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12:47:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:47:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:47:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:47:20 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
12:47:20 <trackbot> Date: 19 October 2016
12:51:19 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0025
12:51:31 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0025
12:51:35 <Steven> Chair: Steven
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13:00:18 <Steven> Present: Steven, Alain, Erik, Philip
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13:02:03 <Steven> Topic: header@bind (fixed)
13:02:03 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0016.html
13:02:16 <Steven> Steven: I added @bind to header
13:02:43 <Steven> Topic: <output/> + Note
13:02:43 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0018.html
13:03:24 <Steven> Steven: So I've cleaned it up, and shortened it
13:03:53 <Steven> ... but have a question about this note:
13:03:54 <Steven> When the media type is specified, implementations may handle the output
13:03:54 <Steven> content as presentation-only or as interactive content, and interactive
13:03:54 <Steven> content may be isolated from or capable of accessing the enclosing
13:03:54 <Steven> document that contains the output. Further implementation experience and
13:03:54 <Steven> user feedback is required. For example, if the output content includes
13:03:54 <Steven> XForms user interface elements, it may be desirable for them to access a
13:03:56 <Steven> default XForms model in the output content or from the enclosing document.
13:04:54 <Steven> Steven: Anybosy do this?
13:05:01 <Steven> ... what's it mean? How is it possible?
13:05:11 <Steven> s/bosy/body/
13:05:43 <Steven> Alain: I don't support this
13:06:26 <Steven> Steven: I'm in the mood to delete this note
13:06:51 <Steven> Erik: might be for video players or some such?
13:06:59 <Steven> ... I support removing this.
13:07:37 <Steven> Philip: I agree to get rid of it, on the grounds that only simple content is allowed.
13:08:17 <Steven> ... it might even be the source of an attack if it were allowed.
13:08:41 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to remove second note in Output section
13:08:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2077 - Remove second note in output section [on Steven Pemberton - due 2016-10-26].
13:09:26 <Steven> Topic: @value
13:09:26 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0010.html
13:10:32 <Steven> Topic: item@value
13:10:32 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0022.html
13:12:22 <Steven> Erik: We talked about this before.
13:12:34 <Steven> Steven: OK, I need to check old minutes
13:12:42 <Steven> Erik: In HTML it's the other way round.
13:12:45 <ebruchez> <option value="...">Label</option>
13:13:01 <Steven> ... that's not exactly relevant
13:13:37 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to search old minutes about <item label="...>value</item>
13:13:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2078 - Search old minutes about <item label="...>value</item> [on Steven Pemberton - due 2016-10-26].
13:14:36 <Steven> Topic: item values
13:14:36 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0024.html
13:15:46 <Steven> Erik: item@ref doesn't give you the value
13:16:20 <Steven> Steven: The text is not clear on this
13:17:32 <Steven> 8.3.2 The item Element[edit]
13:17:32 <Steven> This element specifies the storage value and label to represent an item in a list. It is found within elements select1 and select, or grouped in element choices.
13:17:51 <Steven> Data Binding Restriction: All lexical values must be valid according to the datatype bound to the selection control. If the Single Item Binding attributes are used and indicate a node in a model other than the bound node of the containing selection control, then an xforms-binding-error must occur.
13:18:27 <Steven> Erik: Interesting, I don't know what that is
13:20:22 <Steven> Steven: Previous version
13:20:22 <Steven> 8.3.3 The value Element[edit]
13:20:22 <Steven> This element provides a storage value to be used when an item is selected. The storage value is determined by one of three methods, in order of precedence:
13:20:22 <Steven>  the value of a node indicated by a Single Item Binding expression, if specified
13:20:22 <Steven>  the result of evaluating an expression appearing in attribute value, if specified
13:20:24 <Steven>  the inline content of the value element (when neither the Single Item Binding nor the value attribute are expressed).
13:20:24 <Steven> Common Attributes: Common, Single Item Binding (author-optional)
13:20:24 <Steven> Special Attributes:
13:20:25 <Steven>  value
13:20:25 <Steven>  Author-optional. An expression to be evaluated. The string result of the evaluation is used as the storage value of the item when it is selected. If a Single Item Binding is expressed, then this attribute has no effect. The evaluation context is the same as would be applied to the evaluation of the Single Item Binding. An empty string is used if the evaluation fails.
13:20:27 <Steven> Data Binding Restriction: All lexical values must be valid according to the datatype bound to the selection control. If the Single Item Binding attributes are used and indicate a node in a model other than the bound node of the containing selection control, then an xforms-binding-error must occur.
13:20:58 <Steven> Erik: I'm pretty sure we don't support a binding
13:21:13 <Steven> ... to set the value of an item
13:21:42 <Steven> Alain: No ref or bind in my implementation
13:22:25 <Steven> Steven: I propose removing @ref and @bind from item and item/value
13:22:59 <Steven> Erik: I think item/value@ref should eb allowed, it should be like <output/>
13:23:06 <Steven> s/ eb / be /
13:23:26 <Steven> Steven: But on <item/> not?
13:24:01 <Steven> Erik: It might be OK to allow the binding, but it shouldn't provide the value.
13:24:28 <ebruchez> <item ref="a/b" value="v" label="Label"/>
13:25:30 <Steven> Steven: In other places if you have a ref AND a value, the value gets ignored
13:25:46 <Steven> Erik: We do actually support it
13:25:47 <ebruchez> <xf:output ref="a/b" value="v"/>
13:26:16 <Steven> Erik: It supports relevance etc.
13:26:25 <Steven> ... we support that, but it is against the spec
13:27:11 <Steven> ... the rationale is that if you provide context
13:27:22 <Steven> s/ if //
13:28:43 <ebruchez> <Itemset ref="my-items"><label>Label<'/label><value ref="value"/></iemset>
13:29:07 <ebruchez> <Itemset ref="my-item"><label>Label<'/label><value ref="value"/></iemset>
13:29:21 <ebruchez> <Itemset ref="my-item[... some condition ...]"><label>Label<'/label><value ref="value"/></iemset>
13:29:50 <Steven> Erik: this makes items not appear if they are not relevant
13:30:17 <Steven> ... which is maybe an argument for unifying <item> and <itemset>
13:30:51 <Steven> Erik: I would not be enthusiastiv with <item@ref> setting the value of the item
13:30:58 <Steven> s/tiv/tic/
13:32:04 <Steven> Steven: Your suggestion to allow both ref and value would be a spec change
13:32:20 <Steven> ... we now say if there is ref and value, ignore value
13:32:36 <Steven> ... you are saying evaluate both, use the value, but in the context of the ref
13:33:05 <Steven> Philip: I'm happy with that
13:33:33 <Steven> Steven: It's now a small change, now that @value is in Common
13:33:51 <Steven> Erik: It's fine (it's what we do already)
13:34:50 <Steven> Steven: It still retains a strange inconsistencey with item@ref
13:35:02 <Steven> s/cey/cy/
13:35:24 <Steven> Steven: Shall we leave the decision for a week to allow it to sink in?
13:35:54 <Steven> Erik: I see the consistency problem between item and output.
13:36:30 <Steven> ... each has a label and a value
13:37:20 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-2076: Propose text for what value is used when the
13:37:20 <Steven> evaluation of function/result@value fails
13:37:20 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2016Oct/0012.html
13:37:57 <Steven> Erik: Still working on it.
13:38:03 <Steven> Topic: AOB
13:38:10 <Steven> [None]
13:38:15 <Steven> [Adjourn]
13:38:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:38:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/19-forms-minutes.html Steven
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