--- Day changed 2016-11-16 Wed Nov 16 2016-11-16T10:56:13Z -!- Arnaud changed the topic of #shapes to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.11.16 2016-11-16T12:44:10Z -!- simonstey [~simonstey@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T12:56:12Z trackbot, start meeting 2016-11-16T12:56:12Z * trackbot is preparing a teleconference. 2016-11-16T12:56:12Z -!- RRSAgent [rrsagent@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T12:56:12Z logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/16-shapes-irc 2016-11-16T12:56:14Z RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes 2016-11-16T12:56:14Z I have made the request, trackbot 2016-11-16T12:56:14Z -!- Zakim [zakim@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T12:56:16Z Zakim, this will be SHAPES 2016-11-16T12:56:16Z ok, trackbot 2016-11-16T12:56:17Z Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference 2016-11-16T12:56:17Z Date: 16 November 2016 2016-11-16T12:57:38Z -!- hknublau [~hknublau@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:02:03Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:02:20Z agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.11.16 2016-11-16T13:02:24Z chair: Arnaud 2016-11-16T13:02:44Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:09:07Z -!- Dimitris [~jim@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:09:49Z -!- TallTed [~Thud@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:13:41Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:13:48Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:14:13Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:14:54Z scribenick: hknublau 2016-11-16T13:18:40Z We should try to look at some of the big tickets in this meeting. 2016-11-16T13:18:43Z PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 9 Nov 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/11/09-shapes-minutes.html 2016-11-16T13:19:23Z +1 2016-11-16T13:19:28Z RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 9 Nov 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/11/09-shapes-minutes.html 2016-11-16T13:19:46Z Arnaud: Next week regular meeting again. 2016-11-16T13:20:18Z ... depending on progress today, we should schedule more longer meetings in the coming weeks 2016-11-16T13:20:28Z topic: Review of meeting goals 2016-11-16T13:21:16Z Arnaud: CR status is the big goal; test suite; user-friendly syntax 2016-11-16T13:23:00Z topic: Getting to CR 2016-11-16T13:23:21Z Arnaud: Next publication could be CR, although this sounds bold 2016-11-16T13:23:34Z ... Key is to claim we have closed all our issues and had wide review. 2016-11-16T13:24:08Z ... there should not be a wide delta between previous draft; for this reason we want to republish another draft before CR 2016-11-16T13:25:01Z ... Test suite is required, because CR is also a call for implementations 2016-11-16T13:25:28Z ... We don't need a complete test suite but we do need framework, so that spec can point for test suite 2016-11-16T13:25:32Z -!- marqh [~marky@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:25:47Z ... and tests can evolve over time. 2016-11-16T13:26:16Z q+ 2016-11-16T13:26:16Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:26:21Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T13:26:21Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:27:38Z ... On public comments: since there is no more Last Call it is less clear when we are required to follow a formal response process 2016-11-16T13:27:58Z ... however, we should do our best to respond 2016-11-16T13:28:15Z https://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/#doc-reviews 2016-11-16T13:28:46Z ... also to document that we do have feedback, although technically there is no requirement to respond to all of them. 2016-11-16T13:28:56Z * simonstey only SHOULDs no MUSTs 2016-11-16T13:29:02Z -!- AndyS [~afs@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:30:05Z ... of course we don't need to agree on the comments 2016-11-16T13:31:00Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:31:19Z -!- kcoyle [~kcoyle@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T13:35:28Z q+ 2016-11-16T13:35:28Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:36:29Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T13:36:29Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:36:57Z present+ 2016-11-16T13:37:42Z q+ 2016-11-16T13:37:42Z * Zakim sees simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:37:51Z hknublau: how about if we have a way for the WG to check diffs 2016-11-16T13:37:53Z ack simonstey 2016-11-16T13:37:53Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:38:08Z q+ to propose a little mechanism behind hknublau's proposal 2016-11-16T13:38:08Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:38:11Z simonstey: I agree, I think we need such a mechanism. 2016-11-16T13:38:14Z I also agree 2016-11-16T13:38:59Z ack ericP 2016-11-16T13:38:59Z ericP, you wanted to propose a little mechanism behind hknublau's proposal 2016-11-16T13:39:01Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:39:10Z ... so that we close public email threads that ask for WG support. 2016-11-16T13:39:45Z ericP: The editors could also provide pointers to the most interesting changes. 2016-11-16T13:39:48Z +q 2016-11-16T13:39:48Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:39:59Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T13:39:59Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:40:50Z hknublau: everyone should review the changes on a weekly basis 2016-11-16T13:41:39Z Arnaud: reasonable to put this on the agenda each week. 2016-11-16T13:41:51Z ... any disagreements? 2016-11-16T13:43:33Z ... I want to encourage Karen to raise formal issues on the comments 2016-11-16T13:44:01Z kcoyle: I can do that. 2016-11-16T13:44:41Z I can 2016-11-16T13:45:52Z ericP: Hint: Ask commenters to prioritize issues 2016-11-16T13:46:31Z Arnaud: We are running out of runway, technically until June 1st 2017 2016-11-16T13:47:10Z ... there is minimum amount of time that we need to grant reviewers and implementers 2016-11-16T13:47:31Z ... we need to be "done" by end of Feb/March. 2016-11-16T13:47:48Z ... and holiday season doesn't help. 2016-11-16T13:48:28Z ... will be very hard to get an extension. If we were in CR and have implementers, we could reasonably ask for extension. 2016-11-16T13:48:59Z TOPIC: Test Suite 2016-11-16T13:49:10Z * simonstey https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Nov/att-0039/00-part 2016-11-16T13:49:49Z Arnaud: We have the framework from last year, we have ShEx tests that could be converted, and Holger's test suite 2016-11-16T13:50:15Z ericP: Status on ShEx tests 2016-11-16T13:50:36Z ... Updated tests for changes to sh:datatype 2016-11-16T13:51:08Z ... Big issue, converting from ShEx to SHACL. Depends on partition topic. 2016-11-16T13:51:27Z ... and we requested changes to stem. 2016-11-16T13:52:27Z ... We don't have target-based tests, use parameters directly. 2016-11-16T13:53:50Z q+ 2016-11-16T13:53:50Z * Zakim sees simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:56:18Z hknublau: we do have a test format, which is integrated with TopBraid, but let's just continue with the format that we defined next year. 2016-11-16T13:56:34Z ack simonstey 2016-11-16T13:56:34Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:56:40Z Arnaud: Initially "anyone" can add tests and later they will be stabilized and approved. 2016-11-16T13:56:42Z q+ to say that in SPARQL, folks would upload contradictory tests and the WG would mark one (hopefully) "approved" 2016-11-16T13:56:42Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:56:45Z https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Nov/0039.html 2016-11-16T13:58:56Z ack ericP 2016-11-16T13:58:56Z ericP, you wanted to say that in SPARQL, folks would upload contradictory tests and the WG would mark one (hopefully) "approved" 2016-11-16T13:58:58Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T13:59:23Z ericP: In SPARQL WG, people submitted contradicting tests to clarify semantics. 2016-11-16T13:59:44Z * simonstey https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/tree/gh-pages/data-shapes-test-suite 2016-11-16T14:00:32Z +1 2016-11-16T14:00:40Z +1 2016-11-16T14:00:48Z hknublau: Old tests should be discarded, but we keep the format 2016-11-16T14:01:24Z Arnaud: Which format to use? 2016-11-16T14:01:59Z ericP: We have manifest files, Holger's format doesn't use/need them. 2016-11-16T14:02:22Z ... manifest provides metadata such as what kind of test we have 2016-11-16T14:02:30Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:02:30Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:02:49Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T14:02:50Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:04:01Z ... manifest may be compatible with what we have in ShEx 2016-11-16T14:04:35Z hknublau: TQ's format can also represent metadata, but I don't want to start controversies on the details of the format. 2016-11-16T14:05:37Z Arnaud: Eric should stabilize the test format and then have Eric and Holger to contribute their (converted) tests. 2016-11-16T14:05:49Z ACTION: ericP to review test suite and compare with shex tesst suite 2016-11-16T14:05:49Z * trackbot is creating a new ACTION. 2016-11-16T14:05:49Z * RRSAgent records action 1 2016-11-16T14:05:50Z Created ACTION-47 - Review test suite and compare with shex tesst suite [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2016-11-23]. 2016-11-16T14:06:41Z scribenick: kcoyle 2016-11-16T14:07:17Z Arnaud: TOPIC: User-friendly syntax 2016-11-16T14:07:48Z ... background: would possibly use ShEx as basis for compact user-friendly syntax 2016-11-16T14:08:10Z ... partitions key to alignment of shex and shacl 2016-11-16T14:09:41Z ericP: Yes, alignment is possible & a good idea 2016-11-16T14:10:16Z ... looking at where "or" allowed in shacl 2016-11-16T14:10:34Z ... Jose is working on translate from shex to shacl; this means there is a test suite for the two 2016-11-16T14:10:56Z -> https://shexspec.github.io/spec/ shex spec 2016-11-16T14:11:00Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:11:00Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:11:19Z ... would like to publish shex spec as FPWD, get it out there for review 2016-11-16T14:11:54Z Arnaud: Technically there is a version as a starting point, but was not an editor's draft 2016-11-16T14:12:15Z ... so should be offered to group to review 2016-11-16T14:12:22Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T14:12:22Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:13:10Z hknublau: eric described features needed for shacl to create compatibility; but shex needs to cover all aspects of shacl core 2016-11-16T14:13:38Z Arnaud: may not have a mandate to cover all aspects 2016-11-16T14:14:32Z ericP: shex says that targets are separate from shex; 2016-11-16T14:15:01Z ... not clear if target* of shacl is needed 2016-11-16T14:15:50Z ... thre is a feature in shex that allows you to have unique keys, e.g. for literal with only one language code 2016-11-16T14:16:29Z ... suggest publish was exists, then add to make compatible 2016-11-16T14:18:02Z -!- hknublau [~hknublau@team.cloak] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 2016-11-16T14:18:15Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:18:15Z * Zakim sees Dimitris on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:18:15Z Arnaud: proposal is to make shex a working draft 2016-11-16T14:18:29Z PROPOSED: accept ShEx as an Editor's draft 2016-11-16T14:18:33Z ack Dimitris 2016-11-16T14:18:33Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:19:10Z Dimitris: making it a draft is a good idea; but have to align them or it will be difficult for users, esp. conjunction/disjunction 2016-11-16T14:19:29Z -!- hknublau [~hknublau@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T14:19:45Z Arnaud: yes, probably need to add a section explaining the document 2016-11-16T14:20:08Z Dimitris: what is there must be consistent, even if some features are missing 2016-11-16T14:20:58Z ericP: and, or, unary are all the same; n-ary target constraints and repeated groups will need to be translated well 2016-11-16T14:21:29Z Arnaud: alignment will either extend shacl or reduce compact syntax 2016-11-16T14:21:42Z +1 2016-11-16T14:21:42Z +1 2016-11-16T14:21:46Z +1 2016-11-16T14:21:47Z +1 2016-11-16T14:21:48Z +1 2016-11-16T14:22:45Z PROPOSED: accept ShEx as an Editor's draft 2016-11-16T14:23:29Z hknublau: this is compact syntax, not shex itself? 2016-11-16T14:23:36Z * simonstey https://shexspec.github.io/spec/ ? 2016-11-16T14:23:36Z -> https://shexspec.github.io/spec/ ShEx Spec 2016-11-16T14:24:54Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:24:54Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:25:09Z ack ericP 2016-11-16T14:25:09Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:25:12Z hknublau: publishing this draft would just be confusing 2016-11-16T14:25:27Z -1 2016-11-16T14:25:44Z ericP: shex exists and is being used in practice 2016-11-16T14:25:57Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:25:57Z * Zakim sees TallTed on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:26:08Z ... will we uncloak within this group, or separately? 2016-11-16T14:26:19Z ack TallTed 2016-11-16T14:26:19Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:26:54Z TallTed: this is a not uncommon kind of end-run that you (eric) have done before 2016-11-16T14:27:42Z ... inappropriate to make this w3c without going through process 2016-11-16T14:28:16Z ... should follow how json-ld was brought in; more work needs to be done 2016-11-16T14:28:30Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:28:30Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:29:30Z Arnaud: it's not like we haven't known about shex all along; maybe should have been brought sooner 2016-11-16T14:29:57Z q- 2016-11-16T14:29:57Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:29:57Z ... not sure what the 'right process' is - put it in realm of working group and give the group a chance to work on it 2016-11-16T14:30:54Z TallTed: this is not being presented as: this is for your consideration; my understanding is that shex does not fit 2016-11-16T14:31:11Z ... not in the charter 2016-11-16T14:31:41Z Arnaud: Holger says there is too much in this document, so what should be removed? 2016-11-16T14:32:21Z ... process is that spec needs to be brought into working group as an editor's draft 2016-11-16T14:33:13Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:33:13Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:33:59Z ericP: we tried to do this within the group 2016-11-16T14:34:33Z Arnaud: it would be a shame if shex were standardized outside of w3c; we were trying to accommodate both views 2016-11-16T14:35:22Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T14:35:22Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:35:24Z ... analogous to relax ng within xml - so now there are both, which isn't a bad thing, but w3c lost having the relax ng spec 2016-11-16T14:36:03Z hknublau: We decided 1.5 yrs ago that we are not using shex. all we need to do is describe a compact syntax 2016-11-16T14:36:35Z ericP: should shex go someplace else? 2016-11-16T14:36:37Z hknublau: yes 2016-11-16T14:37:13Z Arnaud: This is not making shex a competitor to shacl; 2016-11-16T14:37:54Z TallTed: in the context of this working group, there is nothing in here that references shacl - so how do they align? or are they separate? 2016-11-16T14:38:10Z -> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-abstract-syntax/shex-to-shacl ShEx-to-SHACL 2016-11-16T14:38:34Z Arnaud: that is the work that needs to take place; the abstract syntax (kcoyle and ericp) and the shex to shacl 2016-11-16T14:39:15Z ... we don't want the two to be in isolation from each other; now they are separate and shex is not visible as a wg product 2016-11-16T14:39:53Z ... this mainly format/style. note that we have worked to align them, e.g. with partition 2016-11-16T14:39:57Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:39:57Z * Zakim sees marqh on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:40:04Z ack marqh 2016-11-16T14:40:04Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:40:26Z marqh: question: is it a fair comment that shex is a partial implementation? 2016-11-16T14:40:58Z ericP: there is a large intersection; if we put in partition then shex is a nearly complete intersection with shacl 2016-11-16T14:41:12Z ... the big difference is the extension mechanism 2016-11-16T14:41:28Z ... also stems in value sets 2016-11-16T14:41:38Z * simonstey targets? 2016-11-16T14:42:18Z marqh: if wg is developing standard for shapes, is it reasonable to publish a relationship between shex and shacl, with shacl being the standard? 2016-11-16T14:42:33Z ericP: i... think.... so.... um 2016-11-16T14:42:44Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:42:44Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:42:46Z ... if the semantics are all captured in ... nope, unsure 2016-11-16T14:43:22Z Arnaud: my mental model is the other way around; you can implement shacl with shex 2016-11-16T14:43:42Z ... done through abstract syntax 2016-11-16T14:44:09Z ... what matters is if mapping works 2016-11-16T14:44:39Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T14:44:39Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:44:43Z ... if we don't want the layering, then it isn't clear what we're doing 2016-11-16T14:45:16Z hknublau: if shex is an implementation of shacl, (but not vice versa) - then all we need is the compact syntax 2016-11-16T14:46:26Z -!- pano [~pano@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T14:46:28Z TallTed: with that flavoring, if shex can be described as an alternative - as a different user-friendly language 2016-11-16T14:47:01Z ... but with shacl as the primary point, then that allays many of my fears 2016-11-16T14:47:09Z ... right now it looks too independent 2016-11-16T14:47:40Z q+ 2016-11-16T14:47:40Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:48:47Z ericP: shacl has evolved a lot; it began as a set of spin-like rules. It has become more of an 'how things work' document 2016-11-16T14:49:15Z ... shex has a lot to offer to shacl 2016-11-16T14:49:43Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T14:49:43Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T14:50:16Z kcoyle: i've not seen a side-by-side comparison of ShEx and SHACL. 2016-11-16T14:50:46Z * pano I'm sorry everyone, got stuck in meetings, and I need to leave gain in 40 mins for another meeting :( :( 2016-11-16T14:50:47Z ... without seeing that, i don't know whether ShEx is a human-friendly representation of SHACL 2016-11-16T14:51:03Z ... until we see that, it's hard to have a real opinion 2016-11-16T14:51:27Z ... could we be presented with something that shows how it interacts with SHACL 2016-11-16T14:51:44Z * AndyS trying to find time to progress the EXISTS CG ... intend to send something out but environment is not conducive to constructive discussion from all people. i.e. it needs to have a higher level of wording than a discussion. 2016-11-16T14:51:50Z Arnaud: with sympathy for eric - we can't ask him to do too much 2016-11-16T14:51:56Z -!- AndyS [~afs@team.cloak] has left #shapes [] 2016-11-16T14:52:33Z ... leave it at this for today and give people a chance to look at documentation 2016-11-16T14:52:56Z * simonstey http://www.slideshare.net/jelabra/shex-vs-shacl 2016-11-16T14:53:59Z ... eric to send message to group 2016-11-16T14:54:19Z ***break for 5*** 2016-11-16T15:01:55Z -!- Labra [~Labra2@team.cloak] has joined #shapes 2016-11-16T15:03:45Z back 2016-11-16T15:04:47Z scribenick: Dimitris 2016-11-16T15:05:26Z topic: disposal of raised issues 2016-11-16T15:07:24Z PROPOSED: open ISSUE-195 and ISSUE-196 2016-11-16T15:07:25Z hknublau: (about issue 195) is just to update rdfs:comments, maybe even drop them and keep only labels 2016-11-16T15:07:28Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:31Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:32Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:32Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:39Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:42Z +1 2016-11-16T15:07:56Z RESOLVED: open ISSUE-195 and ISSUE-196 2016-11-16T15:07:58Z +1 2016-11-16T15:08:03Z +1 2016-11-16T15:08:21Z issue-196 2016-11-16T15:08:21Z * trackbot is looking up issue-196. 2016-11-16T15:08:21Z issue-196 -- Should we delete filter shapes? -- open 2016-11-16T15:08:21Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/196 2016-11-16T15:08:37Z topic: ISSUE-196 2016-11-16T15:09:16Z Arnaud: there is a very concrete proposal from Holger to delete filter shapes, let's discuss this idea now 2016-11-16T15:09:49Z ... that would indeed simplify the model after all the discussions we had 2016-11-16T15:10:17Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:10:17Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:10:25Z ... does any other wants or uses filter shapes or have problems with dropping them? 2016-11-16T15:10:27Z +q to dropping filter shapes 2016-11-16T15:10:27Z * Zakim sees hknublau, ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:10:29Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T15:10:29Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:10:33Z +1 to dropping filter shapes 2016-11-16T15:10:34Z q- 2016-11-16T15:10:34Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:11:19Z hknublau: filters are just syntactic sugar for an OR / NOT, it is only a convenience feature but a very expensive one 2016-11-16T15:12:54Z +1 from me as well 2016-11-16T15:13:20Z arnaud: what is sh:disabled? 2016-11-16T15:14:29Z hknublau: it disables some shapes. It can be for reusing other shapes but disabling / deactivating some constraints 2016-11-16T15:15:32Z ... means that all focus nodes will be valid 2016-11-16T15:15:52Z +q 2016-11-16T15:15:52Z * Zakim sees simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:15:57Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:15:57Z * Zakim sees simonstey, kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:16:05Z ack simonstey 2016-11-16T15:16:05Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:17:17Z simonstey: currently, how would removing filter shapes change the language? 2016-11-16T15:18:27Z hknublau: currently you cannot deactivate a constraint 2016-11-16T15:19:01Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:19:01Z * Zakim sees kcoyle, TallTed on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:19:35Z simonstey: not sure if this should be part of SHACL or implementation specific 2016-11-16T15:19:44Z hknublau: not interoperable 2016-11-16T15:19:58Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T15:19:58Z * Zakim sees TallTed on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:20:35Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:20:35Z * Zakim sees TallTed, Dimitris on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:21:32Z kcoyle: spec does not specify processing to say how one can turn things off 2016-11-16T15:22:43Z hknublau: we define what validation is, I only propose a minor change 2016-11-16T15:23:35Z kcoyle: I am lacking the motivation for that feature 2016-11-16T15:23:37Z ack TallTed 2016-11-16T15:23:37Z * Zakim sees Dimitris on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:24:24Z +q to say that you can achieve this via a custom target 2016-11-16T15:24:24Z * Zakim sees Dimitris, hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:24:51Z tallted: does not see a motivation for eliminating filters 2016-11-16T15:26:44Z +q 2016-11-16T15:26:44Z * Zakim sees Dimitris, hknublau, simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:27:12Z ack Dimitris 2016-11-16T15:27:12Z * Zakim sees hknublau, simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:28:12Z Dimitris: filters are useful but we are out of time 2016-11-16T15:28:12Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T15:28:12Z hknublau, you wanted to say that you can achieve this via a custom target 2016-11-16T15:28:14Z * Zakim sees simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:28:30Z ... sh:ignore can be useful for testing shapes 2016-11-16T15:28:32Z q- 2016-11-16T15:28:32Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:29:18Z hknublau: custom targets are far more efficient for selecting specific nodes 2016-11-16T15:29:34Z straw poll? 2016-11-16T15:30:05Z STRAWPOLL: Delete filter shape and instead, add a boolean flag sh:disabled which (if true) means that a shape or constraint is ignored. 2016-11-16T15:30:15Z +1 2016-11-16T15:30:23Z +1 2016-11-16T15:30:39Z +1 for deleting filter shape, 0 for the boolean flag 2016-11-16T15:30:41Z ted, the graphic has been removed 2016-11-16T15:31:04Z +1 delete filter, 0 for flag 2016-11-16T15:31:37Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-196, deleting filter shape and instead, adding a boolean flag sh:disabled which (if true) means that a shape or constraint is ignored (i.e., any node is considered conforming/valid). 2016-11-16T15:31:47Z simonstey: we need to define how sh:ignored is defined in referenced shapes (sh:shape, sh:or, ...) 2016-11-16T15:32:01Z +1 2016-11-16T15:32:04Z +0.7 2016-11-16T15:32:07Z +1 2016-11-16T15:32:10Z +1 2016-11-16T15:32:12Z * pano Sorry guys, I need to leave again. 2016-11-16T15:32:28Z +.5 2016-11-16T15:32:30Z +0.5 2016-11-16T15:32:50Z 0 2016-11-16T15:32:57Z +1 filter, 0 for flag 2016-11-16T15:33:29Z my 0 was for the flag..., +1 for deleting filterShape 2016-11-16T15:33:49Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-196, deleting filter shape and instead, adding a boolean flag sh:disabled which (if true) means that a shape or constraint is ignored (i.e., any node is considered conforming/valid). 2016-11-16T15:34:12Z issue-185 2016-11-16T15:34:12Z * trackbot is looking up issue-185. 2016-11-16T15:34:12Z issue-185 -- Processing order for filters and constraints -- open 2016-11-16T15:34:12Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/185 2016-11-16T15:34:16Z issue-192 2016-11-16T15:34:16Z * trackbot is looking up issue-192. 2016-11-16T15:34:16Z issue-192 -- Should filter shapes be of type sh:Shape? if not, then what? -- open 2016-11-16T15:34:16Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/192 2016-11-16T15:34:30Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-185 and ISSUE-192 as now irrelevant 2016-11-16T15:34:38Z +1 2016-11-16T15:34:39Z +1 2016-11-16T15:34:48Z +1 2016-11-16T15:34:53Z +1 2016-11-16T15:35:06Z +1 2016-11-16T15:35:37Z +1 2016-11-16T15:35:39Z +1 2016-11-16T15:35:43Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-185 and ISSUE-192 as now irrelevant 2016-11-16T15:35:58Z issue-92 2016-11-16T15:35:58Z * trackbot is looking up issue-92. 2016-11-16T15:35:58Z issue-92 -- Should repeated properties be interpreted as additive or conjunctive? -- open 2016-11-16T15:35:58Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/92 2016-11-16T15:36:15Z topic: issue-92 2016-11-16T15:36:23Z Makes little sense to discuss now, and the proposal is incomplete 2016-11-16T15:36:57Z arnaud: based on the previous discussion let's see what's the status here 2016-11-16T15:37:15Z ... Arthur started this and Eric continue working on this 2016-11-16T15:37:41Z eric: I am working on the partition proposal, no updates yet 2016-11-16T15:37:54Z s/eric/ericP/ 2016-11-16T15:38:48Z ... will nee to see about different ORs in the spec 2016-11-16T15:39:22Z topic: issue-180 2016-11-16T15:39:38Z issue-180 2016-11-16T15:39:38Z * trackbot is looking up issue-180. 2016-11-16T15:39:38Z issue-180 -- Should IRI paths always be interpreted as predicates? -- open 2016-11-16T15:39:38Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/180 2016-11-16T15:40:08Z hknublau: That's a detail about the path syntax 2016-11-16T15:41:22Z ... there were various complications in the design when a node is an IRI, it could be property or e.g. an inverse path etc 2016-11-16T15:42:05Z ... the suggestion is that all nested paths must be blank nodes otherwise it will be treated as a property 2016-11-16T15:42:10Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:42:10Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:42:15Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T15:42:15Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:42:31Z -!- RRSAgent [rrsagent@team.cloak] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 2016-11-16T15:42:38Z kcoyle: I'd like to hear from ShEx if this affects them 2016-11-16T15:42:49Z ericP: it doesn't 2016-11-16T15:43:12Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-180, accepting Holger's proposed changes (in the issue description) 2016-11-16T15:43:12Z Proposal is basically all IRI paths are counted as PredicatePaths, i.e. all complex paths such as inverse paths must be blank nodes. 2016-11-16T15:43:18Z +1 2016-11-16T15:43:35Z +1 2016-11-16T15:43:37Z 0 2016-11-16T15:43:40Z 0 2016-11-16T15:43:44Z +1 2016-11-16T15:43:48Z +0 2016-11-16T15:44:12Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-180, accepting Holger's proposed changes (in the issue description) 2016-11-16T15:45:14Z Proposal for ISSUE-186 is in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Oct/0040.html 2016-11-16T15:45:28Z topic: issue-186 2016-11-16T15:45:35Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:45:35Z * Zakim sees Dimitris on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:45:45Z ack Dimitris 2016-11-16T15:45:45Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:46:52Z * I am leaving for 20 mins 2016-11-16T15:47:18Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:47:18Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:47:23Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T15:47:23Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:48:11Z kcoyle: I agree to close them (98% sure these are all) 2016-11-16T15:48:13Z +1 2016-11-16T15:48:21Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-186, adding new properties as proposed by Holger in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Oct/0040.html 2016-11-16T15:48:28Z +1 2016-11-16T15:48:28Z +1 2016-11-16T15:48:40Z +1 (and if someone finds other duplicates, let's treat them in the same way) 2016-11-16T15:48:50Z +1 2016-11-16T15:50:25Z 0 2016-11-16T15:50:30Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-186, adding new properties as proposed by Holger in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Oct/0040.html 2016-11-16T15:50:56Z issue-189 2016-11-16T15:50:56Z * trackbot is looking up issue-189. 2016-11-16T15:50:56Z issue-189 -- Clarify validation report trigger in section 3 -- open 2016-11-16T15:50:56Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/189 2016-11-16T15:50:56Z topic:issue-189 2016-11-16T15:51:40Z Voting really early, +1 2016-11-16T15:52:11Z +1 with sh:conforms 2016-11-16T15:52:23Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:52:23Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:52:44Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T15:52:44Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:56:29Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-189, adopting Dimitris and Karen's proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Nov/0051.html 2016-11-16T15:56:37Z +1 2016-11-16T15:56:37Z +1 2016-11-16T15:56:40Z +1 2016-11-16T15:56:42Z +1 2016-11-16T15:56:44Z +1 2016-11-16T15:56:52Z +1 2016-11-16T15:57:04Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-189, adopting Dimitris and Karen's proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Nov/0051.html 2016-11-16T15:57:45Z topic: issue-188 2016-11-16T15:57:53Z https://github.com/kcoyle/data-shapes/commit/6287d43608e92726a2bf308c8903768f429a8a25#diff-dd3652a97f249d2a18a436bd4fac69c5 2016-11-16T15:58:04Z issue-188 2016-11-16T15:58:04Z * trackbot is looking up issue-188. 2016-11-16T15:58:04Z issue-188 -- "Validation" needs to be defined -- open 2016-11-16T15:58:04Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/188 2016-11-16T15:58:33Z kcoyle: validations was used for the process and the result. 2016-11-16T15:59:07Z https://github.com/kcoyle/data-shapes/commit/bb301ef1b942a0773c45f7cb4c30b7ff9726db3a 2016-11-16T15:59:13Z ... two solutions: use successfully validates or conforms 2016-11-16T15:59:29Z q+ 2016-11-16T15:59:29Z * Zakim sees simonstey on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T15:59:29Z +1 to conforms 2016-11-16T15:59:37Z * Dimitris have to leave apologies can someone scribe? 2016-11-16T15:59:52Z +1 conforms 2016-11-16T15:59:53Z +1 to conforms as well 2016-11-16T16:00:31Z have to leave apologies can someone scribe? 2016-11-16T16:01:07Z scribe: simonstey 2016-11-16T16:01:12Z ack simonstey 2016-11-16T16:01:12Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:02:08Z scribenick: kcoyle 2016-11-16T16:02:19Z simonstey: also +1 to conforms 2016-11-16T16:02:23Z simonstey: valid and conforms are two different things 2016-11-16T16:02:46Z * simonstey damn ;) 2016-11-16T16:03:07Z Arnaud: people seem to be happy with conform 2016-11-16T16:04:19Z PROPOSED: replace instances of "validates" meaning "is true" with a version of the verb "conforms" 2016-11-16T16:04:43Z +1 2016-11-16T16:04:59Z Arnaud: we can iterate over this if necessary 2016-11-16T16:05:11Z +1 2016-11-16T16:05:15Z TallTed: shouldn't we change validation report to conformance report? 2016-11-16T16:05:29Z ... might be an overkill though 2016-11-16T16:05:59Z kcoyle: it would require a lot of changes to the spec 2016-11-16T16:07:16Z Arnaud: maybe we should mention somewhere that if something is found to be valid it means it is conformant (or alike) 2016-11-16T16:08:19Z +1 2016-11-16T16:08:24Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-188, replace instances of "validates" meaning "is true" with a version of the verb "conforms" 2016-11-16T16:08:29Z +1 2016-11-16T16:08:32Z +1 2016-11-16T16:08:32Z +1 2016-11-16T16:08:35Z +1 2016-11-16T16:08:45Z kcoyle: when I raised that issue I wanted to address the fact that validation was used differently throughout the spec 2016-11-16T16:08:47Z +1 2016-11-16T16:09:02Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-188, replace instances of "validates" meaning "is true" with a version of the verb "conforms" 2016-11-16T16:09:52Z hknublau: kcoyle, you started a branch working on that.. is it ready to be merged to master? 2016-11-16T16:10:16Z kcoyle: not quite ready yet 2016-11-16T16:11:12Z ... it's "conforms to" 2016-11-16T16:11:42Z topic: prebinding 2016-11-16T16:12:04Z q+ 2016-11-16T16:12:04Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:12:19Z issue-68 2016-11-16T16:12:19Z * trackbot is looking up issue-68. 2016-11-16T16:12:19Z issue-68 -- pre-binding not defined in SHACL spec -- open 2016-11-16T16:12:19Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/68 2016-11-16T16:12:25Z Arnaud: meanwhile there was an email from peter discussing prebinding; mentioning we could get rid of it alltogether 2016-11-16T16:12:51Z hknublau: it wasn't about getting rid of prebinding 2016-11-16T16:14:37Z ... sparql queries would have to return a value that is then compared 2016-11-16T16:15:22Z ... andy is working on a proposal 2016-11-16T16:16:23Z Arnaud: could you elaborate on why you and Dimitris think peters proposal isn't optimal? 2016-11-16T16:17:09Z * simonstey could you summarize that briefly holger? 2016-11-16T16:19:19Z hknublau: [explains issues]; holger will follow up 2016-11-16T16:20:05Z q+ 2016-11-16T16:20:05Z * Zakim sees hknublau, kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:20:07Z Arnaud: any other open issues we want to discuss? 2016-11-16T16:20:14Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T16:20:14Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:20:45Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T16:20:45Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:21:06Z hknublau: maybe we want to consider closing issue-176 2016-11-16T16:21:07Z issue-176 2016-11-16T16:21:07Z * trackbot is looking up issue-176. 2016-11-16T16:21:07Z issue-176 -- Should SHACL include a (simple) rules feature -- open 2016-11-16T16:21:07Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/176 2016-11-16T16:21:26Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-176 due to lack of time 2016-11-16T16:21:36Z ... and leave it up for future groups to follow up on that 2016-11-16T16:21:41Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-176 due to lack of time and out of scope 2016-11-16T16:21:57Z -0 2016-11-16T16:21:57Z 0 2016-11-16T16:22:14Z +1 2016-11-16T16:22:53Z +1 2016-11-16T16:22:54Z +0 postponed to SHACL 1.1 a/k/a 2.0 or whatever... 2016-11-16T16:23:10Z * simonstey SHACL² 2016-11-16T16:23:40Z or perhaps "can be handled via extension mechanism..." 2016-11-16T16:23:45Z +1 2016-11-16T16:23:49Z +q 2016-11-16T16:23:49Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:23:54Z Arnaud: one thing we can do is making a wiki page listing all the features that didn't make it in to the spec 2016-11-16T16:24:02Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T16:24:02Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:24:25Z ... but may be included in the future 2016-11-16T16:25:31Z hknublau: shouldn't we "reserve" certain keywords? e.g., sh.rule (other languages do that) 2016-11-16T16:25:40Z * kcoyle what eric said 2016-11-16T16:25:51Z ericP: the one who owns the ns document also owns those properties 2016-11-16T16:26:49Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-176 due to lack of time and out of scope 2016-11-16T16:26:53Z Arnaud: I would be more comfortable if we would already know that we are going to work on something like SHACL 2.0 2016-11-16T16:27:11Z topic: issue-187 2016-11-16T16:27:15Z issue-187 2016-11-16T16:27:15Z * trackbot is looking up issue-187. 2016-11-16T16:27:15Z issue-187 -- sh:severity and sh:message are not defined as shapes graph properties -- open 2016-11-16T16:27:15Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/187 2016-11-16T16:28:00Z kcoyle: it's about not being able to set severity/message in the shapes graph 2016-11-16T16:28:41Z hknublau: I'm not really sure.. maybe this issue was already resolved earlier 2016-11-16T16:29:11Z ... it was resolved after issue-178 2016-11-16T16:29:14Z PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-187, as resolved as part of ISSUE-178 2016-11-16T16:29:20Z issue-178 2016-11-16T16:29:20Z * trackbot is looking up issue-178. 2016-11-16T16:29:20Z issue-178 -- Should sh:message be permitted at constraints, too? -- closed 2016-11-16T16:29:20Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/178 2016-11-16T16:29:26Z +1 2016-11-16T16:29:30Z +1 2016-11-16T16:29:34Z +1 2016-11-16T16:29:37Z +1 2016-11-16T16:29:40Z +1 2016-11-16T16:29:52Z RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-187, as resolved as part of ISSUE-178 2016-11-16T16:30:26Z Arnaud: anything else we can tackle now? 2016-11-16T16:30:35Z topic: issue-194 2016-11-16T16:30:38Z issue-194 2016-11-16T16:30:38Z * trackbot is looking up issue-194. 2016-11-16T16:30:38Z issue-194 -- stems in value sets -- open 2016-11-16T16:30:38Z http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/194 2016-11-16T16:30:54Z ericP: motivation was that value sets are tedious to enumerate 2016-11-16T16:32:02Z ... value sets have either values, a stem, or an exclusion of stems (?) 2016-11-16T16:32:31Z ... at some time we added sh:stem to SHACL 2016-11-16T16:32:58Z +q 2016-11-16T16:32:58Z * Zakim sees hknublau on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:33:01Z ... but sh:stem doesn't reflect the intended meaning of stems 2016-11-16T16:33:11Z ... as used in shex (?) 2016-11-16T16:33:12Z q+ 2016-11-16T16:33:12Z * Zakim sees hknublau, kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:33:14Z ack hknublau 2016-11-16T16:33:14Z * Zakim sees kcoyle on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:33:41Z hknublau: afaik, it's syntactic sugar and doesn't add additional expressivity 2016-11-16T16:34:20Z ... my proposal would be to put that into the mapping of the compact syntax 2016-11-16T16:34:23Z q+ to propose removing the Stem Parameter 2016-11-16T16:34:23Z * Zakim sees kcoyle, ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:34:31Z ack kcoyle 2016-11-16T16:34:31Z * Zakim sees ericP on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:34:49Z kcoyle: I'm doing my usual call for examples 2016-11-16T16:34:56Z ericP: 2016-11-16T16:35:02Z * simonstey whoops 2016-11-16T16:35:05Z ack ericP 2016-11-16T16:35:05Z ericP, you wanted to propose removing the Stem Parameter 2016-11-16T16:35:06Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2016-11-16T16:35:35Z https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-abstract-syntax/shex-to-shacl#h-object-values 2016-11-16T16:36:24Z kcoyle: what makes those stems? 2016-11-16T16:37:09Z ericP: [explaining the examples] 2016-11-16T16:37:45Z +1 to deleting sh:stem 2016-11-16T16:38:38Z kcoyle: what would it look like as a value set value? 2016-11-16T16:40:37Z Arnaud: two proposals on the table 2016-11-16T16:40:59Z ... removing sh:stem and adding it to value sets 2016-11-16T16:41:07Z ... just removing sh:stem 2016-11-16T16:42:31Z ericP: right now you could not put a sh:stem inside a sh:in 2016-11-16T16:43:44Z Arnaud: I don't want us to get rid of stuff if there are use cases depending on it 2016-11-16T16:45:02Z https://www.w3.org/2016/04/07-shapes-minutes.html#resolution02 2016-11-16T16:45:55Z https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0311.html 2016-11-16T16:46:09Z [explaining that sh:or&sh:pattern would need to be used if sh:stem was to be removed] 2016-11-16T16:46:53Z ericP: my second proposal matches the one from the email but with "s/values/in/" 2016-11-16T16:47:48Z hknublau: I actually didn't understand the proposal back then 2016-11-16T16:48:05Z ... as I understand it now 2016-11-16T16:49:09Z ... and I agree that the spec doesn't match the resolution we made back then 2016-11-16T16:49:29Z * simonstey x-files 2016-11-16T16:50:06Z TallTed: there is more to the email thread -> more discussions 2016-11-16T16:51:53Z https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Mar/0315.html where I ask about "or" 2016-11-16T16:52:23Z Arnaud: we have to look into the change history of the spec 2016-11-16T16:52:56Z ... we may leave this issue for now 2016-11-16T16:53:26Z ... and holger tries to figure out what happend 2016-11-16T16:54:34Z hknublau: it's a complex feature, we may want to consider the resolution we made wrt. it 2016-11-16T16:54:46Z topic: aob 2016-11-16T16:55:22Z Arnaud: I think we should have a similar meeting soon 2016-11-16T16:55:29Z hknublau: why not next week? 2016-11-16T16:56:04Z ok by me 2016-11-16T16:56:23Z Arnaud: we could extend next meeting to two hours? 2016-11-16T16:58:24Z ... half an hour earlier? 2016-11-16T16:58:40Z hknublau: maybe we should make that a permanent thing 2016-11-16T16:59:01Z * simonstey I could do 5am CET too 2016-11-16T16:59:02Z PROPOSED: make calls 2h, starting at 8am Eastern 2016-11-16T16:59:29Z +1 2016-11-16T16:59:33Z +1 2016-11-16T16:59:48Z +0.5 2016-11-16T16:59:59Z +1 2016-11-16T17:00:01Z +1 2016-11-16T17:00:13Z RESOLVED: make calls 2h, starting at 8am Eastern 2016-11-16T17:01:11Z trackbot, end meeting 2016-11-16T17:01:11Z * trackbot is ending a teleconference. 2016-11-16T17:01:11Z Zakim, list attendees 2016-11-16T17:01:11Z As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, hknublau, simonstey, Dimitris, TallTed, AndyS, kcoyle, .5 2016-11-16T17:01:14Z -!- simonstey [~simonstey@team.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"] 2016-11-16T17:01:19Z RRSAgent, please draft minutes 2016-11-16T17:01:20Z RRSAgent, bye