that is making a list of hte available metadata schemes. Nots of work coming from Digital Curatiuon Centre (see Kevin Ashley)
09:49:35 <phila> Q: Automatic machine readable to access the data itself, not just a URL
09:49:42 <phila> MF: Yes, this is a task for us
09:49:49 <phila> ... This problem came up a lot
09:49:57 <phila> ... I'm hooing for insights from other directions
09:50:20 <phila> Q: Accessing satellite data for e.g. you need to restrict the access to specific subsets.
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09:50:33 <phila> ... There are rest APIs like Swagger, but there's no predefined method
09:50:36 <PWinstanley_> present+ PWinstanley
09:50:48 <phila> CM: Lotys of approaches for describing services on the Web, but haven't had a lot of impact for some raeson
09:51:05 <phila> CM: Maybe because they introduce complexity
09:51:17 <phila> nandana: Hydra CG is in thaty direction
09:51:30 <phila> Q: But that's very restricted to Rest.
09:51:52 <phila> AndreaPerego: We have a bar camp on this specific topic :-)
09:52:15 <phila> MF: It's a big issue. We're dealing with datasets usuall,y not endpoints
09:53:11 <phila> phila: Talks about subsetting issue Open Search etc.
09:53:28 <phila> Keith: You can't get into the data because it's too big so you don't know what to ask for
09:53:54 <phila> AndreaPerego: Talks about different levels that can be addressed. Need to include users
09:54:12 <phila> Keith: Geonetwork allows you to peek into the data to see if you're in the right area
09:54:55 <phila> CM: Working with industrial partners - tooling is very important. If you have a schema, you need the partners to tell you the detail you need
09:55:15 <phila> AG: We developed a very specific tool that was user-driven
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09:55:44 <phila> ... focussed ion user-friendliness so it's not easily transferrable
09:56:10 <LarsG> s/ ion / on /
09:56:41 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:56:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
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10:56:25 <Caroline_> Zakim, how is scribing?
10:56:25 <Zakim> sorry, Caroline_, I do not understand your question
10:56:31 <Caroline_> Zakim, scribe
10:56:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe', Caroline_
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11:32:17 <damires> Present+ damires
11:34:56 <LarsG> me Caroline_ yes, apologies for not mentioning all of you!
11:35:16 <LarsG> s/me Caroline_ yes, apologies for not mentioning all of you!//
11:37:40 <danbri> :)
11:40:32 <PWinstanley> could panel members please talk to the room rather then just among themselves - it's not easy to hear them without PA sytems
11:41:02 <danbri> there's a microphone on the front desk, is it not wired up?
11:41:16 <danbri> s/front/smaller/
11:42:33 <PWinstanley> @danbri:  it is needed at the larger table for the group discussion
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11:46:59 <phila> Call for greater clarity in some of the DCAT definitions. Also guidance, perhaps a primer. Take various national APs as input
11:48:32 <PWinstanley> @phila:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2015Jul/att-0010/DCAT-APimplementationguide.pdf needs to be updated
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11:57:23 <danbri> can I respond to the google/schema question?
11:58:52 <danbri> ok will respond later
12:06:51 <phila> Dee is in charge, not me :-)
12:07:35 <phila> Discussion around data that is not published in rarely versions
12:07:48 <phila> Need to handle data that changes all the time (real time data etc.)
12:10:10 <AxelPolleres> +1 volatile/dynamic datasets probably need different metadata than “slower changing” datesets… where more versioning vocab is an issue.
12:10:52 <PWinstanley> mutable vs immutable datasets is relevant information
12:11:54 <AxelPolleres> there are different forms of “mutable”, e.g. (monotone) growing vs. actually changing… is that  reflected in any of the existing vocabs?
12:12:27 <PWinstanley> @AxelPolleres:  yes, that's my point
12:12:35 <AxelPolleres> for us (use case crawling and tracking changes/evolution) it would be terribly useful if these were advertised.
12:13:26 <AxelPolleres> s/terribly/very(!)/
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12:13:34 <jrvosse> Danielle Bailo: what are the boundaries of DCAT?
12:15:48 <jrvosse> Andreas Kuckartz: DCAT seems less useful for describing binary programs
12:16:29 <jrvosse> Makx: Some people in the WG see DCAT as very general that can describe many things
12:20:32 <newton> PWinstanley and AxelPolleres it's a real issue, we had some discussions about it during DWBP meetings
12:21:27 <newton> I would like to see this addressed on the charter of a new WG
12:21:33 <AxelPolleres> newton, are you aware of any vocabs that actually define this difference? i.e., monotone groth vs. arbitrary changes, changeFrequency, groethrate, etc.?
12:23:41 <antoine> newton, Axel: there used to be a vocabulary for 'accrcual policies' at DC. Mayb e not the right granularity though.
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13:20:18 <Caroline_> Present_ Caroline_
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13:21:05 <jrvosse> Linda van den Brink from Geonovum on geospatial data
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13:21:41 <jrvosse> ... a key problem is that people from outside the geo domain do not understand the standards we use
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13:22:33 <jrvosse> * I'm scribing but feel free to add
13:24:33 <phila> scribe: Jacco
13:24:38 <phila> scribeNick: jrvosse
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13:29:33 <jrvosse> Linda is discussing a testbed testing use of mappings in the context of geoDCAT (see https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/node/154143/) and schema.org
13:30:07 <jrvosse> see slides for testbed report
13:32:49 <jrvosse> Q: Jacco: what do you think the key mission of a new WG be?
13:33:36 <jrvosse> A: Lynda: Small core of a standard, for SDI coverage is really key, quality is also very important
13:33:57 <jrvosse> Q: Phil: is something like the dcterms spatial concept core?
13:34:06 <jrvosse> A: Lynda: yes
13:35:09 <jrvosse> Q: Daniele Bailo: Is the loss of data in the mappings really an issue for end users on the web?
13:35:53 <jrvosse> L: Linda: Maybe not, for discovery it may not be a problem. There are levels of importance
13:36:01 <jrvosse> s/Lynda/Linda
13:37:08 <jrvosse> Andrea Perego on GeoDCAT-AP
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13:42:10 <jrvosse> GeoDCAT-AP not replacing existing standards such as INSPIRE or ISO metadata for spatial, but providing extra interoperability by providing RDF-binding
13:42:25 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:42:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
13:43:03 <jrvosse> s/ISO/ISO 19115
13:43:23 <phila> Topic: Time and Space
13:43:30 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:43:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
13:47:27 <jrvosse> ... need for http conneg on profiles/schemas not just on format
13:50:39 <jrvosse> ... need to model dataset distributions, distinguish data sets from data APIs
13:54:29 <jrvosse> ... need for best practices for quality-related descriptions, there are too many patterns/standards
13:55:49 <jrvosse> Q: Keith Jeffrey: need spatial coordidates both for what is observed and from where, what are your thoughts?
13:56:40 <jrvosse> A: Yes, this is a difficult problem, also in crowdsource context and other contexts, but is not addressed at the metadata level, more at the level of the features
13:57:29 <jrvosse> Q: Herbert: New iso spec "Resources" from those that made PMH, but more "webby"
13:58:02 <jrvosse> Hermert: I'm involved in signposting.org which is also relevant
13:58:32 <jrvosse> s/Hermert/Herbert/
13:58:43 <LarsG> s/Resources/ResourceSync/
13:59:12 <jrvosse> Topic: Panel on Time and Space
13:59:33 <jrvosse> Otakar Čerba  joins panel
14:00:47 <jrvosse> Otakar Čerba I'm here because we are developing a smart points of interest RDF dataset with 120M POI published, incl via a SPARQL endpoint
14:01:18 <jrvosse> Daniele Bailo joins the panel
14:01:58 <jrvosse> Daniele Bailo represents the EPOS geo ESFRI with lots of geospatial data
14:02:33 <jrvosse> ... with many different types of data, this needs to be reflected in the metadata
14:04:09 <jrvosse> ...  need to think about who the audience is: general web users vs scientists from specific domains?
14:04:13 <jrvosse> ...  need to think about who the audience is: general web users vs scientists from specific domains?
14:05:07 <jrvosse> Q Bart: is just getting the metadata currently not too complicated already?
14:05:21 <AxelPolleres> remark Re: dataset vs service description - this is also to some extent related to the issue we mentioned before some time up in the chat about fast-changing/highly dynamic data (which may be rather seen as a service than a dataset)
14:05:56 <jrvosse> A Andrea: Yes, for the general public ISO may be too much, especially if it is just for discovery purposes
14:07:33 <jrvosse> ... for us , a dataset is what you decided to call a dataset
14:08:16 <jrvosse> Linda: I see dcat as something for portals to find and reuse each other data sets, not necessarily as something for the end user
14:09:29 <jrvosse> Daniele: I know the scientific user relatively well, typically does not want general web search. The "web use"r could be an software agent or human user.
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14:11:43 <jrvosse> Otakar: same experience, users often do not use metadata. We have many Czech data portals but few real users
14:12:40 <jrvosse> Andrea: my students use Google also because they do not know where the data is, this also makes it important to publish data on the Web
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14:14:02 <jrvosse> Daniele: I agree, but I'm trying to understand the requirements for doing so. In my community people tend not to use persistent IDs or even URLs. This si a challenge/
14:14:38 <newton> s/This si/This is/
14:15:03 <jrvosse> Bart: high level conclusion could be that there is too much info from the data in the metadata
14:15:39 <jrvosse> Otakar: we also need feature metadata in the geo spatial domain
14:16:43 <jrvosse> Andrea: data quality is more general that just spatial, and solutions can be reused for other domains
14:17:37 <jrvosse> Linda: spatial coverage is key for first discovery step, use of all other quality and prov metadata is part of a second step
14:18:17 <jrvosse> Daniele: what is need is on the scientific side is a huge effort on data and metadata harmonisation
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14:46:39 <deirdrelee> scribe: deirdrelee
14:46:49 <jrvosse> topic: Searching for data
14:47:17 <deirdrelee> Show Me The Way session
14:47:52 <deirdrelee> Searching for data session
14:48:02 <deirdrelee> Dmytro Potiekhin
14:48:11 <deirdrelee> CivicOS: Governance & Campaigning Data Standard
14:48:43 <deirdrelee> dmytro: worked in ukraine
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14:49:26 <deirdrelee> ... important to work with civil society and citizens is very important when there is danger of falsification at elections
14:49:59 <deirdrelee> ... integrating data is an important issue to protect democracy
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14:50:08 <Caroline_> Present+ Caroline_
14:50:22 <deirdrelee> ... it is  obvious w/out a proper voabulary describing needs of civil society, this is impossible
14:50:46 <AndreaPerego> zakim, who is on irc?
14:50:46 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndreaPerego.
14:50:46 <deirdrelee> ... secondly, it is impossible to create such a vocabulary from top-down approach
14:50:53 <AndreaPerego> zakim, who is here?
14:50:53 <Zakim> Present: PWinstanley, AndreaPerego, nandana, phila, newton, Ivan, BartvanLeeuwen, Caroline_, brandon, damires
14:50:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see AndreaPerego, Caroline_, damires, LarsG, newton, deirdrelee, bgrova, jrvosse, phila, brandon, Jim, Keith, DaveBr, pascaline, oystein, Zakim, RRSAgent
14:51:08 <deirdrelee> ... e.g. even with vocabularies that the european commission are working on
14:51:25 <LarsG> present+ LarsG
14:51:26 <deirdrelee> ... this vocab or set of interoperability vocabs must be demand driven
14:51:37 <deirdrelee> ... something that is accepted by the citizens
14:51:49 <deirdrelee> ... this is CivicOS
14:52:18 <deirdrelee> ... if we can unite efforts around development of such vocabularies, I am glad to help and this is what I am trying to do with colleagues
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14:52:38 <deirdrelee> ... e.g. i am collaborating with the Stanford ?? Institute
14:52:58 <deirdrelee> ... this is not just a problem for Ukranians, but it is a global problem
14:53:13 <deirdrelee> ... my final request would be, not to just give everything to the governments.
14:53:40 <deirdrelee> ... in democratic societies, it is okay for governments to have all this technology, etc.
14:53:53 <danbri> danbri has joined #sdsvoc
14:53:56 <deirdrelee> ... but in countries still fighting for democracy, this can be a problem
14:54:22 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #sdsvoc
14:54:35 <PWinstanley> present+ PWinstanley
14:54:59 <deirdrelee> ... for an example, there are often petitions to put pressure on governments. but if the petition is done by the governments, it is beuracratic. and it is also giving them a contact list of people that disagree with them
14:55:17 <deirdrelee> ... undermining civil society and what they are trying to achieve
14:55:28 <PWinstanley> s/beuracratic/bureaucratic
14:56:10 <deirdrelee> ... i encourage to keep developing vocabularies, but also to retain the activation and development of civil society
14:56:29 <deirdrelee> kevin: questiions?
14:57:24 <deirdrelee> kevin: the situation at the moment isn't ideal for discovery and interoperability of data, for the use-case you are talking about - empowering citizens
14:58:09 <deirdrelee> dmytro: for the commercial part it is working great, e.g. flight information automatically added to google calender
14:58:25 <deirdrelee> ... so standards are already working, but this needs to be brought to our community
14:58:51 <AndreaPerego> s/questiions/questions/
14:58:59 <deirdrelee> ... in egovernment, we see this too. but we see a trend to focus on egovernment, and not on egovernance or ecivilsociety
15:00:12 <jrvosse> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:00:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html jrvosse
15:00:43 <deirdrelee> ... these platforms should be controlled by civil society, not by dictators
15:01:13 <deirdrelee> ... even if personal identity issues are resolved, there will be interoperability issues
15:01:46 <deirdrelee> .. and this integration should not be less successful than government or commercial sectors
15:02:15 <deirdrelee> ... we need to apply these commercial standards in the government and civil society sectors
15:02:38 <deirdrelee> phila: you mentioned you wanted to integrate with schema.org
15:03:33 <deirdrelee> dmytro: we are experienced in the structures of what makes civil society works
15:03:45 <deirdrelee> ... but these are not described in schema.org
15:04:01 <deirdrelee> ... e.g. we have a list of 200 different types on non-violent actions
15:04:11 <deirdrelee> ... the leading vocabularies only document about 5
15:04:41 <deirdrelee> ... we would like to collaborate on the development of vocabularies and how to incorporate into schema
15:05:19 <deirdrelee> danbri: you can just go ahead and develop a vocabulary. we have built extensions that facilitate that
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15:05:58 <deirdrelee> ... there are some generic descriptions that could potentially in schema.org core, and for more detailed terms, extension might be best
15:06:04 <deirdrelee> ... but happy to chat
15:06:42 <deirdrelee> attendee: there is some similar work being done in the US, by beth novack, called ???
15:07:12 <deirdrelee> ... this can have an impact and is similar to what you were talking aboutj
15:07:22 <danbri> cf huridocs for human rights documentation
15:07:37 <deirdrelee> danbri: we were actually discussing schema.org and the documentation of hate crimes last week
15:07:46 <deirdrelee> ... happy to continue discussions
15:07:58 <deirdrelee> Raf Buyle
15:08:06 <deirdrelee> topic: The Public Sector DNA on the web: semantically marking up government portals.
15:08:32 <deirdrelee> s/aboutj/about
15:09:05 <damires> present+ damires
15:09:20 <deirdrelee> Raf: representing the Flemish Government
15:10:01 <deirdrelee> ... we believe publi services should be centered around citizens and businesses
15:10:23 <deirdrelee> ... today if you ask for info online about opening times and location of public building you get it
15:10:50 <deirdrelee> ... we think this should go further, e.g. providing info on using services
15:11:04 <deirdrelee> ... need to link to base registries
15:11:11 <LarsG> s/publi/public/
15:11:26 <deirdrelee> ... flemish governmetn is working on strategy to add markup to government portals
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15:11:52 <deirdrelee> ... we have seen success with schema.org, etc. this can be a bridge between public and private sectors
15:12:32 <deirdrelee> ... the citizen wants to find the info on the public service they want, regardless of public body providing it
15:12:56 <deirdrelee> ... we are looking at using and extending open standards, e.g. from W3C, ISA, OGC, etc.
15:13:41 <deirdrelee> ... the European Interoperability Framework states that you should look at all layers of interoperability, semantic, technical, etc
15:14:18 <deirdrelee> ... base registries are fundamental, but it is very difficult to get this data on the web, to integrate it with the private sector
15:15:04 <deirdrelee> ... imagine if we could ask private company, like google, about public services. where you could make an appointment, all the information at a user's fingertips
15:15:40 <deirdrelee> ... bridging between public and private sectors. schema.org is working very well. it has been widely adopted
15:15:52 <deirdrelee> ... this could be a strategy to get public services information out there
15:16:41 <deirdrelee> ... schema.org was first to discover data, but it is also used for new data services, e.g. bing and google knowledge graph
15:16:52 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:16:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
15:17:19 <deirdrelee> ... we have a pilot [slide with architecture diagram]
15:18:07 <deirdrelee> ... we would like to combine schema.org with ISA core vocabularies
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15:18:56 <deirdrelee> ... rdfs:seealso pointing from a schema.org resource to a isa core voc resource shows that more info is available
15:19:20 <deirdrelee> ... we are waiting to rolling this our on local and regional level
15:19:46 <deirdrelee> ... on the one hand, we are saying it is not difficult to annotate data in this way
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15:20:11 <deirdrelee> ... we also want to see if these annotations are picked up by major search engines
15:20:39 <deirdrelee> ... and also interested in seeing if the search engines will pick up the extra ISA core voc info and display that as well
15:21:21 <deirdrelee> ... i have some questions [FEEDBACK slide with questions]
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15:22:56 <deirdrelee> kevin: questions?
15:23:23 <deirdrelee> PWinstanley: what kind of mechanisms can we use to avoid false information getting into system?
15:24:26 <deirdrelee> Raf: i talked about a feedback loop. perhaps there could be a validation check comparing the original data and data being presented
15:24:41 <deirdrelee> Luis-Daniel Ibáñez
15:24:48 <deirdrelee> How we search for data? Towards User-Driven dataset descriptions
15:25:10 <phila> s/How we search for data? Towards User-Driven dataset descriptions/Topic: How we search for data? Towards User-Driven dataset descriptions/
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15:26:13 <deirdrelee> Luis-Daniel: For better data search
15:27:10 <deirdrelee> ... we carried out an analysis of data searches by talking to data professionals and analysing logs from data portals
15:28:00 <deirdrelee> ... [reads feedback from interviews - quotes from data professionals]
15:28:20 <deirdrelee> ... we found a lot of things that we discussed in previous talks
15:28:44 <deirdrelee> ... something maybe to highlight is users asking for a summary/preview of data
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15:28:57 <PWinstanley> present+ PWinstanley
15:29:21 <deirdrelee> ... with quantitative results, mainly desktop devices, etc....
15:30:01 <deirdrelee> ... 68% of queries came from web search engines, suggesting that dat search is a work-related activity and people are relying on general-purpose search engines
15:30:38 <deirdrelee> ... is this because people use what they know or data portals are not doing their job properly? still open question for us
15:31:35 <deirdrelee> ... query characteristics show exploratory search, e.g. 'crime' - show me all crime data, not specific query
15:32:42 <deirdrelee> Artemis Lavasa
15:32:50 <deirdrelee> topic: CERN Analysis Preservation
15:34:30 <deirdrelee> Artemis: our aim is to capture, analyse and preserve data
15:34:56 <deirdrelee> ... we need to preserve the tools, processing steps, etc. we capture everything
15:35:13 <deirdrelee> ... we want to have as much context as possible so that we can recreate thata in future
15:35:32 <deirdrelee> ... we capture all that information via our forms
15:35:45 <deirdrelee> ... we describe our information using a json-based schema
15:35:58 <deirdrelee> ... it can handle complex metadata, which we have
15:36:26 <deirdrelee> ... the data capture forms are rich, so can be very long and vary a lot from experiment to experiment
15:36:49 <deirdrelee> ... [showing slide of example metadata]
15:37:24 <deirdrelee> ... we work closely with physicists and callibrate them according to their needs
15:38:15 <deirdrelee> ... in order to facilitate search, we need this metadata. e.g. a physicist might want to look at a particular particle, so looking at the title of the metadata is not sufficient
15:38:37 <deirdrelee> ... we need intelligent search, very precise
15:39:28 <deirdrelee> ... we played around with schema.org and json-ld. we could describe the high-level information, but not specialised fields.
15:39:40 <deirdrelee> ... we would like to use a standardised approach
15:40:18 <deirdrelee> ... i have tried to harmonise the schemas we have, but 80% of fields are something unique to what a physicist wanted
15:41:08 <deirdrelee> Alejandra Gonzalez-Beltran
15:41:16 <deirdrelee> topic: DATS: dataset descriptions for data discovery in DataMed
15:41:59 <deirdrelee> Alejandra: project funded by NIH in the US
15:43:07 <deirdrelee> ... DATS DatA Tag Suite is used to index data sources in datamed
15:43:31 <deirdrelee> ... [slide with online links to work]
15:43:56 <deirdrelee> ... we focus on the findability and accessiblity of datasets
15:44:55 <deirdrelee> ... we rely on adoption by data providers
15:45:29 <deirdrelee> ... we started by collecting lots of use-cases from the community and by looking at existing schemas
15:46:02 <deirdrelee> ... we considered multiple existing models, e.g. schema.org, datacite, rif-cs, hcls, dcat, etc
15:46:47 <deirdrelee> ... these models are lacking some elements in use-cases
15:47:09 <deirdrelee> ... we also looked at domain-specific models from biomed domain
15:47:35 <deirdrelee> ... the DATS model is a combination of elements we needed
15:48:13 <deirdrelee> ... we split the model into core entities (adopted elements from  datacite and Force) and extended entities
15:48:51 <deirdrelee> ... we did a mapping to schema.org and looking at elixir
15:49:34 <deirdrelee> ... there are adopters of DATS, implementing it in their systems
15:49:48 <deirdrelee> ... i would like to thank groups that were involved
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15:49:58 <deirdrelee> Richard Nagelmaeker
15:50:05 <deirdrelee> topic: Linked Data needs a Data Location Service
15:50:36 <deirdrelee> RRSAgent: draft minutes
15:50:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html deirdrelee
15:52:18 <deirdrelee> Richard: I would like to pitch an idea to you
15:52:41 <deirdrelee> ... when i started with Linked Data, the idea was to put all data in one triple store
15:53:26 <deirdrelee> ... the internet has DNS
15:54:19 <deirdrelee> ... [shows slide with diagram]
15:54:45 <deirdrelee> ... there is data that as an organisation you have control over, and can have IRIs part of big picture
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15:55:12 <deirdrelee> ... but there is also information that as an organisation you want to know, but is external to the organisation
15:55:39 <deirdrelee> ... e.g. customers, suppliers, etc. but as they are external they will have different IRIs
15:56:19 <deirdrelee> the issue is that behind a sparql endpoint will always contain the IRIs of the domain of the endpoint
15:56:24 <Linda> Linda has joined #sdsvoc
15:56:29 <deirdrelee> ... DNS cannot help us
15:56:56 <deirdrelee> ... but the problem is similar to what DNS solves, so could it potentially help us find Linked Data IRIs?
15:57:48 <deirdrelee> ... there are a number of building blocks, e.g. triple stores, sparql endpionts, VOID
15:59:15 <deirdrelee> ... results slide..... resolves the discrepancy between dataset IRIs and IRIs of a SPARQL endpoint
15:59:20 <deirdrelee> Topic: panel
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16:00:46 <deirdrelee> kevin: what evidence do we have that any of the efforts we've been talking about today will help people find the data they want?
16:00:57 <deirdrelee> ... if we don't have evidence, how can we get it?
16:01:03 <deirdrelee> richard: just do it!
16:02:11 <deirdrelee> kevin: instead of let's building it and see what happens, well with the web, once something is implemented, how can you measure before?
16:03:13 <deirdrelee> PWinstanley: there was a project in 2004 on bioinformatics ?? that disappeared. Were the lessons learned from that picked up by alejandra's project?
16:04:20 <deirdrelee> alejandra: there was a heavy load, you had to build uml model, tag with ontologies, etc. I think the lessons learned is that there is a more 'webby' approach, lighter, easier
16:05:25 <deirdrelee> ... at least in biomedical databases, there is a lot of effort in curation. many databases already have ways to find data
16:05:44 <deirdrelee> ... hopefully we will help people search across databases
16:06:16 <deirdrelee> kevin: luis, you have looked at what users are actually behaving on open data portals
16:07:12 <deirdrelee> luis: one observation, for the qualitative part we were with data experts, but with the quantitative part, it was open to all users. those that just wanted an answer, not necessarily 'data'
16:08:31 <deirdrelee> danbri: there are two very different paths, one making data available to billions of people, and making data available to the tiny minority of people who want to analyse specific data
16:08:48 <deirdrelee> ... both are important and can have huge impact, but very different.
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16:09:45 <deirdrelee> ... ultimately, we want computer/google that knows the information, not just the data file
16:10:46 <deirdrelee> attendee: for luis' presentations, the one-word searches might be more related to people just finding an answer, not that there is structured data behind them
16:11:27 <deirdrelee> luis: we also know what people actually click on, not just search
16:12:14 <deirdrelee> Andreas Kuckner: will technologies like sparql still play a roll in ten years?
16:12:35 <PWinstanley> s/roll/role
16:12:53 <deirdrelee> richard: it depends how you look at IT. I think IT is a tool to help people. in this way i think sparql will be there
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16:13:22 <deirdrelee> ... the way i look at neural networks, they are trying to do something by themselves, this is a different kind of IT
16:13:24 <Caroline> Present+ Caroline
16:14:10 <deirdrelee> Raf: if you can look at rdf and sparql, i think these are approaches, moreso than technology
16:14:17 <PWinstanley> s/bioinformatics ??/bioinformatics [Cancer Bioinformatics Grid -- caBIG]
16:14:39 <deirdrelee> Artemis: i think in one way or another we all use rdf, so if not in this form it will survive in some form
16:14:59 <deirdrelee> luis: i think neural networks will learn how to use rdf
16:15:19 <deirdrelee> ... but the big question...will neural networks replace us all!
16:16:11 <deirdrelee> danbri: sparql is a very practical technology, which tend to stick around. I'm sure it'll be seen as a tool for using data, like sql and purl. but AI might increase more and more
16:17:37 <deirdrelee> kevin: will it be difficult to enrich data?
16:18:47 <deirdrelee> luis: it is important to know what has been done to the data, for example with crime data if the data was anonymised on purpose, should there be an effort to uncover the data that was removed?
16:19:20 <deirdrelee> alejandra: whatever the data is, what we care about is finding patterns in the data ...
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16:20:03 <deirdrelee> ... [question to luis] because you were looking at user search, were you constrained by keyword
16:20:26 <deirdrelee> luis: we wanted to see if people asked questions or used keyword search
16:21:27 <deirdrelee> phila: In Raf's case, data is relevant to everyone in Flanders (public) and Artemis' case is relevant to very specialised physicists
16:22:01 <deirdrelee> ... danbri said that csv data can be incorporated into google's knowledge graph using csv on the web
16:22:32 <deirdrelee> aremis: there is a cern data portal, with huge data releases - TBs and PBs of data
16:23:20 <deirdrelee> ... there is also private data, meant for collaborations
16:24:15 <deirdrelee> ... the analysis is for specific purposes, people wanted to preserve this, but it is very sensitive, it won't be opened. most people also wont be interested in this data
16:24:38 <deirdrelee> ... aim was to help physicists preserve their analysis. that was the demand
16:25:14 <deirdrelee> Raf: why are public services data important?
16:25:22 <deirdrelee> ... 1. if I want to move to flanders
16:25:31 <deirdrelee> ... and want to set up a business
16:26:25 <deirdrelee> 2. for business intelligence - e.g. you can compare how flanders compares to other regions, e.g. for a place to live
16:27:25 <deirdrelee> ... if this data is on the Web, more people can use these public services, lowering the barriers
16:27:58 <deirdrelee> danbri: a good thing from private orgs is that even if they can't release the data, you can release software
16:28:27 <deirdrelee> kevin: and also release info about the dat ais there, so that people can follow up on potential data access
16:29:03 <deirdrelee> BartvanLeeuwen: Raf, you asked is 'annotated data the new datset'?
16:29:34 <deirdrelee> ... so danbri is this something that will be possible
16:30:28 <deirdrelee> danbri: you can do ?productname?
16:30:57 <deirdrelee> ... there will also be dataset search, there is a page onine already, will distribute
16:31:17 <deirdrelee> ... we are looking at research data, data portals, we'll see what we can build
16:31:57 <deirdrelee> Raf: a lot of portals have feedback channels. should schema.org incorporate that?
16:32:32 <deirdrelee> danbri: maybe. schema.org is a dictionary, you have to build things with it. we have reviews, rating, etc
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16:34:31 <deirdrelee> Attendee: Describing datasets properly is a problem. also the problem is mapping the questions from natural language to sparql for example. A lot of problems around data discovery relates to where the  data is and what kind of data there is. Any comments on natural language to formal queries?
16:35:09 <deirdrelee> Alejandra: there is one pilot project who are looking into this question of how the user can find datasets
16:36:04 <deirdrelee> danbri: we did put question/answer in schema.org,e.g. stack overflow. and researchers are starting to pick up on that
16:36:43 <deirdrelee> ... i would hope there would be more focus on social aspects of open data portals, which could in turn help discoverability
16:36:45 <newton> Caro
16:37:19 <deirdrelee> attendee: What mechanisms can address general search but also very focused search?
16:37:29 <newton> s/Caro/
16:37:32 <deirdrelee> ... how does this affect reproducability
16:38:40 <deirdrelee> Raf: we combine schema.org at a general level for discoverabilty, which we combne with the core vocabularies which help with the specifics
16:39:22 <deirdrelee> alejandra: in the curation practices, generically it is very important to consider this. it is very relevant to know higher level terms and dmore specific terms that are speific
16:39:57 <deirdrelee> ... for reproducabilty it goes much further, you not only need the discoverability metadata, but also how the data was prepared, etc.
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16:40:28 <deirdrelee> danbri: we recentely added a field in schema.org variable
16:41:03 <deirdrelee> luis: to me there is the dataset search levels in metadata
16:41:24 <deirdrelee> ... but to answer a more detailed question, you have to go deeper
16:41:52 <deirdrelee> ... what is the effort involved in adding this to metadata
16:42:24 <deirdrelee> AndreaPerego: another piece of information on helping to find the data is how the data is being used
16:42:41 <deirdrelee> ... e.g. feedback from users, this is important data
16:43:07 <deirdrelee> ... datasets have been used for purposes other than their original purpose
16:43:50 <deirdrelee> ... people can see how other people have used the data and it might help them decide if it's useful for them
16:44:44 <deirdrelee> Raf: if you knew information about when people physically go to public services, this could help advise when people should go
16:45:01 <deirdrelee> ... info on how public services are used could help improve the service provided
16:45:48 <deirdrelee> luis: i agree, it's important to know how data is being used, but it's difficult to convince users of this
16:46:27 <deirdrelee> alejandra: something very important is data citations. it is great to have it, but it is limitations
16:47:17 <deirdrelee> danbri: when datasets are used and discovered, they can go to their funders and justify the availability of data
16:48:13 <deirdrelee> .. data citation in the scholarly sector is done, but it is not common for example in media
16:48:23 <deirdrelee> ... this might be turning point
16:48:56 <deirdrelee> alejandra: it is also important to have contact information
16:49:13 <newton> wonders if W3C WebMention spec could help with this issue of citation and data usage [ https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ ]
16:50:04 <deirdrelee> kevin: it is difficult to measure if we had implemented something differently, how would impact be different
16:50:56 <deirdrelee> ... guidelines like the w3c dwbp and csv on the web have been referenced a lot today, they're obviously very useful for the communityl
16:51:04 <deirdrelee> s/communityl/community
16:51:14 <deirdrelee> RRSAgent: generate minutes
16:51:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html deirdrelee
16:51:44 <deirdrelee> Time for wine and canapes!!!
16:53:39 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:53:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
16:53:43 <newton> +1 Dee
16:56:00 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:56:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/30-sdsvoc-minutes.html phila
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