11:59:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
11:59:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/10-poe-irc
11:59:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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11:59:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
11:59:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
11:59:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
11:59:44 <trackbot> Date: 10 October 2016
11:59:51 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:59:59 <renato> present+ renato
12:00:07 <renato> chair: renato
12:00:17 <ivan> Present+ ivan
12:00:29 <renato> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20161010
12:00:35 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
12:01:12 <victor> victor has joined #poe
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12:01:15 <James> present+ James
12:01:19 <victor> present+ victor
12:01:20 <Brian_Ulicny> present+
12:01:27 <renato> Call for a Scribe?
12:01:40 <michaelS> present+ michaelS
12:01:47 <renato> Get your name immortalised here: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings
12:02:05 <CarolineB> present+ CarolineB
12:02:27 <victor> (I would rather not to scribe today. will volunteer in another ocasion as soon as possible)
12:02:37 <renato> Noted ;-)
12:03:32 <michaelS> scribe michaelS
12:03:40 <michaelS> scribe: michaelS
12:03:47 <michaelS> scribenick: michaelS
12:03:48 <benws2> present+
12:03:55 <Sabrina> Sabrina has joined #poe
12:04:10 <Sabrina> present+ sabrina
12:04:36 <phila> present+ phila
12:04:42 <michaelS> topic: last meeting minutes
12:04:45 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:04:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/10-poe-minutes.html phila
12:04:50 <michaelS> https://www.w3.org/2016/10/03-poe-minutes.html
12:05:29 <michaelS> Resolution: the minutes of the last call are accepted
12:05:49 <michaelS> Topic: 2. Use Cases and Requirements
12:06:20 <phila> michaelS: No, I haven't
12:06:23 <michaelS> Simon was active on adding references
12:07:28 <michaelS> topic: 3: Technical Discussion
12:07:44 <michaelS> topic: 3.1 Constraints on Constraints
12:08:21 <michaelS> renator: key issue is that we currently have only a single constraint, how to extend this?
12:08:42 <phila> s/renator/renato/
12:09:32 <michaelS> renato: One of the use cases were in Lisbon: a relative constraint like "may be published 30 minutes after the game"
12:09:50 <phila> q+
12:10:15 <benws2> +1
12:10:16 <michaelS> phila: doesn't seem to me so over-complicated
12:10:17 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:10:23 <michaelS> ... supports to include it.
12:10:23 <phila> ack me
12:10:58 <ivan> q+
12:11:07 <phila> ack i
12:11:41 <benws2> q+
12:11:53 <michaelS> ivan: is this about only a time constraint - or a more generic requirement
12:12:29 <michaelS> ... But this could be solve by starting with the time constraint first and then to make it more generic
12:12:35 <phila> ack b
12:12:58 <michaelS> ben: thinks this is a general issue, not only about time
12:13:23 <michaelS> ... there are use cases related to payments which are very similiar
12:13:41 <michaelS> ... we need a generic solution
12:13:44 <phila> q+
12:14:09 <michaelS> phila: supported ben's thoughts.
12:14:47 <phila> s/phila: supported ben's thoughts.//
12:15:17 <ivan> q+
12:15:18 <michaelS> renato: we need also to express relations between constraints - something "constraint A depends on constraint B"
12:16:11 <michaelS> phila: are all relative time use cases about a related event
12:16:35 <michaelS> ... in this case we only need a new "related event"
12:16:35 <phila> ac me
12:16:37 <phila> ack me
12:17:17 <michaelS> ben: another relative relationship is : payment per account, payment per person
12:18:30 <michaelS> ivan: asked renato to put in IRC his draft of a discussed new solution
12:19:22 <michaelS> renato: has no clear outline, only first ideas
12:20:16 <michaelS> ... we need some thoughts how to do that in the ontology first, then think about encoding
12:20:55 <phila> q+
12:20:56 <michaelS> ... issue: we have to be aware that one thing may occur before the other ... maybe next week.
12:20:59 <phila> ack i
12:21:42 <michaelS> ivan: should we reorder the sequence of solving things
12:22:06 <phila> q-
12:22:27 <michaelS> renato: ok, we could look at relatives time constraints first
12:22:27 <James> sounds a good approach to try
12:22:38 <Sabrina> Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me!
12:24:02 <michaelS> phila: use case "30 minutes after game ended" - what is the right expression to express this logic
12:24:29 <michaelS> ben: maybe the best way to test this examples
12:26:01 <michaelS> renato: constraints on constraints or dependancies across constraints?
12:26:50 <michaelS> renato: let's talk about extended relations
12:27:54 <michaelS> ... to express alternative options, like 'pay' or 'subscribe to a service'
12:28:04 <michaelS> ... what is the model for hat?
12:28:30 <ivan> q+
12:29:00 <benws2> q?
12:29:04 <michaelS> ... does W3C has similar solutions for that?
12:29:06 <phila> s/hat?/that?/
12:29:10 <phila> ack i
12:29:38 <michaelS> ivan: cannot recall such a solution. What renato describes is very close to the previous use case
12:30:53 <michaelS> ... - first you have the triples of the statement and then you want to make a statement about one or more of these triples.
12:31:21 <michaelS> ... this is the typical case for using a named graph
12:31:34 <Brian_Ulicny> q+
12:31:42 <phila> ack b
12:33:06 <michaelS> Brian_Ulicny and ivan discussed options for solving that issue
12:34:47 <michaelS> ivan: thinks what is discussed must be expressed properly in RDF
12:35:09 <michaelS> ben: is this the case for latests suggestions?
12:35:10 <Sabrina> Agreed.... This is what we need to look into....
12:35:17 <phila> q+
12:35:25 <michaelS> ivan: not sure, needs to be checked in detail.
12:35:26 <phila> q-
12:35:26 <Sabrina> I"m happy to look into this
12:35:31 <Sabrina> q
12:35:36 <Sabrina> q+
12:36:02 <michaelS> phila: feels this goes in a very complex direction
12:36:19 <michaelS> ... we might go outside OWL - will users want to do that
12:36:42 <ivan> q+
12:37:25 <michaelS> Discussion about the need for a reasoner.
12:38:22 <phila> ack i
12:38:24 <phila> ack s
12:39:28 <ivan> q+
12:39:42 <phila> ack i
12:39:43 <michaelS> renato: we need to make a model and include that into the existing one but next we need to fit this into the OWL of the ontology
12:40:45 <michaelS> ivan: we might define a reifiction-like object which might have additional information attached to it
12:41:08 <michaelS> ... we might apply a specific URI to a constraint
12:41:50 <michaelS> ... in a next step we could created a list of URIs/constraints and apply a next level of relationships/dependancies to them
12:42:17 <michaelS> ... we should try that - may there are hidden problems
12:43:04 <michaelS> renato: the additional constraints should be added as additional data - the basic date should always be the same
12:44:28 <michaelS> ... it would be great if some come up with example solutions this week and we could look at them at the next call
12:44:41 <James> I don't mind
12:44:51 <michaelS> ... who volunteers for that`?
12:45:12 <James> sure
12:45:22 <benws2> Me too
12:45:22 <James> Be good to have more than pair of eyes
12:45:31 <James> *one pair
12:45:43 <michaelS> ivan: voluteers to look at the examples, but will be in China next week
12:45:51 <Sabrina> I will look into OWL
12:46:07 <Sabrina> I am also not here next week as I will be at ISWC in Japan
12:46:08 <michaelS> renato: will communicate next steps with the volunteers
12:46:20 <victor> (please count me in)
12:46:37 <Brian_Ulicny> q+
12:46:42 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:46:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/10-poe-minutes.html phila
12:46:44 <phila> sck b
12:46:47 <phila> ack b
12:46:57 <Brian_Ulicny> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen%27s_interval_algebra
12:47:01 <phila> s/sck b//
12:47:17 <phila> q+ to talk about Allen's algebra
12:47:31 <phila> ack me
12:47:31 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about Allen's algebra
12:47:33 <michaelS> Brian_Ulicny: we should investigate the different types of temporal relations
12:48:16 <michaelS> phila: Special Data WG is behind registering such temporal relations
12:48:42 <michaelS> topic: 3.2 Validity of Policy
12:49:18 <michaelS> renato: how to express that a policy is only valid in a stricly defined period - by what means to express that?
12:49:32 <benws2> q+
12:49:45 <benws2> q?
12:51:04 <phila> -> http://lov.okfn.org/dataset/lov/terms?q=valid%20from%20(0..1) LOV search for valid from
12:51:20 <michaelS> ben: aren't there already existing time constraint properties?
12:51:40 <michaelS> phila: searched for "valid from" and found many
12:51:44 <ivan> q+
12:51:50 <benws2> q-
12:51:55 <phila> ack i
12:52:39 <michaelS> ivan: looks a provenance ontology, has some very specific time related properties - this group did not try to find a generic solution
12:53:00 <James> I think we want "expires"
12:54:37 <michaelS> renato: common wording is "valid from" and valid to"
12:55:00 <michaelS> ... clarified the suggestion of "expires": is the  same as "valid to"
12:56:19 <michaelS> victor: how to proceed, by exchanging emails?
12:56:23 <michaelS> renato: yea
12:56:37 <michaelS> Topic: 4 Deliverables List
12:57:12 <michaelS> renato: the group has discussed already what should be put on this list. There is a list of documents in the Charter
12:57:22 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/poe6
12:57:58 <michaelS> renato: went over the items shown in https://www.w3.org/2016/09/poe6
13:00:08 <michaelS> phila: will support finding a solution for item 5, mapping
13:00:12 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/poe8
13:00:35 <michaelS> Topic: 5 WG Timeline
13:00:54 <michaelS> renato: went over the draft at https://www.w3.org/2016/09/poe6
13:02:09 <michaelS> Topic: 6 Action items + issues
13:02:40 <ivan> q+
13:03:03 <phila> ack i
13:03:06 <michaelS> victor: volunteered to organize the f2f meeting in March - details at the next call
13:03:32 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minuytes
13:03:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minuytes', phila.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:03:35 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/10-poe-minutes.html phila
13:03:40 <michaelS> ivan: will send out an email about what he discussed above
13:04:05 <michaelS> renato: thanked all participants and closed the call
13:04:12 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/10-poe-minutes.html phila
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