IRC log of svg on 2016-10-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:29:42 [RRSAgent]
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20:29:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-svg-irc
20:30:15 [nikos]
trackbot, start telcon
20:30:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:30:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:30:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
20:30:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:30:20 [trackbot]
Date: 06 October 2016
20:30:26 [nikos]
Chair: Nikos
20:30:31 [nikos]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016Oct/0001.html
20:31:04 [nikos]
present+ nikos
20:31:14 [Tav]
present+ Tav
20:31:17 [stakagi]
present+ stakagi
20:31:17 [shane]
present+ Shane
20:31:18 [birtles]
present+ birtles
20:31:20 [shepazu]
present+ shepazu
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20:31:38 [hober]
present+
20:31:41 [krit]
+krit
20:31:49 [krit]
present+ krit
20:31:55 [jwatt]
+jwatt
20:32:16 [AmeliaBR]
present+ AmeliaBR
20:32:35 [shepazu]
https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/svg-2016.html
20:32:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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20:33:17 [hober]
present+ smfr
20:33:18 [nikos]
scribe: Nikos
20:33:20 [nikos]
scribenick: nikos
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20:33:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
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20:35:42 [jwatt]
present+ jwatt
20:35:59 [nikos]
Topic: Proposed Charter
20:36:06 [TabAtkins]
present+ tabatkins
20:36:11 [TabAtkins]
present+ Alex Russell
20:36:19 [TabAtkins]
present+ Philip Rogers (pdr)
20:36:32 [Rossen_]
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20:36:41 [Rossen_]
present+ Rossen
20:36:46 [Rossen_]
present+ Bogdan
20:36:53 [TabAtkins]
present+ Shane Stephens
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20:37:21 [nikos]
https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/svg-2016.html
20:37:21 [shepazu]
https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/svg-2016.html
20:37:21 [shepazu]
https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/svg-2016.html
20:37:34 [nikos]
shepazu: This charter is a short term one year charter
20:37:38 [ChrisL]
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20:37:52 [nikos]
... it assumes that the only work item is the completion of SVG 2
20:38:08 [nikos]
... which means finalising the spec and removing any at risk features, making sure everything in the spec is tested and has implementations
20:38:17 [nikos]
... there are some additional deliverables, that have to do with a11y TF
20:38:34 [nikos]
... there is some overlap between a11y TF and SVG WG but it's just a few people
20:38:49 [nikos]
... the final deliverable is the SVG authoring guide - which is a non normative guide to authoring SVG
20:39:09 [nikos]
... which includes SVG 2 features and is intended to be aspirational to let authors see what they would like implemented
20:39:23 [dbaron]
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20:39:58 [nikos]
nikos: a lot of deliverables have been moved to the CSSWG and the FXTF is not in the proposed charter
20:40:01 [ChrisL]
present+ ChrisL
20:40:05 [nikos]
AmeliaBR: that was decided at TPAC?
20:40:06 [nikos]
nikos: yes
20:40:18 [krit]
https://svgwg.org
20:40:30 [nikos]
shepazu: final thing to note is the few modules (paths, stroke, and markers), those were broken out of hte new spec and include new features
20:40:36 [nikos]
... those are not included in the new charter
20:40:51 [nikos]
nikos: but could be picked up by a future WG / CG
20:41:07 [nikos]
shepazu: So the scope of the charter was narrowed further at TPAC
20:41:19 [nikos]
... part of our goal today is to decide if this is a reasonable plan and if there's a path forward for this
20:41:27 [dbaron]
Present+ dbaron
20:41:58 [nikos]
Topic: W3C persepective on SVG 2 ongoing
20:42:12 [nikos]
plh: From the W3C perspective we have SVG 1.1 and the spec is 10-12 years old
20:42:17 [fguimont]
present+ fguimont
20:42:20 [nikos]
shepazu: SVG 1.1 SE was published in 2012
20:42:27 [nikos]
plh: it fixes bugs from the previous version
20:42:33 [nikos]
... so what I'm looking for is the next step after that
20:42:43 [nikos]
... my minimum bar is that there are probably more bugs to fix in the spec
20:42:52 [nikos]
... and we should find a path to update that recommendation, to fix those bugs
20:43:01 [nikos]
... also implementations have been evolving so we should reflect that
20:43:12 [nikos]
... I understand SVG 2 has features that do contain 2 implementations but are not part of SVG 1.1 SE
20:43:18 [nikos]
... so they should be part of the next SVG
20:43:30 [nikos]
... then there are things that don't have two implementations - and we should figure out what to keep and what not to keep
20:43:54 [nikos]
... I'm not her eto tell you how to make that call, but from a process point of view, we need implementation experience
20:44:08 [nikos]
... then there are things that are not close to having two implementations and we don't know how we'll get implementations
20:44:14 [nikos]
... in my opinion we'll need to drop thos
20:44:17 [nikos]
s/thos/those
20:44:22 [nikos]
... or we'll never get to ship the REC
20:44:42 [Rossen_]
present+ Adrian Bateman
20:44:44 [nikos]
... I'm looking for an update path where we can fix bugs in the existing SVG 1.1 spec, add things that have two implementations that aren't in SVG 1.1
20:44:46 [shepazu]
q+
20:44:51 [nikos]
TabAtkins: that's what we want as well
20:45:07 [nikos]
... we would love to see the SVG WG continue it's work filling in corner cases and better defining them
20:45:19 [nikos]
... new features that haven't picked up interest yet should be pushed to WICG
20:45:27 [nikos]
... don't want them to hold up the draft itself
20:45:39 [nikos]
... that way we can get SVG 2 done in the next year
20:46:14 [nikos]
alex: There's going to be questions about how to integrate accessibility and other features into SVG and that could go beyond a year charter
20:46:42 [nikos]
TabAtkins: a few of the things we want to pull out are hatch and mesh gradients - they are valuable features, it's a brand new feature that hasn't been well implemented
20:46:52 [nikos]
... and can be independently developed just fine
20:47:01 [Rossen_]
q+
20:47:02 [nikos]
... and developed in WICG until we get implementer interest
20:47:28 [nikos]
... separating out things that haven't picked up implementer interest would help with the one year plan
20:47:59 [nikos]
adrian: I'm in favour of progressing with removing the features taht clearly haven't captured the enthusiasm of implementers
20:48:14 [nikos]
... if we can easily identify the things that aren't going to gain implementation soon
20:48:26 [nikos]
... it's going to be difficult to say we have good experience with them and progress
20:48:32 [nikos]
... we should identify and remove them quickly
20:48:48 [nikos]
... for other things where there is interest and there is some implementation work being done, I want us to be pragmatic
20:48:58 [nikos]
... if there is enough experience in the group implementing a feature
20:49:12 [nikos]
... and the spec is in good shape and describes what we all agree can and should be implemented
20:49:26 [nikos]
... then I want to make sure we don't get stuck in a trap of not making progress because things aren't perfect
20:49:31 [nikos]
... spec will never be perfect
20:49:42 [shepazu]
q+ to ask whether authoring tools and polyfills count as implementations
20:49:59 [nikos]
... move forward with things we do have experience with
20:50:24 [plh]
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20:50:31 [Rossen_]
ack Rossen_
20:50:52 [nikos]
tess: We largely agree with what Adrian said
20:51:09 [nikos]
... as far as short term work in SVG - we are mostly concerned with perf fixes and compatibility problems with our own engine
20:51:18 [nikos]
... probably some low hanging fruit SVG 2 stuff we could do
20:51:25 [nikos]
... charter seems reasonable, what Adrian said seems reasonable
20:51:28 [krit]
q+
20:51:28 [nikos]
... See Dean's email for more
20:51:36 [shepazu]
q- later
20:51:45 [nikos]
krit: When I look at the current spec that went to CR
20:51:51 [nikos]
... we see a bunch of features that got added
20:51:55 [nikos]
... mesh gradients, hatches, etc
20:52:07 [nikos]
... many of those features are at risk which is fine for CR and shouldn't block REC
20:52:15 [nikos]
... if we know for other features we ahve two implementations
20:52:23 [nikos]
... keeping them in and see how other features proceed
20:52:33 [nikos]
... for Adobe, the most important thing is SVG should be accessible
20:52:43 [nikos]
... SVG 2 has improvemetns there and a11y TF specs are coming up
20:52:55 [nikos]
... for SVG again, many of the features that aren't named yet have one implementation
20:53:00 [nikos]
... so I don't see SVG 2 as being in bad shape
20:53:18 [nikos]
... another part is Adobe have a strong interest in getting more features - e.g. mesh gradients, stroke features, variable width stroke, etc
20:53:34 [nikos]
... which do not neccessarily need to live in the SVG WG ,but we do want to see them proceed
20:53:56 [jwatt]
mic issue
20:54:03 [jwatt]
one sec, I'll change my headset
20:54:14 [nikos]
birtles: Our position is the same - we are very interested in compat fixes and simplifications, and reconciling SVG with HTML
20:54:22 [nikos]
... picking up low hanging fruit
20:54:33 [nikos]
... but we don't have plans for mesh gradients or hash patterns
20:54:45 [nikos]
... we are interested in z-index, have done the refactoring
20:55:15 [nikos]
jwatt: I'd be interested in z-index
20:55:20 [nikos]
... it's not a big change for us to implement
20:55:38 [nikos]
... to reiterate what Brian said - we are mostly interested in perf in our own engine and compatibility rather than new features
20:55:48 [nikos]
... interesting to hear from Adobe that they're interested in new features
20:55:56 [nikos]
... vast majority of people are going to want to use a tool
20:56:13 [nikos]
... so less likely to hear from authors waht they want, they'll go to the tool vendors
20:56:22 [nikos]
... wonder if there's something we can do there to get feedback
20:56:33 [nikos]
... we haven't been hearing much feedback other than performance and compatibility
20:56:41 [nikos]
... e.g. how the use element works
20:56:43 [AmeliaBR]
q+ to discuss practical modularization possibilities
20:56:50 [krit]
q-
20:57:04 [nikos]
Tav: InkScape is very interested in mesh gradients and hatches
20:57:09 [Rossen_]
ack shepazu
20:57:09 [Zakim]
shepazu, you wanted to ask whether authoring tools and polyfills count as implementations
20:57:11 [nikos]
... it's important for artists to be able to use these tools
20:57:25 [nikos]
... very disapointing to hear these are not high priority for others
20:57:31 [plh]
q+
20:57:34 [nikos]
krit: think we do agree interoperability is one of the most important things
20:57:50 [nikos]
cabanier: from what I've heard at Adobe accessibility, interop and performance
20:58:05 [nikos]
TabAtkins: seems to be consitent that browser vendors are focusing on interop and finish existing features
20:58:12 [nikos]
... not so interested in new features at the moment
20:58:19 [nikos]
... tools are interest in new features
20:58:33 [nikos]
... this is why separting things to WICG to gather interest is a good idea
20:58:42 [nikos]
... not blocking the spec
20:59:01 [nikos]
... moving things to WICG still lets you spend the time building, but builds interest organically rather than slowing down the spec
20:59:14 [nikos]
cabanier: so every new feature except accessibility should be in WICG?
20:59:16 [nikos]
AmeliaBR: not that simple
20:59:35 [nikos]
TabAtkins: things that have n't picked up implementer interst should be carved out - easy to carve out mesh gradients and hatch
20:59:57 [nikos]
... lots of things are small changes (e.g. dom changes) are probably ok even though no one is working on them eyt
21:00:16 [nikos]
https://nikosandronikos.github.io/svg2-info/svg2-feature-support.html
21:01:24 [Rossen_]
q+
21:01:31 [nikos]
nikos: I've been working on a matrix to gather feedback - would like to get concrete feedback from each group. Would be good to get PRs from each group to update the data
21:02:18 [nikos]
shepazu: I was wondering what the current thinking counting authoring tools and polyfills as implementations for the purpose of CR exit?
21:02:38 [nikos]
plh: Interesting question. Political correct answer is you need to show dev experience
21:02:49 [TabAtkins]
Back!
21:02:55 [nikos]
... my best recommendation is about providing a good argument to the director about how you are going to move the spec forward
21:03:06 [nikos]
... we dont' say implementation should be in web browser or not
21:03:16 [nikos]
... no such thing as a definitive answer
21:03:35 [nikos]
... svg is part of the editing system - that's why we don't see requests to browsers
21:03:36 [dbaron]
I think if the spec is claiming that it's to be implemented in browsers, then you probably shouldn't be counting polyfills. But if the spec is a spec for JS library features, then it makes sense.
21:03:44 [nikos]
... bit of a chicken and egg problem
21:03:54 [nikos]
... I don't want to say Inkscape isn't an implementation of SVG
21:03:59 [AmeliaBR]
ack me
21:03:59 [Zakim]
AmeliaBR, you wanted to discuss practical modularization possibilities
21:04:03 [TabAtkins]
q+
21:04:12 [plh]
q-
21:04:14 [nikos]
AmeliaBR: I just wanted to go over what we can do practically - agree with what plh said
21:04:26 [nikos]
... for many new features we've got a big step to cross over
21:04:48 [nikos]
... editors won't make markup if it won't be used in browsers and browsers wont support feature if it's not being used
21:04:52 [nikos]
... polyfills are a good solution for that
21:05:06 [nikos]
... in a broader sense - paint servers are an easy target for modularisation
21:05:12 [nikos]
... they can easily be pulled out because of a module
21:05:22 [nikos]
... whether it makes sense at this point with a pretty much complete spec
21:05:29 [nikos]
... not sure what incubation is expected
21:05:32 [shepazu]
q?
21:05:41 [shepazu]
agenda+ testing
21:05:45 [shepazu]
agenda?
21:06:03 [nikos]
... there's a lot of small features and some tricky new features to separate out
21:06:19 [nikos]
... e.g. text chapter has been hugely rewritten and the new prose is about fixing unspecified details of the old spec
21:06:36 [nikos]
... and a lot is about supporting new features - multi line text and harmonisation of css
21:06:45 [nikos]
... separating out the new features would be a lot of spec work
21:06:56 [nikos]
... before we start that we probably want a serious discussion from implementors
21:07:03 [nikos]
... about wrapping text, etc
21:07:21 [Rossen_]
wrapping text is not a priority for us
21:07:22 [nikos]
... for browser implementations, a lot of these changes are supposed to be about helping them reuse CSS code
21:07:37 [nikos]
... then there's z-index, paint-order, vector-effects
21:07:56 [nikos]
... in many cases we have some implementations - do we want to be strict and say all features should go into a new module?
21:08:03 [nikos]
... or say they're out on the web and so they're an interop concern?
21:08:17 [nikos]
TabAtkins: antyhing that already has some interest is fine to keep here
21:08:46 [nikos]
... it's just features that have no web implementor interest that are suspect - nothing wrong with what InkScape have done but they have different concerns than browsers
21:08:56 [nikos]
... design of a feature isn't complete if web implementors haven't looked at it yet
21:09:04 [Rossen_]
q?
21:09:24 [nikos]
... we don't have to be strict about this, we can be go piece by piece for a few issues. Don't need to decide everything now
21:09:34 [nikos]
... we want to get SVG 2 to stability
21:09:42 [nikos]
... anything on that track is fine, anything not get rid of
21:10:14 [nikos]
adrian: It sounds like we have two choices - we can keep the current spec as it is, if we do that there's no prospect of the spec progressing anytime soon
21:10:31 [nikos]
... or we can remove some things from the spec in order to get what plh describes as being a good story
21:10:31 [krit]
q+
21:10:48 [Rossen_]
q-
21:10:49 [nikos]
... maybe there isn't consensus on what to remove and we're not going to agree on this call
21:10:59 [plh]
q+ to talk about regular releases of SVG
21:11:11 [TabAtkins]
ack
21:11:16 [TabAtkins]
ack TabAtkins
21:11:23 [nikos]
... proposal is to move forward and recharter to narrow focus, remove features that aren't going to meet exit criteria anytime soon
21:11:34 [nikos]
... if people object to that we can talk, but I'm not hearing that
21:12:02 [shepazu]
q+ to note that there's also the idea of closing the SVG WG, and to talk about timeline
21:12:03 [nikos]
krit: SVG 2 spec is currently CR - what kind of progress to we expect? If features are not defined correctly then spec should not be in CR
21:12:30 [nikos]
... I get the impression that everyone feels the spec can not proceed at the moment and features are not implementable
21:12:46 [nikos]
adrian: it's not about not being implementable, it's about not getting experience necessary to indicate that
21:12:56 [shane]
q+
21:13:02 [nikos]
krit: it would have been better to get that input before going to CR - but a lot of those features are at risk anyway
21:13:22 [nikos]
... think we should focus on things that are not at risk
21:13:42 [nikos]
Rossen_: our push has been to get the spec to something shippable
21:13:56 [nikos]
... almost two years later we have something that can pretty much be shipped
21:14:02 [TabAtkins]
+1 to Rossen
21:14:02 [nikos]
... some things we need to mark at risk
21:14:04 [shane]
q-
21:14:11 [nikos]
... some things we can move to WICG
21:14:15 [krit]
q-
21:14:16 [shane]
100% agree with Rossen
21:14:28 [nikos]
shepazu: Going to CR was a declaration that we weren't adding anything new and in terms of new work things were stable
21:14:40 [shane]
krit: for the record Rossen, Tab and I have been providing exactly the input you claim was missing before CR for at least 12 months now
21:14:56 [nikos]
shepazu: you're right we may need to go back to CR again
21:16:04 [nikos]
nikos: think we need to get concrete feedback - we're not going to work out what the svg 2 spec will look like that this call
21:16:21 [nikos]
plh: my goal is not to stop work on SVG - but publishing SVG on a regular basis
21:16:31 [nikos]
... ideally every WG should publish a REC on a three year basis
21:17:24 [nikos]
nikos: sounds reasonable and SVG 2 helps taht a lot because it's a big tidy up of what we had before and will make it easier to continue work
21:17:25 [AmeliaBR]
q+
21:17:31 [nikos]
ack plh
21:17:31 [Zakim]
plh, you wanted to talk about regular releases of SVG
21:17:41 [AmeliaBR]
ack shepazu
21:17:41 [Zakim]
shepazu, you wanted to note that there's also the idea of closing the SVG WG, and to talk about timeline
21:18:10 [nikos]
shepazu: I counted that we have 138 distinct features
21:18:19 [nikos]
... 3 tests per feature for minimum viable testing strategy
21:18:33 [nikos]
... that gives 448 tests - that's about 55 hours of testing, giving one hour per test
21:18:51 [nikos]
s/55 hours/55 days
21:19:18 [nikos]
... obviously it's not going to happen in three months - but I want to be realistic. If we went full bore it would take that long to prepare the test suite
21:19:52 [Rossen_]
smfr: are you saying you have that much perf work to do?
21:20:05 [nikos]
... I don't see us doing the work within this charter, there would need to be an extension or recharter if we are going to do this task
21:20:22 [nikos]
... I'm hearing from browser vendors that they would like to see SVG 2 reach some completion
21:20:27 [nikos]
... whether it's the way it is now or stripped back
21:20:55 [nikos]
... even with stripped down we are looking at at least an additional 3-6 months work
21:20:57 [nikos]
... and that's agressive
21:21:08 [jwatt]
q+
21:21:09 [Rossen_]
q+ adrianba
21:21:11 [nikos]
... don't know how you feel about comiting to that?
21:21:24 [nikos]
... need committment to help
21:21:45 [nikos]
plh: I would be concerned if the result was this was going to fall to W3C staff to complete the tests
21:21:54 [nikos]
... my idea would be the community at large would work to make svg better
21:22:04 [nikos]
ack AmeliaBR
21:22:28 [nikos]
AmeliaBR: do we need to consider in the charter to use more general language if we are going to split sections out?
21:22:37 [nikos]
... in terms of what the deliverables are
21:22:50 [nikos]
... if we split things out of svg 2, do the new modules automatically become in scope?
21:22:54 [nikos]
... can we be flexible?
21:23:21 [shepazu]
q+
21:23:35 [nikos]
ack jwatt
21:23:48 [nikos]
jwatt: what format will the new tests be?
21:24:02 [nikos]
shepazu: we're looking to use web-platform-tests
21:24:36 [nikos]
... probably we would not transfer old tests over - if old tests apply we keep them in the existing test framework
21:25:31 [Rossen_]
q?
21:25:34 [nikos]
jwatt: web-platform-tests sounds good to me, rather than converting old tests, it would be better to take tests from Mozilla's reftest for example
21:26:10 [nikos]
adrian: concrete proposal is to recharter SVG WG with narrow scope and narrow time frame to remove featuers that will not be implemented in that time frame
21:26:22 [TabAtkins]
+1
21:26:28 [Rossen_]
+1
21:26:50 [plh]
q+
21:26:53 [nikos]
... it's about getting the spec progressing
21:26:56 [plh]
+1
21:27:08 [shane]
+1
21:27:53 [nikos]
RESOLUTION: Re-charter SVG WG for one more year with a focus on moving SVG 2 to REC with only the features that have implementor experience
21:28:05 [nikos]
Rossen_: can we try something shorter than a year?
21:28:33 [nikos]
shepazu: we should try for less than one year
21:29:11 [Rossen_]
OK, recharter for <= 365 days
21:29:13 [plh]
q?
21:29:17 [nikos]
nikos: think that would only be a good idea if we can get concrete commitments for time from each member
21:29:28 [Rossen_]
ack adrianba
21:29:49 [shepazu]
q-
21:30:05 [nikos]
plh: Adrian used the word pragmatic earlier - and it's good to emphasise rthat
21:30:25 [nikos]
.. we don't need to have a fully comprehensive test suite. We want a spec within a year and it's a matter of telling a good story to the director to move things forward
21:30:26 [shepazu]
(minimum viable test suite)
21:30:32 [nikos]
.. and then we keep iterating
21:30:39 [nikos]
krit: spec in a year doesn't mean REC?
21:30:46 [nikos]
plh: it does mean REC
21:31:04 [nikos]
... if you don't have implementation you remove the feature from the spec
21:31:13 [nikos]
AmeliaBR: our next step then is sorting out what are implementors priorties
21:31:26 [nikos]
... so Nikos can you send an email to gather feedback?
21:31:44 [nikos]
... which features are implemented, partially implemented, or have some priority or not
21:31:53 [krit]
nikos: is there a way to specify a priority of features that members would like to see proceed?
21:32:27 [nikos]
nikos: Keep an eye out on www-svg and I'll send something out
21:32:38 [nikos]
shepazu: having a point person for each implementation would be handy right now
21:32:45 [nikos]
... so we know who to talk to about plans
21:33:35 [nikos]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:33:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-svg-minutes.html nikos
21:36:13 [pdr]
Have there been implementations of the scrollbar changes? That is, supporting overflow scroll?
21:45:10 [nikos]
pdr: not afaik - if anyone has done anything it would be Mozilla I'd expect
21:45:45 [pdr]
Cool, thanks.
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