14:51:14 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:51:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/03-mobile-a11y-irc 14:51:16 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:51:16 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:51:18 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:51:18 ok, trackbot 14:51:19 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:51:19 Date: 03 November 2016 14:55:45 Agenda+ Continuation of SC review - https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-Extension/tree/gh-pages/SCs , https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements M14: Non-interference of AT (Chris) https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md 14:55:46 Agenda+ M9: Pointer inputs with additional sensors (was: Advanced pointer input) 14:55:48 Agenda+ Next steps and schedule 14:57:59 patrick_h_lauke has joined #mobile-a11y 14:58:50 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 14:59:23 chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:26 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:44 kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:53 present+ Detlev 15:02:20 present+ marcjohlic 15:02:22 present+ patrick_h_lauke 15:02:51 Present+ Kim 15:03:02 present+ chriscm 15:03:13 present+ Kathy 15:03:36 scribe? 15:03:45 Kathy: status – all success criteria has to be submitted by December 1 to the working group 15:04:24 Kathy: good news is just a few SC left, concentrating on the ones that are mobile for now 15:04:31 Kathy: want to make sure they are all finalized and go out 15:04:59 scribe?? 15:05:30 Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y 15:05:43 Kathy: task force will take month of December off – appreciate hard work and that's always a busy time. Will reconvene again in January. In January the work will consist of writing techniques for existing success criteria and also working on the questions and comments from the working group on the success criteria that we submitted. In February we're going to have the first working draft of... 15:05:45 ...2.1 so a lot of work happening in January 15:05:50 present + Jatin 15:05:59 Kathy: making sure everyone's aware of the schedule for the next few months 15:06:25 Marc: M-16? 15:06:33 Kathy: yes M-16 15:06:57 M14: https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md 15:07:25 DavidMacDonald has joined #mobile-a11y 15:07:26 Kathy: today M14 and M9 if we have time 15:08:03 Kathy: after we finish those look at as a whole. If you do see something that's missing that you would like in from a mobile perspective you can still propose 15:08:28 Kathy: feel free to suggest we want to make sure everybody's voice is heard 15:08:40 TOPIC: M14 15:08:42 https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/d9ecc74431ee5bef084b51256468838b1d9a773a/SCs/m14.md 15:10:57 Non-interference of AT: Content does not interfere with default functionality of platform level assistive technology 15:11:21 Kathy: this is what was in the last draft 15:12:07 Kathy: I think the description that you have might be better, but SC is not short 15:12:43 Chris: what's missing from the original SC is circumvent text 15:12:52 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism to override the interference is available, unless essential for use of the content. 15:12:52 Kathy: we can add an exception 15:13:24 Chris: replace first sentence of what I have with the original and then leave the second sentence 15:13:31 David: trying to make it a bit shorter 15:13:52 +1 15:15:05 Chris: don't see a need to specify – can do that in failures 15:15:05 q+ 15:15:18 q+ 15:15:45 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless the interference is essential for use of the content. 15:15:58 Kathy: in the past had said this is primarily for native applications – there are examples today in websites – Apple resizing font scenario 15:16:22 Chris: anything that is just available in native API's – it's just a matter of time before those APIs become available within web apps or websites 15:16:48 Detlev: I wasn't aware of any examples, and was guessing it would relate more to native applications at least at the moment 15:17:44 Chris: the quintessential example is trait where entire view passes through gestures to the view – UI accessibility– trait that ignores pass-through completely breaks everything – I see it all the time in native and it's just a matter of time before we see it in web content 15:19:01 Detlev: currently can't see any situation in pure web terms where this would be the case – things like an app requesting explicitly that all touch is just passed through it circumventing anything else. Having said that for desktop-based screen readers fall into this – so do we want to write this more generally 15:19:14 s/Detlev/Patrick 15:19:20 Kathy: this one will be combined with cognitive as well so I think we can do that 15:20:44 Patrick: in that case I would suggest that in the description we don't jump straight about talking about touch. Currently a duplication first paragraph second sentence, next sentence both talk about touch. I'd remove Touch ATs rely on on the first sentence and keep it as a common scenario. So it's not touch specific and also remove duplication 15:20:49 "The intent of this success criterion is to prevent content from interfering with platform assistive technology." 15:21:09 Patrick: AT misbehaves is a little bit vague, changing first sentence 15:21:12 removing "Touch ATs rely..." 15:21:58 Kathy: do we want to say platform assistive technology and settings? 15:22:08 Kathy: things in the platform mobile settings are not really assistive technology 15:22:11 q- 15:22:29 +1 to what Detlev says....i think the font size etc is a different topic 15:23:11 font size is already covered, in my view, in WCAG 2.0 text size SC 15:23:15 Kathy: I agree with Patrick, we are talking about preventing content from interfering with platform, but what we are finding on mobile is there are a lot more settings to allow users to customize their experience so they have an experience that works for them which gets into personalization, which is where cognitive has been going also low vision 15:23:47 Kathy: if we look at settings I don't see changing contrast to AT. So do we want to say platform AT and settings so we are addressing more than just the assistive technology 15:24:50 Detlev: my understanding was the issue here is a certain set of gestures – more specifically screenreader gestures or other screenreader things on the desktop would not work in certain modes, e.g. pass-through of gestures straight to the application. I think that's qualitatively different than changing settings. They might also have an effect it it's difficult to lump them together in a... 15:24:52 ...success criteria. Matching techniques to that – might confuse people, wide set of different issues lumped together 15:25:01 Kathy: we have that separate – touch with assistive technology 15:25:48 Kathy: noninterference of AT – we already have touch 15:26:31 Detlev: different, don't rely because it may be intercepted versus don't stop the AT you can intercept touch gestures directly 15:27:08 Detlev: font size is already covered. if cognitive and low vision are already working on some aspects not sure we should cram them all in here 15:27:13 s/Detlev/Patrick 15:27:15 That was Patrick speaking 15:28:11 David: we have quite a bit of overlap – I think it's okay to go to the working group with this. Better to have more granularity going into the working group so they can pick and choose. I'm having trouble seeing how – we already have accessibility support. We already have non interference. But this point we don't have a lot of time 15:28:20 propose: add a note in the description for the working group to explain that our other "Touch with AT" talks about "don't rely on gestures etc being possible since AT may intercept it", whereas this is "don't try and suppress AT so that you can intercept touch directly" 15:28:38 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless the interference is essential for use of the content. 15:30:04 Patrick: add a note to the description – put in above – that specifies why this is different 15:30:13 Kathy: I agree – this is going to come up over and over again 15:30:59 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:31:01 Chris: making changes in github 15:32:31 Detlev: if we want to cover more than just touch at least on the Windows side of the equation how about changes the behavior of screen readers for instance to suppress things like reading keys, quick jump navigation sue headings etc. Have that as example, somewhere, probably description 15:32:40 s/Detlev/Patrick 15:33:09 Patrick: I can come up with wording 15:33:10 i will send some proposed example text to list 15:33:49 Kathy: anybody else have changes, concerns with the overall content 15:34:11 https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/m14/SCs/m14.md 15:35:56 Detlev: wording is dense 15:37:05 chris: just made a change to the opening part of the description, as discussed earlier in call. hope that looks ok? https://github.com/chriscm2006/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/m14/SCs/m14.md 15:37:16 (strangely, was able to edit and commit) 15:37:39 Detlev: example, may be drawing something on the screen without noticing. You are talking about mechanism to override interference – that's not getting into the situation in the first place. The case that Patrick brought in with role application might be different again. It sounds very abstract at the moment. 15:38:01 David: what is the dumb thing authors are doing that we want to tell them to stop doing 15:38:45 Chris: overwriting the default font so that an iOS it doesn't respond to request for font size changes. 15:39:16 Patrick: in a native and/or hybrid application forcing touches to go directly to the application bypassing any AT 15:39:54 Detlev: button put your signature in here, view that does not respond to AT, can't do anything but draw signature. 15:41:00 Chris: gestures overridden by drawing in text field. Most of your screen is taken up by signature field or drawing or whatever 15:41:19 Detlev: criterion may be met iif there are other areas you can get to 15:41:31 Chris: that gesture wouldn't work because it would be passed through to the view 15:41:56 Detlev: if you give advance warning in your button leading to that point – that would be awkward but with that fulfill success criteria 15:42:15 Detlev: could be hidden text 15:43:18 Patrick: could argue that it is essential because the user has to scribble signature, but to mitigate we are adding this particular text so it's an exception in terms of this SC if the author can make a reasoned case that it is essential but it would still be good to provide a description of what is going to happen to provide some kind of guidance to the user – maybe even warning the user... 15:43:19 ...before they go to that screen that that is going to happen 15:43:53 Chris: that was my intent behind the requirements for the exception – that a user shouldn't be able to end up on the screen where their gestures are going to be passed through to any element on that screen unless they are warned of it before hand 15:43:56 -Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless the interference is essential for use of the content and the user is warned beforehand. 15:44:36 Kathy: don't we have something similar in another success criteria 15:44:49 David: warned before hand – I'll find that, we might want to mimic that 15:45:11 Detlev: change of context thing 15:46:13 unless the user has been advised of the behavior before using the component. (Level A) 15:47:02 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless the interference is essential for use of the content and the user is warned before using the component 15:47:52 Patrick: it's wordy but I can read through it – last interference can be changed to this 15:48:18 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless it is essential for use of the content and the user is warned before using the component 15:51:45 Content does not interfere with the normal operation of the platform assistive technology, or a mechanism is available to override the interference, unless it is essential for use of the content and the user is warned before using the component. 15:51:54 Patrick: example of mechanism – in settings: never allow an app to override my AT 15:52:46 Patrick: opens it up to different possibilities of fulfilling that. If there was an iOS only app could make a case for saying mechanism available in the settings 15:54:02 Patrick: some SCs have the exception stuff separate, but generally agree 15:57:36 i need to shoot off a few minutes early, sorry. i will send off proposed extra text for role="application" stuff to somehow be integrated later tonight 15:58:08 patrick_h_lauke has left #mobile-a11y 15:59:08 Kathy: Chris to make changes – we'll continue working on this and get it finalized 15:59:34 Chris: request that people put comments on pull requests or not on pull request – just consistent 15:59:45 Kathy: I'll monitor list and put anything not on the pole request in the pull request 15:59:54 David: how about just filing an issue? 16:00:04 Chris: when I forked it I may not have added issues to my repository – I can update that 16:00:17 David: the issues list is probably the easiest way to update and talk about stuff 16:00:48 can't hear a thing now 16:01:26 recommended way to comment is in issues 16:02:40 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:03:21 Present: David 16:05:37 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 16:05:50 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:06:38 Present: Detlev, marcjohlic, patrick_h_lauke, Kim, chriscm, Kathy, Jatin, David 16:06:54 rrsagent, make minutes 16:06:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:12:08 Regrets+ Henny 16:12:17 rrsagent, make minutes 16:12:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:19:09 rrsagent, bye 16:19:09 I see no action items