13:00:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
13:00:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-shapes-irc
13:00:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
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13:00:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
13:00:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
13:00:24 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
13:00:24 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2016
13:03:03 <marqh> marqh has joined #shapes
13:03:40 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.10.11
13:03:47 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
13:04:44 <Arnaud> regrets: pano, simonstey
13:07:15 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
13:08:45 <AndyS> topic: Admin
13:08:48 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 4 Oct 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/04-shapes-minutes.html
13:08:51 <hknublau> +1
13:09:04 <Dimitris> +1
13:09:17 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 4 Oct 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/04-shapes-minutes.html
13:09:21 <Arnaud> present+
13:09:24 <hknublau> present+
13:09:25 <marqh> present+
13:09:25 <Dimitris> present+
13:09:25 <AndyS> present+
13:09:26 <kcoyle> present+
13:09:36 <Labra> Labra has joined #shapes
13:10:00 <AndyS> next week - Eric to chair.
13:10:25 <AndyS> topic: Public Comments
13:10:48 <AndyS> arnaud: karen reformatted the wiki page
13:10:56 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Comments/September2016/
13:11:19 <AndyS> karen: covers Aug and Sept.
13:12:06 <AndyS> ... adding a list of terms that need defining - will create a single issue for them
13:12:45 <AndyS> arnaud: better to be formal in processing comments.
13:13:05 <AndyS> ... thank you Karen for doing this work.
13:13:56 <AndyS> ... we do not need to satisfy each comment - we need to respond to all comments.
13:14:19 <AndyS> ... for answer - proceed with discussion and spec edits.
13:14:50 <AndyS> ... try to get a formal response from PFPS.
13:15:08 <AndyS> topic: Disposal of Raised Issues
13:15:27 <AndyS> ISSUE-186, ISSUE-187, ISSUE-188, ISSUE-189
13:15:47 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-186, ISSUE-187, ISSUE-188, ISSUE-189
13:15:51 <AndyS> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-186, ISSUE-187, ISSUE-188, ISSUE-189
13:16:09 <AndyS> holger: on 189 - seeking clarification
13:16:49 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #shapes
13:17:49 <AndyS> karen: what's an empty graph in this situation?
13:17:52 <Dimitris> q+
13:18:50 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
13:18:55 <TallTed> present+
13:19:30 <AndyS> dimitris: suggest a wrapper with a list of results and the result can be a zero length list.
13:20:38 <AndyS> arnaud: at the moment, seeing if there is an issue to clarify
13:20:40 <TallTed> +1 open issues 186-189
13:22:20 <Dimitris> +1 to open issues
13:23:22 <hknublau> +1
13:23:40 <AndyS> arnaud: need to bring out the knowledge in the implementations
13:23:57 <hknublau> q+
13:24:14 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
13:24:58 <AndyS> holger: maybe scheduling a face-to-face where WG contributes.
13:25:49 <AndyS> arnaud: maybe several days in a row of several hours each day
13:26:01 <kcoyle> +1
13:26:14 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-186, ISSUE-187, ISSUE-188, ISSUE-189
13:26:34 <AndyS> topic: vF2F to dispose of issues and comments
13:26:38 <marqh> q+
13:26:55 <hknublau> +1 for a 3 days / 4 hours per day.
13:27:13 <Arnaud> ack marqh
13:28:38 <AndyS> marqh: would like to contribute to several ... like to structure the sessions so people with some areas not all camn see where to schedule time. e.g. schedule groups of issues.
13:28:58 <AndyS> arnaud: yes - an agenda would be produced.
13:29:47 <AndyS> ... we can prioritise issues
13:30:19 <AndyS> ... also - async means like the wiki to prepare content
13:31:14 <AndyS> q+
13:31:41 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: would you participate in 2 or 3 day virtual f2f - of a 3h or so per day?
13:31:45 <Arnaud> ack AndyS
13:31:47 <hknublau> +1
13:32:46 <AndyS> +1 where I have a useful contribution
13:33:21 <kcoyle> +1
13:33:42 <Dimitris> +1
13:33:51 <Labra> +1
13:33:51 <marqh> +1
13:33:54 <ericP> +1
13:34:08 <TallTed> +1
13:34:25 <ericP> q+ to ask about upcoming conferences
13:34:32 <Arnaud> ack ericP
13:34:32 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask about upcoming conferences
13:35:56 <AndyS> topic: Filter and focus nodes
13:37:30 <AndyS> dimitris: meeting to happen with karen - report next week.
13:37:51 <AndyS> topic: ISSUE-178
13:38:03 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/178
13:39:01 <AndyS> holger: reminder -  possibility for a specific constraint, add a message for validation reports.
13:39:10 <AndyS> ... currently not legal.
13:39:25 <AndyS> ... proposal is to allow this in constraints
13:39:27 <kcoyle> q+
13:39:40 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
13:39:54 <AndyS> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#results-message
13:40:35 <hknublau> q+
13:40:46 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
13:40:59 <AndyS> karen: seems to be different between SHACL core and SHACL full.
13:41:15 <AndyS> holger: intent is that can apply to both.
13:41:47 <AndyS> karen: my Q is about machine generated messages
13:45:20 <Dimitris> q+
13:47:23 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
13:50:42 <AndyS> dimitris: control of the message the engine uses to report
13:51:59 <ericP> q+ to address pushback from shex
13:52:06 <Arnaud> ack ericP
13:52:06 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to address pushback from shex
13:54:06 <kcoyle> q+
13:54:38 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
13:55:43 <AndyS> karen: expect sh:message to be defined on a constraint.
13:56:16 <AndyS> ... (i.e. sec 4 - scribe)
13:56:55 <AndyS> arnaud: this would be done as part of the impl of resolution
13:57:07 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-178, accepting the proposal to allow sh:message to be used in core on a constraint to override the implementation default message
13:57:16 <hknublau> +1
13:57:23 <Dimitris> +1
13:57:26 <TallTed> +1
13:57:30 <kcoyle> +1
13:57:32 <AndyS> +1
13:57:47 <Labra> 0
13:57:53 <ericP> 0
13:58:02 <marqh> +1
13:58:02 <TallTed> +1
13:58:10 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-178, accepting the proposal to allow sh:message to be used in core on a constraint to override the implementation default message
13:58:26 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
13:58:47 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-182
13:58:53 <ericP> issue-182
13:58:54 <trackbot> issue-182 -- Clarifications needed to section 3.0 -- open
13:58:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/182
13:59:24 <ericP> karen: having a formal syntax would be helpful
13:59:34 <ericP> ... it says "results MAY be returned"
13:59:53 <ericP> ... in the library world, we talk about "mandatory" amd "mandatory if applicable"
14:00:58 <ericP> ... does MAY mean "MAY if there are values"? and must ALL values be returned?
14:01:12 <ericP> ... could an impl decide that it's only going to return the first two?
14:01:42 <ericP> [re 3.4.1.3 and 3.4.1.8]
14:02:02 <ericP> hknublau: we discussed that already. sh:value isn't used in the shapes graph so it can't be coded in the constraint
14:02:46 <Arnaud> it is now 3.4.3 http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#results-value
14:02:47 <ericP> kcoyle: it's not coming from the shapes graph but a value has been evaluated.
14:03:09 <ericP> ... if one or more values is evaluated, it appears optional whether to return that in the report.
14:03:22 <ericP> ... if there is more than one value, is it mandatory to return all of them?
14:04:17 <ericP> hknublau: if a value for sh:value is produced, the constraint components explicity mention it.
14:04:20 <Dimitris> we can say it is the value node or the binding of sh:value in SHACL Full
14:04:26 <ericP> ... e.g. 4.9.1 (sh:closed)
14:04:52 <ericP> ... [reads definition which mentions sh:value]
14:07:25 <Dimitris> q+
14:07:53 <Dimitris> q-
14:08:12 <Dimitris> q+
14:08:23 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
14:08:34 <ericP> Arnaud: i think is the sort of thing that pfps has issues with as well
14:09:07 <ericP> Dimitris: so we need to describe what is required and what is returned?
14:12:36 <ericP> [this is all editorial. leaving it to the editors and Karen]
14:12:45 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-140
14:12:47 <hknublau> q+
14:12:51 <ericP> issue-140
14:12:51 <trackbot> issue-140 -- SHACL needs to support validation of individual nodes -- open
14:12:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/140
14:13:11 <Dimitris> current definition is here: http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#validation
14:13:26 <hknublau> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Oct/0030.html
14:13:42 <ericP> hknublau: we discussed this two weeks ago.
14:14:06 <ericP> ... in the email that I linked above, i sought clarification
14:14:16 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/27-shapes-minutes.html#item08
14:14:20 <ericP> ... passing this back to ericP and TallTed
14:14:42 <Dimitris> q+
14:14:47 <ericP> q+
14:15:23 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
14:15:29 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
14:16:00 <ericP> Dimitris: [reads from the spec]
14:16:13 <ericP> ... i think this addresses ericP's concearns
14:16:17 <Arnaud> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#validation
14:17:02 <Arnaud> ack ericP
14:17:12 <ericP> https://shexspec.github.io/spec/#nodeKind
14:20:13 <ericP> Dimitris: are we missing something or do we need to present this better?
14:21:18 <ericP> ericP: the latter, but i think it needs a discearning eye to get it
14:21:48 <kcoyle> q+
14:21:59 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
14:22:17 <ericP> kcoyle: i would like ericP to post his version so the group can see it.
14:24:11 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-131
14:24:16 <ericP> issue-131
14:24:16 <trackbot> issue-131 -- The definition of sh:hasShape has errors and holes -- open
14:24:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/131
14:25:47 <Arnaud> as far as I can tell the last time it was discussed was: https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-shapes-minutes.html#item02
14:29:59 <TallTed> on ISSUE-140 -- what happened to the image showing the narrowing from datagraph -> targets -> filters -> focusnodes ?
14:29:59 <TallTed> I think that shows how to make the validation apply to a single-focusnode-within-a-graph, just by defining target as ex:node
14:30:23 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
14:30:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:30:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, hknublau, marqh, Dimitris, AndyS, kcoyle, TallTed, ericP
14:30:28 <ericP> hknublau: I will propose closure for issue-131 with links
14:30:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:30:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
14:30:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:30:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items