12:23:58 RRSAgent has joined #poe 12:23:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-poe-irc 12:24:00 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:24:00 Zakim has joined #poe 12:24:02 Zakim, this will be 12:24:02 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 12:24:03 Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference 12:24:03 Date: 28 November 2016 12:24:09 present+ 12:24:57 renato has joined #poe 12:29:06 present+ 12:29:22 michaelS has joined #poe 12:29:33 present+ 12:30:00 present+ 12:32:16 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20161128 12:32:50 smyles has joined #poe 12:32:56 present+ 12:33:46 Brian_Ulicny has joined #poe 12:33:52 present+ 12:34:32 sabrina has joined #poe 12:34:35 zakim, pick a victim 12:34:35 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose simonstey 12:34:38 present+ 12:34:43 present+ 12:35:00 scribe; Sabrina 12:35:05 scribeNick: sabrina 12:35:06 Last meeting minutes 12:35:08 1st item is to approve last weeks minutes 12:35:09 scribe: Sabrina 12:35:20 Topic: Last week's minutes 12:35:24 https://www.w3.org/2016/11/21-poe-minutes.html 12:35:35 approved 12:35:47 renato: 1st item constraints 12:35:52 Topic: Constraints 12:36:20 renato: 2nd item discuss the agenda for next weeks virtual f2f 12:36:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:36:33 https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Constraints 12:36:45 renato: Any update from Michael on the definitions? 12:37:44 michaelS: added a new column which includes information on what should be deprecated 12:37:57 renato: Any comments from others? 12:38:37 phila: benws Asked for clarification on the constraints wiki document 12:39:43 phila: Asks for clarification on the "Proposal regarding the Constraint class: ...." text 12:40:54 CarolineB has joined #poe 12:41:41 michaelS: The proposal is to extend the operand class means we need to be clear what goes in the left and right operands 12:41:44 present+ CarolineB 12:43:25 renato: Just so we are clear we will be adding additional constraints to the vocabulary and replacing some... The issue is that we don't want to remove IRIs that are used... As an alternative we could change the label 12:43:26 http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/#term-dateTime 12:43:59 renato: The label is a human readable string 12:45:33 michaelS: The label is not included in the Wiki label just the term and the definition 12:46:29 renato: For the ones that you propose to update, suggest you check can this be done with the label instead of coming up with new IRIs 12:46:45 q+ 12:46:52 benws: If you change the meaning then perhaps you need a new URI? 12:47:19 renato: We are not changing the meaning 12:47:50 michaelS: If we create a new definition we might have to create a new URI ! 12:47:52 +q 12:48:10 benws: It depends on whether we are clarifying the meaning or changing the meaning 12:48:26 ack phila 12:48:47 michaelS: Some of them are very broad so we are in fact changing the meaning 12:49:08 phila: Do you have evidence that some of them are very braod? 12:49:38 q+ 12:50:36 phila: Concerned because in his opinion DateTime is very well defined.... 12:51:46 phila: If you change the definition mint a new URI, Dan Brickleys approach is to see how it is used... 12:52:09 simonstey: Regarding the URI i guess we will have a new URI for POE anyways? 12:52:17 q+ to caution on namespaces 12:52:24 ack sim 12:52:37 ack smyles 12:52:42 renato: We are currently using ODRL 2, but we need to decide if we use new URIs or not 12:54:30 q+ 12:55:56 Current implementation survey: 12:55:57 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dVAV6-IJkzlCCoF_ec-ywwUPVmtYuV89tk5ikqY-soQ/edit 12:56:10 ack me 12:56:10 phila, you wanted to caution on namespaces 12:57:09 Sabrina_ has joined #poe 12:57:23 Sorry I lost connectivity 12:57:47 +q 12:57:51 sck michaelS 12:58:02 ack michaelS 12:58:29 renato: Example of subclass would be absolute position and absolute temporal position 12:59:11 q+ 12:59:24 renato: As per what Phil said we need to be cautious about changing the namespaces and terms because the task of getting it through the standardisation process will be harder 12:59:34 ack simonstey 13:00:10 simonstey: skos:broader can be used to create such a hierarchy 13:00:41 http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ 13:00:43 http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ 13:00:54 Brian_Ulicny: Questions about the Github vocab doc... 13:01:25 renato: Make sure you are looking at the current editors draft 13:02:18 q+ to compare the diagrams in our Ed drafts and capital letters 13:02:19 renato: Can we keep the URIs and update the labels or create subclasses, which means we only add URIs for new terms 13:02:34 ack b 13:02:42 michaelS: Ya sure I can go through the list.... 13:04:28 phila: Looking at the 2 editors drafts and the diagrams are different... and I also noticed on the vocab that there is a property and class with the same name just one upper and lower case 13:04:38 ack me 13:04:38 phila, you wanted to compare the diagrams in our Ed drafts and capital letters 13:04:55 renato: I have already gone through, perhaps I missed this one... I will update it. 13:05:09 renato: The diagram is a work in progress 13:05:19 http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ 13:05:45 https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues 13:06:14 renato: Has been working on the Information model document with Serena and would like to release it, however there are still some open items 13:07:02 renato: are you ok with the proposed approach for constraints on constraints? 13:07:20 phila: Didn't Simon say that this proposal does not work? 13:08:00 simonstey: I said it is horrible, there are lots of issues such as loops and recursion that need to be taken care of. 13:08:08 q+ 13:08:18 renato: Propose to update the editors draft with the current proposal and go from there 13:08:18 ack benws 13:08:57 benws: I would find it useful if Simon could provide an example of looping 13:09:50 q+ 13:10:26 simonstey: The problem is that our model allows it.... Pointing to constraints from constraints... Even if it doesn't make sense we have to specify what would happen in the case of a loop. 13:11:06 simonstey: If you allow the functionality we have to provide guidance 13:11:36 ack me 13:11:50 phila: We cannot prevent stupidity....You could however put some guidance into the document. 13:12:24 https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20161205 13:12:26 renato: I will try to document and release to the group so we can have a long discussion next week in the virtual F2F 13:12:40 Topic: Agenda for virtual F2F 13:13:34 ODRL Information Model, ODRL Vocabulary and Expression, Use Cases and Requirements, ODRL Notes 13:14:29 renato: We still have a number of open issues.... We will not be able to get through all of them next week. We should go through the github issues and pick out the ones that we want to discuss... 13:14:50 renato: What needs to be done on the Use Cases and Requirements 13:15:23 simonstey: Aim towards a stable version for next week.... 13:15:43 simonstey: We need to make a decision on the constraints 1st 13:16:50 renato: Wait until the model and vocab are more robust 13:17:22 renato: The next one is the best practices note (Ben, Paul and Viktor are the editors) 13:17:59 benws: It might be useful if Viktor and I come up with some examples that we can discuss on the call next week 13:18:33 renato: Feel free to put whatever you like into the document for discussion next week 13:18:45 renato: Anything else that you want to discuss 13:19:20 renato: In terms of the process regarding the release of the documents can you provide some guidance 13:19:57 phila: You need to vote on the documents (i.e. are you happy for the document to go out as a snapshot) 13:21:04 phila: Due to Christmas moratorium - they need to go out by Thurs the 15th 13:21:15 q+ 13:21:34 There is no point rushing it through.... It might make more sense to wait until the new year 13:22:05 It is good that you are already implementing and proving that it works in practice 13:22:43 benws: Personally I won't have much time to work on the documents before Christmas 13:23:40 renato: We won't rush getting the documents out, however we should aim to get clarity on the github issues so that the editors can go away and do the work 13:24:08 renato: Another thing is the horizontal reviews. When do they need to be done. 13:24:37 phila: The January release will not be complete but should be mature enough for the horizontal review 13:24:48 q- 13:24:50 renato: Any other comments on the agenda for next week? 13:25:00 No comments... 13:25:34 renato: Look at the github issues with a view to closing them off, feel free to comment and contribute 13:26:14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/87755/F2F-2-prefs/results 13:26:15 phila: Webex for Monday will be different! Please check the wiki. We will start at 10am GMT. 13:27:11 renato: Actual face to face NY was unsuccessful :( 13:28:37 +1 13:28:43 renato: Maybe we should have it in Vienna as we have 3 active members in Vienna 13:28:43 I'm easy either way 13:28:46 +1 13:29:54 Renato to speak with Viktor.... Need to think of dates in March... 13:30:02 Sabrina to revert with dates to Renato 13:30:07 AOB? 13:30:11 Nope.... 13:30:16 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:30:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-poe-minutes.html phila 13:30:18 Thanks for a productive meeting 13:32:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:32:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-poe-minutes.html phila 13:32:36 chair: Renato 13:32:40 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:32:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-poe-minutes.html phila 15:49:28 Zakim has left #poe