08:03:05 RRSAgent has joined #wot 08:03:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-irc 08:03:17 meeting: WoT IG F2F 08:03:21 chair: Joerg 08:03:32 scribenick: dsr 08:03:38 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_September_2016,_Portugal,_Lisbon#Agenda 08:03:39 ryuichi has joined #wot 08:04:01 jwehrman has joined #wot 08:04:18 Joerg introduces the meeting, mentioning the successful plugfest during the plenary day on Wednesday. 08:04:30 rrsagent, set logs public 08:04:33 ningxinhu has joined #wot 08:04:46 Joerg displays the IG’s roadmap and walks us through it 08:04:46 present+ Jungbin_Kim(Letsee) 08:05:10 kaz has joined #wot 08:05:13 sam has joined #wot 08:05:41 rrsagent, make log public 08:05:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:05:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 08:06:03 martin has joined #wot 08:06:37 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon(ETRI) 08:06:39 i/introduces/topic: Welcome/ 08:07:07 ryuichi_ has joined #wot 08:07:20 In summary, we started by collecting atomic use cases, we then explored them experimentally through plugfests, and went on to prepare a charter for working group to drive the initial standards. 08:07:26 mkovatsc has joined #wot 08:07:35 present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka 08:07:40 The working group charter is currently being reviewed by the W3C Advisory Committee. 08:08:04 present+ Dave_Raggett 08:08:59 ohsumi has joined #wot 08:09:28 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #wot 08:09:33 present+ Wonsuk_Lee(ETRI) 08:09:35 We now are looking forward to next steps for the WoT IG, e.g. reviewing the building blocks in the current practice document, to propose improvements, and to review the architecture document. 08:09:44 could someone share the slides links? 08:09:45 dape has joined #wot 08:09:50 michael has joined #wot 08:09:55 present+ Yingying_Chen 08:10:39 Joerg displays the F2F agenda 08:10:51 ->https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_September_2016,_Portugal,_Lisbon#Agenda 08:10:58 Is there a teleconference or hangout for remote participation? 08:11:13 https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_September_2016,_Portugal,_Lisbon#WoT_IG_Agenda 08:11:20 jhund has joined #wot 08:11:36 present+ Johannes_Hund 08:11:42 present+ Martin Alvarez-Espinar (CTIC) 08:12:12 present+ raphael 08:12:32 Joerg: we will now have a sequence of invited talks from guests 08:14:08 Hyunjin has joined #wot 08:14:20 Kangchan has joined #wot 08:14:54 Joerg runs through the rest of the agenda and introduces the breakouts. We have a separate space which is a little hard to find 08:15:22 danbri has joined #wot 08:16:23 hyojin has joined #wot 08:16:48 present+ schuki 08:19:37 ryuichi has joined #wot 08:20:02 I would follow on webex if it was available 08:20:09 Kangchan has joined #wot 08:21:42 McCool has joined #wot 08:22:01 sebastian has joined #wot 08:22:03 Thanks looks like member login 08:22:29 Topic: Spatial Data on the Web WG 08:22:40 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch@Siemens 08:22:41 kaz_ has joined #wot 08:22:50 michael, its on the members list a mial with the webex data 08:22:56 *mail 08:23:39 Kerry Taylor introduces herself - I am the co-chair of the spatial data on the web working group. 08:24:11 A few of you came along to our face to face earlier this week for a joint meeting. 08:24:23 I don't think I have the login 08:25:06 We’re a joint group between W3C and the OGC. The group is chaired by myself and Ed Parsons of Google, our W3C Staff contact is Phil Archer 08:25:31 olivexu has joined #wot 08:25:38 We have a lot of deliverables in our charter. 08:25:42 ( OGC overlaps for e.g., sensor specs - http://www.opengeospatial.org/domain/swe ) 08:26:25 https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Main_Page 08:26:48 DarkoAnicic has joined #wot 08:27:02 present+ DarkoAnicic 08:27:22 Kerry summarises the current work items 08:27:41 cabo has joined #wot 08:27:42 best practices, semantic sensor networks, OWL-Time, and Coverage 08:27:49 zkis has joined #wot 08:28:08 The latter is related to satelite imagery 08:28:46 Kerry displays a slide on the semantic sensor networks ontology. 08:28:46 OK got the webex, thanks! 08:29:29 This was created in a W3C incubator group. It is a detailed ontology for the capabilities and properties of sensors. 08:29:47 Milan_Patel has joined #wot 08:29:54 with lots more besides - it is pretty comprehensive 08:30:17 The SSN ontology is an OWL 2 DL ontology. 08:31:13 We’re trying to simplify it, working on some extensions, alignment with our best practices, time ontology, provenance. We 08:31:21 We’re also working on a primer 08:33:29 Kerry: we doing some work on ONM 08:34:18 In out F2F this week, we discussed the WoT requirements. These are still too unstable to consider incorporating into SSN 08:34:37 We talked about the terms used by our group and the WoT IG 08:34:53 We looking at adding a link to a thing description 08:35:51 We also implementation needs that could be supported by WoT plugfests 08:36:39 Questions? 08:37:06 Michael McCool: one use case is in robotics, have you looked at that? We should chat about it. 08:37:13 Kerry: we haven’t as yet 08:38:04 Sebastian Kaebish: I like the idea of integrating a TD pointer in SSN 08:39:10 Dave Raggett: does SSN lend itself to fine grained modularity so that people can just use what they need? 08:39:54 s/Dave Raggett:/Dave_Raggett:/ 08:39:55 Kerry: short answer is no, but we do have some course grain modules and continuing to discuss this, we welcome feedback. 08:40:22 Kangchan has joined #wot 08:40:33 s/Sebastian Kaebish/Sebastian_Kaebisch/ 08:40:41 There will be two versions of SSN, a simple one and a more comprehensive one. 08:40:43 s/Michael McCool/Michael_McCool/ 08:40:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:40:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 08:41:04 Joerg discusses some next steps 08:42:23 He asks about implementation and what goals we could have for the plugfest 08:42:59 Kerry: SSN is used a lot in WoT applications, e.g. smart cities, building automation, etc. 08:43:55 present+ Kaz_Ashimura(W3C), Taizo_Kinoshita(Hitachi), Martin_Alvarez(CTIC), Yoshiaki_Ohsumi(Panasonic), Kazuo_Kajimoto(Panasonic), Masato_Ohura(Panasonic), Darko_Anicic(Siemens), Kazuaki_Nimura(Fujitsu), Victor_Charpenay(Siemens), Ryuichi_Matsukura(Fujitsu), Ari_Keranen(Ericsson), Kelly_Taylor(ANU), Jonathan_Jeon(ETRI), Barry_Leiba(Huawei) 08:44:36 present+ Federico_Sismondi(INRIA), Cesar_Viho(INRIA), Johannes_Hund(Siemens), Wonsuk_Lee(ETRI) 08:44:52 Darko: we should consider how to use SSN for online plugfests and exploit geospatial data for sensors 08:45:19 Kerry cites someone in her group who she thinks would be interested in that 08:45:45 We thank Kerry for her presentation. 08:45:58 Topic: GSMA IoT security guidelines 08:46:23 nunoken has joined #wot 08:46:59 Natasha Rooney presents 08:47:38 Full topic: Securing the Internet of Things, Applying best practice to reduce risks. 08:48:00 Natasha: today I want to talk about our security guidlines for the IoT 08:48:17 present+ Fernando_Serena(UPM), Andre_Ciortea(UDL), Ryan_Ware(Intel), Maxime_Lefrancois(UDL), Claes_Nilsson(Sony), Michael_McCool(Intel), Yingying_Chen(W3C), Carsten_Bormann(TZI), Sebastian_Kaebisch(Siemens), Matthias_Kovatsch(Siemens), Dominique_Guinard(EVRYTHNG), Joerg_Heuer(Siemens), Dave_Raggett(W3C) 08:48:48 Mobile operators expect a lot of IoT data traffic on their networks. There are a lot of concerns to be addressed 08:49:39 We’re interested in low power devices, long lifecycles, low cost, and physical accessibility of devices 08:50:24 She presents a long list of key security considerations for developers 08:51:31 http://www.gsma.com/connectedliving/future-iot-networks/iot-security-guidelines/ 08:51:56 present+ Daniel_Peintner(Siemens), Dirk_Lissfeld(DT), Andrew_Min-gyu_Han(Hansung_Univ.;observer), Takuki_Kamiya(Fujitsu), Toshihiko_Yamakami(ACCESS), Katsuyoshi_Naka(Panasonic), Achille_Zappa(INSIGHT), Uday_Davuluru(RWE), Qing_An(Alibaba), Ningxin_Hu(Intel) 08:52:20 domguinard has joined #wot 08:52:48 Natasha: I will talk you through the steps for securing IoT services. 08:52:59 There are three documents you can look at 08:53:33 You need to evaluate the technical model, to review the service’s current security model, to review and evaluate our recommendations, ... 08:53:58 present+ Jungbin_Kim(Letsee), Philipp_Hoschka(W3C), Hyunjin_Shin(HCTF), Jeff_Wehrman(PTC), Suguru_Asai(UNI), Yuki_Matsuda(UNI), Natasha_Rooney(GSMA), Zoltan_Kis(Intel) 08:54:18 Our documents include an overview, end point ecosystems, service ecosystems and network operators. 08:54:45 The guidelines include some worked examples. 08:54:51 daisuke has joined #wot 08:55:35 yingying_ has joined #wot 08:56:28 We have an IoT security self assessment checklist 08:56:52 You can use this to invite review from the GSMA 08:56:56 present+ Dan_Brickley(Google), Jeremy_Tandy(Met_Office), Chen_Bo(China_Unicom), Youngsun_Ryu(Samsung), Koichi_Takagi(KDDI), Fabien_Gandon(INRIA), Jaesung_Han(Samsung), Tatsuya_Igarashi(Sony), Branimir_Angelov(Wacom;observer), Milan_Patel(Huawei), Masaru_Miyazaki(NHK) 08:56:59 uday has joined #wot 08:57:09 victor has joined #wot 08:59:24 Nastasha skims through the Service ecosystem document 09:00:23 One example, is defining a recovery model following a security incident 09:01:00 You’re invited to review our documents and to provide us with feedback. 09:02:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:02:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 09:02:47 Milan_Patel has joined #wot 09:02:54 Dave: I was at IoTW in Berlin this week, and one thing I noticed was that human error is something really critical to cover, what do the GSMA guidelines say about that? 09:03:26 Natasha: we do cover it to some extent, e.g. to avid SQL injection attacks 09:03:43 q+ 09:04:02 Johannes_Hund: do you see opportunities for standard building blocks 09:04:39 Natasha: trusted modules 09:04:59 s/ome extent, e.g. to avid/ome extent, e.g. the need for logging and the need to avoid/ 09:05:21 ack kaz 09:05:31 Maxime has joined #wot 09:05:54 Andrei has joined #wot 09:06:12 present+ Maxime 09:06:33 Kaz asks about policy issues in respect to IoT security, e.g. for Government regulations on national security 09:06:51 BernadetteLoscio_ has joined #wot 09:07:11 Dom_Guinard: are you monitoring attacks? 09:07:29 Natasha: the questionaires provide some info 09:08:08 The GSMA intelligence service offers some info 09:10:01 Topic: IoT and schema.org 09:10:13 Dan Brickley (Google) presents 09:10:17 Fernando has joined #wot 09:10:52 Dan: I work for Google in London, but today are representing schema.org 09:11:11 He asks for a show of hands on who knows about schema.org (many hands) 09:12:13 Schema.org is a website acting as a dictionary of terms, a collection of schemas used primarily on the public web, but also in email and other contexts 09:12:58 The project began in 2011. It is used by websites for signalling descriptions of the sites to search engiens 09:13:20 s/engiens/engines for smarter search results/ 09:14:03 We started using HTML5 Microdata, and later added support for RDFa and JSON-LD 09:14:10 zkis has joined #wot 09:14:16 The underlying approach is lightweight RDF 09:14:37 Our schemas are very widely used on the web 09:14:52 tens of millions of websites 09:15:54 We expanded the scope in 2013 to cover structured data in email 09:16:02 (HTML email) 09:16:30 This introduced the complexity of dealing with personal data 09:16:59 We found that microdata was then too verbose 09:17:50 Schema.org was founded as a collaboration between Google, Bing and Yahoo, and soon joined by Yandex 09:18:28 We use the W3C Semantic Web Interest Group as our public community 09:18:55 We build upon W3C standards but are not a W3C standards WG 09:19:39 We’re discussing with the W3C Staff about enabling W3C work to normatively reference schema.org schemas 09:20:53 We focus on extensibility and are somewhat relaxed about the formal standards 09:21:36 In particular, we found a need for an order of magnitude more terms than previous work, e.g. the Dublin Core 09:22:30 Andrei has joined #wot 09:23:32 He mentions GS1 as an organization with an extensive classification for food products, e.g. a property describing the firmness of cheese. 09:23:56 Schemas from different organizations have minor differences of spelling and naming. 09:24:06 e.g. colour vs color 09:25:10 We’re now just starting to explore schemas for the IoT 09:25:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:25:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html JonathanJ 09:26:09 Large scale vocabularies will always have some mistakes. We may have to retain these where many websites would be effected. 09:26:35 kazho has joined #wot 09:27:17 One open question is when terms should go into the main schema.org vocabulary and when they should go into domain specific modules 09:27:28 s/main/core/ 09:28:13 There is no hard and fast rule, so we take a pragmatic approach. We being the schema.org steering group 09:28:44 We would like people to use frozen snapshots of our vocabularies. 09:29:21 We now have a position paper on http://iot.webschemas.org 09:29:45 See http://iot.webschemas.org/docs/iot-gettingstarted.html 09:30:52 We want a framework where you can combine domain specific vocabularies with the core schema.org vocabs 09:32:12 The paper includes several example situations where schema.org could offer value 09:32:36 Tomoyuki has joined #wot 09:33:11 dlissfeld has joined #wot 09:33:13 User data portability, Beacons and the description of the physical environment, Smart Assistants, On-device content, Sensors and the description of the physical environment, and Energy Efficiency 09:33:17 Tomoyuki has left #wot 09:33:55 We have a public mailing list and encourage you to join it. 09:34:06 Joerg thanks Dan for his talk 09:36:27 Dave: two questions: one is there a commitment to providing a service on a long term, and second: to attract other industries, what are you plans in respect to governance and the composition of the steering group? 09:38:13 Dan: we’ve had discussions with other companies, and so far have decided against creating a consortium, and will keep going until we see this is creating a problem 09:38:50 Joerg: what makes the IoT different, is there something about machines rather than people as end points? 09:39:26 Dan: for resource constrained devices, we would need to be stricter about the formats for metadata 09:40:13 s/you plans/your plans/ 09:41:12 sam has joined #wot 09:41:40 Dan talks about geospatial relationships that were raised in the spatial data on the web WG, and how he add these into schema.org 09:42:36 Fabien_Gandot: how do you decide how to address changes to schemas? 09:43:09 Dan: We use the SemWeb IG and github issues 09:43:12 ahaller2 has joined #wot 09:44:13 Snapshots provide the flexibility to refer to a given version 09:44:31 Fabien: do you keep statistics on usage? 09:44:39 danbri has joined #wot 09:45:17 Dan: yes 09:45:24 Topic: A year of Web Thing Model: reporting on learnings from the first W3C WoT IG submission 09:45:26 wonsuk has joined #wot 09:45:40 Dom_Guinard (Evrythng) 09:46:55 rrsagent, make minutes 09:46:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html dsr 09:47:42 daisuke has joined #wot 09:51:05 daisuke has left #wot 09:52:55 jungbin has joined #wot 09:56:59 present+ Raphael(EURECOM) 09:57:17 dlissfeld has joined #wot 09:57:52 QingAn has joined #wot 10:01:44 Karen has joined #wot 10:01:46 dsr has joined #wot 10:01:52 we break for coffee 10:02:21 Dom introduces himself. I am the CTO for EVRYTHNG 10:02:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:02:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 10:02:41 We have a WoT platform with some three million customers 10:03:32 Today, I want to talk about the Web Thing Model submission we have with several others to the WoT IG last year 10:03:52 i/A year/[ morning break ]/ 10:03:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:03:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 10:03:56 kinjim has joined #wot 10:04:16 uday has joined #wot 10:04:41 Dom runs through the motivation and background for the submission 10:05:27 mdadas has joined #wot 10:05:27 danbri has joined #wot 10:05:44 Tomoyuki has joined #wot 10:06:35 Andrei has joined #wot 10:06:58 The submisson is at http://www.w3.org/Submission/2015/SUBM-wot-model-20150824/ 10:07:44 This work was produced in association with the EU COMPOSE project on cloud based IoT platforms 10:07:48 jwehrman has joined #wot 10:08:40 We’ve used our approach with the Nest devices for smart homes 10:09:49 Some of the challenges include dealing with faults 10:10:51 We found it important to be crystal clear about the positioning 10:11:19 There are too many competing platforms and standards so this is essential to being heard 10:12:11 We need to show how integration with the Web brings real benefits 10:12:24 olivexu has joined #wot 10:12:46 It is very important to engage with the developer communities 10:13:22 Maxime has joined #wot 10:13:25 HTTP and WebSockets have become widely supported 10:14:08 We need a neutral body for the IoT interoperability layer standards, W3C is well placed for that 10:14:28 Joerg thanks Dom for his presentation. 10:16:26 Joerg: we’re not defining another platform, but rather a means to interoperate across platforms 10:16:56 Dom: there is a need for base constructs which complicates the explanation 10:18:04 Johannes: We start out by accepting the use of existing platforms 10:18:50 We should include integration with EVRYTHNG solutions in future plugfests. 10:19:34 Topic: Introduction to the break out sessions 10:19:35 jeff has joined #wot 10:20:09 junichi-hashimoto has joined #wot 10:20:27 Johannes introduces his breakout on subscriptions. This will take place in room 5A (the room we’re in). 10:21:05 Kajimoto-san introduces his breakout on thing description lifecycle 10:22:35 This will take place in the small room up the stairs just beyond the coffee area next to room 1.10 10:22:50 wonsuk has joined #wot 10:24:05 Kangchan_ has joined #wot 10:27:10 jungbin has joined #wot 10:27:36 Topic: Subscription breakout session 10:27:47 chaired by Johannes Hund (Siemens) 10:29:12 victor_ has joined #wot 10:29:30 Hyunjin has joined #wot 10:30:02 Johannes welcomes everyone here. Today we will continue the discussion on subscriptions that we started at the Beijing F2F and continued in github 10:30:10 I will start with a recap 10:30:53 My aim is to define a uniform abstraction 10:31:13 kinjim has joined #wot 10:31:32 We need to identify the requirements. An example is whether an update is self contained or is a delta of some kind 10:32:21 Another issue is whether it is ok for an update to be dropped or whether we need to guarantee delivery 10:32:55 Are updates sent when values change or are they buffered and sent at a regular interval? 10:33:10 kaz has joined #wot 10:33:14 kaz_ has joined #wot 10:33:18 Johannes displays some use cases 10:34:14 Yet another point is whether the updates need to be logged and there is an access to historic values 10:34:18 ahaller2 has joined #wot 10:34:44 masato has joined #wot 10:35:35 kotakagi_ has joined #wot 10:35:52 He runs through the respective use cases stating whether they use delta encoding, allow data discards, are sent at regular intervals and require a history 10:37:36 Claes has joined #wot 10:41:12 Dave runs the mic around - temporary loss of minute taking - please help by typing into TRC! 10:41:18 s/TRC/IRC/ 10:41:48 jhund has joined #wot 10:42:04 Michael: some features will only be available with particular protocols, this suggests the need for introspection by the application layer 10:42:35 q+ 10:42:46 Dave: we need a means for apps to state their requirements independent of the protocols, and for the platforms to indicate sufficient details for other platforms to communicate interoperably 10:43:48 Johannes recaps a proposal by Michael Koster 10:43:52 cpn has joined #wot 10:43:52 acl zkis 10:43:57 ack zkis 10:44:39 Zoltan (intel): a further challenge is the need for info for data format translation 10:45:21 kaz has joined #wot 10:45:45 kaz_ has joined #wot 10:45:51 and where does the computation needed for that translation take place? 10:46:14 Matthias: perhaps this can be out of scope for this particular breakout session? 10:47:01 Johannes: we need to come up with a model for expressing the info neede 10:47:10 s/neede/needed/ 10:48:24 We should focus on the requirements for the abstract messaging. 10:48:27 q+ 10:48:53 Michael: does the model allow for observing values? 10:48:56 Johannes: yes 10:49:41 q? 10:50:47 We will then need to evaluate this against the use cases and particular protocols 10:50:55 ack taki 10:50:56 ack taki 10:51:37 Taki: sometimes the application is interested in the deltas 10:53:06 Matthias emphasises the need to agree on the abstract requirements 10:53:41 but also the implementation implications 10:54:08 domguinard has joined #wot 10:55:04 McCool notes we should also look at how to efficiently implement "named topics" that separate publisher and subscriber 10:56:03 ahaller2 has joined #wot 10:56:21 McCool notes that some general mechanism for timestamping events is needed... which also implies a mechanism to synchronize or transform clocks 10:57:23 The data stream may include first and second order derivatives, so it depends … 10:58:01 McCool for dx/dt, note that in some cases you do not compute such things from values at different time, but sense them directly 10:58:03 Carsten talks about network latencies and tracking time 10:58:33 for example, might sense position, velocity, and acceleration separately, rather than deriving them from postion over time 10:58:42 Absolutely 10:59:54 I think we need to be clear in distinguishing app level requirements from protocol/encoding metadata that is the concern of platforms 11:00:31 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/subscriptions 11:01:25 Johannes recaps the subscription proposal on github (see above) 11:01:41 cpn_ has joined #wot 11:02:29 q+ on named topics and heavy streams 11:03:01 daisuke has joined #wot 11:03:42 McCool notes that ROS has pub/sub architecture, used in semi-real time system, has situations where we want events to timeout if not delivered 11:04:08 q? 11:04:15 Dave: I think we need to be careful about distinguishing app level requirements, e.g. for timeliness of updates versus metadata for describing whether the platform should use a pub/sub REST protocol 11:05:39 ->http://w3c.github.io/wot/architecture/wot-architecture.html WoT Architecture doc 11:06:40 q+ 11:06:47 Johannes displays the architecture diagram from the architecture document 11:07:21 q? 11:07:37 Dave asks we mean in the at diagram by resource model — is it referring to the model of resources at the application level or the model or resources exposed by say a REST based server? 11:07:59 McCool notes: yes, need to distinguish "what the app wants" from "how it is provided"; good example is "observing a value". Could be done with pub/sub, could be done by polling... 11:09:09 ack McCool 11:09:09 McCool, you wanted to comment on named topics and heavy streams 11:09:40 Matthias and Dave chat about the abstractions. Dave clarifies the we need to describe the intent at the application layer and how this is realised by a particular protocol at the platform layer 11:10:01 Matthias: we need to ground this in the use cases 11:10:22 Michael: what is the process for contributing to this work? 11:10:41 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals proposal folder in github 11:11:12 Matthias: everyone can out a proposal into github, and you can then ask to present this at a teleconference, and ideally to demstrate an implementation, e.g. at the next plugfest 11:11:45 We have some specific issues we should focus in today 11:11:56 q? 11:12:21 s/the at/that/ 11:12:32 ack zki 11:13:39 Zoltan: we have many protocols, we can have apps provide hints and enable apps to see introspect how they have been fulfilled. 11:14:18 we need to ground this in the use cases 11:14:21 Michael notes some topics I would like to see proposals for: timestamping; named topics; latched events; optional feature negotiation (that could be at a different level since it applies to other things as well as subscriptions) 11:18:09 Johannes: let’s start from the list of characteristics I showed earlier and add new ones 11:19:03 Michael: I would like to add some further things to cover: timestamping, latched events and optional features 11:19:43 s/timestamping/timestamping, named topics/ 11:20:16 Hyunjin_ has joined #wot 11:22:07 McCool notes forgot "heavy streams" like video... 11:25:16 Matthias: we want to use URIs for resources as a means to handle app level subscription requests (e.g. for events) 11:25:54 jwehrman has joined #wot 11:26:07 Dave: The meaning of the resource model is not that clear 11:26:46 McCool notes that "named topics" perhaps can be managed by treating subscriptions/topics like named resources 11:26:56 but we need a detailed concrete proposal 11:28:11 Dave asks Matthias whether the resource model he is talking about, the model exposed to applications for something more about the models used at the REST level? 11:28:26 s/for/or/ 11:29:15 s/me/my 11:30:09 Matthias talks about URIs for resources 11:31:47 Johannes: the resource model is a platform level abstraction isn’t exposed to applications 11:32:04 s/abstraction/abstraction and/ 11:32:12 rrsagent, make minutes 11:32:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html dsr 11:33:02 Johannes: we’ve found that an explicit resource model is valuable for simplifying bindings to REST protocols. 11:33:20 Some discussion about OAuth and security considerations 11:34:57 Johannes asks for people to curate particular topics 11:35:08 Michael volunteers for the topics he proposed 11:35:30 Matthias we need to set some expectations on timeline and goals 11:37:32 kotakagi has joined #wot 11:38:20 rrsagent, make minutes 11:38:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html dsr 11:39:29 present- 11:43:07 danbri has joined #wot 11:45:37 danbri has joined #wot 12:00:50 jungbin has joined #wot 12:05:14 sam has joined #wot 12:07:53 dlissfeld has joined #wot 12:08:03 ahaller2 has joined #wot 12:12:34 Tomoyuki has joined #wot 12:23:23 barryleiba has joined #wot 12:26:50 kinjim has joined #wot 12:28:13 jungbin has joined #wot 12:29:18 Karen has joined #wot 12:31:50 jungbin has joined #wot 12:33:56 uday has joined #wot 12:34:08 kaz has joined #wot 12:36:19 masato has joined #wot 12:37:54 topic: Intro for afternoon breakouts 12:38:02 victor: explains the Hydra breakout 12:38:12 johannes: explains the scripting API breakout 12:38:22 joerg: scripting API here at 5A 12:38:53 martin has joined #wot 12:39:06 ... Hydra at the space next to 1.10 12:39:21 johannes: IRC channel for this room is #wot 12:39:36 ... Hydra uses #wot-td 12:39:42 rrsagent,draft minutes 12:39:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:40:50 rrware has joined #wot 12:41:23 ahaller2 has joined #wot 12:41:39 hjlee has joined #wot 12:41:48 kotakagi has joined #wot 12:41:58 kinjim has joined #wot 12:41:59 TOPIC: Scripting API Follow-up 12:42:17 taki has joined #wot 12:42:18 JH: see issues on Github https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue%20is%3Aopen%20%5BScripting%5D 12:42:25 dsr has joined #wot 12:42:34 JH: Nimura-san has further feedback 12:42:36 zkis has joined #wot 12:42:50 ... more developer feedback ? 12:42:58 ... none so far 12:43:24 JH: recaps API description of current practices document 12:43:30 jwehrman has joined #wot 12:43:52 McCool has joined #wot 12:43:53 cabo has joined #wot 12:43:59 present+ 12:44:07 yingying has joined #wot 12:44:08 daisuke has joined #wot 12:44:15 --> http://w3c.github.io/wot/current-practices/wot-practices.html#scripting-api 12:44:25 Claes has joined #wot 12:44:37 JH: API root object 12:44:49 mmiya has joined #wot 12:44:49 ... allows to create composed thing or exposed thing 12:45:05 yingying_ has joined #wot 12:45:21 ... so far we did have 2 PlugFests with API support 12:45:30 ... based on 2 different teams 12:45:49 ... got feedback 12:46:01 jungbin has joined #wot 12:46:03 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #wot 12:46:21 ... details such as actions without parameters 12:46:24 mdadas has joined #wot 12:46:49 ahaller2 has joined #wot 12:46:51 JH: any feedback is welcome... please open github issue 12:46:53 ryuichi_ has joined #wot 12:47:05 ... also add "tag" on GH 12:47:38 JH: Would like to ask Nimura-san for his feedback 12:47:40 wonsuk has joined #wot 12:47:44 scribe: dape 12:48:14 Nimura: prepared slides... 12:48:45 jhund has joined #wot 12:48:48 ... based on Bejiing meeting I think we need modifications 12:49:13 McCool notes got one additional comment at demo yesterday on "create from name" which seemed strange; should creation always need a TD? 12:49:23 kaz has joined #wot 12:49:28 1. expose @type 12:49:44 ... in Exposed thing 12:50:27 2. w.r.t. property, getProperty without polling 12:51:31 JH: Thanks Nimura-san 12:51:32 circ-user-M6e3l has joined #wot 12:52:11 ... will create issue for @type comment 12:52:40 ... think we also need allowing to set context... otherwise @type is not useful 12:53:23 McCool: "create for name" alone seems strange... 12:53:37 Yam has joined #wot 12:53:37 JH: There is the notion of creating a blanc thing 12:53:51 JonathanJ has joined #wot 12:53:54 ... then you can add properties, actions et cetera 12:54:24 ... allows dynamic things happening 12:55:12 ... still we discussed whether it makes sense to have a split between "static" and "dynamic" capabilities 12:56:08 JH: back to @type discussion 12:56:16 maybe have a concept of "freezing" properties 12:56:23 eg can create, modify, then freeze 12:56:43 ... might be more complex ... @type is allowed for properties, actions also 12:57:01 masato has joined #wot 12:57:13 generically useful, as frozen resources can be freely cached, etc 12:57:30 JH: Second issue from Nimura-san was about polling 12:58:10 Kangchan has joined #wot 12:58:20 ... "onGetProperty" is needed... kick in handler and then return result 12:58:30 masato has joined #wot 12:58:56 ... do we need to block before returning 12:59:04 Nimura: yes 12:59:22 JH: means we allow only one handler... 13:01:01 XX: which framework is used for the implementations? 13:01:11 junichi has joined #wot 13:01:20 JH: runtime in Java with Nashorn 13:02:06 s/XX/wonsuk 13:02:55 rrsagent, make minutes 13:02:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html yingying_ 13:02:57 raphael has joined #wot 13:05:23 JH: Lets go back to issues, https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue%20is%3Aopen%20%5BScripting%5D 13:05:35 .. about 10 are open 13:05:59 ... eg., https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/233 13:06:35 .. need to hook-in event handler 13:07:10 ... one solution could be adding it to discovery 13:08:15 McCool: daemon interface should be standardized 13:09:09 JH: we have methods to discovery things 13:09:46 ... in exposed things we should be able to react on certain actions 13:10:48 q? 13:11:11 McCool: in use-cases of migrating serviants daemon interface should be standardized 13:11:41 ... also examples like code migrations 13:12:19 JH: propose having written examples to avoid confusions 13:12:52 JH: we have local discovery 13:13:21 using local discovery makes sense for this case, where "context" is local computing device 13:13:57 however, I also think each compute node needs a special servient, the "servient-manager" (daemon, etc) that "manages" other servients 13:14:02 JH: next issue is https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/234 13:14:05 starting them, stopping them, etc. 13:14:18 ... getting TD from Object 13:14:23 anyhow... I need to check if that is already part of the proposal or not 13:14:28 table it for now 13:14:42 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/234 13:14:44 e.g., with semantic annotations of TD 13:15:13 ... propose adding function like getThingDescription() 13:15:29 McCool: sync or async method? 13:15:42 JH: in this case it does not really matter 13:16:09 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/235 13:16:10 JH: next is https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/235 13:16:53 ... proposal from Sensor API WG ... getting closer to their interface 13:17:14 ... wonder how portable EventTarget is... 13:17:26 ... don't really have an answer 13:17:40 Zoltan: We did implement this 13:17:52 ... target will remain in browser 13:18:39 ... feasible to go around this issue 13:19:05 McCool: would aim for server-side script environments 13:19:15 -> https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-eventtarget 13:19:31 JH: would have choice target or emitter? 13:20:07 Zoltan: emitter can be done in browsers.. but not the way browsers usually do 13:21:48 JH: what is the right way forward? 13:22:14 McCool: suggest doing it in an abstract way.. fear that parts will be obsolete 13:22:22 mdadas has joined #wot 13:23:09 Zoltan: would not spend to much time on that now... 13:23:33 JH: Shall we add abstraction level? 13:23:56 olivexu has joined #wot 13:24:13 McCool: maybe having both (emitter and target)? Horrible? 13:24:43 Zoltan: promises and watchers ... and table it for now 13:24:46 JH: makes sense 13:25:12 JH: next issue, https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/236 13:25:34 ... API could be used in C and others as well 13:26:13 ... add hints how to do stuff in dedicated language 13:26:35 McCool: guideline in safety critical C... 13:26:36 zkis has joined #wot 13:26:48 ... kills callback functions 13:28:25 JH: think is difficult to handle .... in our scope 13:29:06 McCool: suggest having language independent hints: IF your language supports X do it that way.. 13:29:17 JH: very good point 13:29:41 JH: next issue, https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/237 13:30:02 ... about adding query parameters ... 13:30:53 McCool: Wonder what we should define as parameter? 13:31:22 JH: would not go into those details.. just offerings passing parameters 13:31:58 danbri has joined #wot 13:34:27 cpn_ has joined #wot 13:34:41 ... open questions: how to map to APIs and other protocols 13:35:11 Zoltan: suggest looking at actual candidates 13:35:28 McCool: also looking at use-cases 13:35:55 JH: Yes, let's look at actual use-cases 13:36:43 Zoltan: also maybe doing a poll in IG, what are the preferred languages 13:37:28 JH: can try... not sure if it changes a lot 13:38:02 JH: Next is https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/238 13:38:25 .. eg. consume thing on different thing.. interface changes 13:38:31 ... need to be notified 13:38:44 ... actions may not longer be available 13:39:15 ... had call with SCXML... 13:39:47 .... having state machine ... code is hooked up only 13:40:20 JH: next issue is https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/240 13:40:22 danbri has joined #wot 13:41:00 ... discovery should return callback (instead of promise) 13:41:34 Zoltan: cannot cancel discovery 13:42:07 ... client can have timeout 13:42:44 need a promise model that allows multiple updates 13:43:01 JH: looking for a solution that works for on-going discovery and one-shot use-cases 13:44:45 JH: Have still a long list of open issues 13:44:57 ... please provide feedback 13:45:14 ... can discuss it at one of our web-confs 13:45:31 ... also open new issues 13:46:48 Zoltan: propose adding "watcher" to github issues to inform mailinglist 13:47:28 https://help.github.com/articles/managing-notification-emails-for-organizations/ 13:47:38 McCool: what is the deadline for freezing updates.. Christmas was mentioned? 13:47:54 Joerg: will discuss that later 13:48:09 ... also encouraging new implementations... 13:48:13 q? 13:48:20 ... so far we have 2 implementations 13:49:21 McCool: think we need open node.js implementation 13:50:04 Zoltan: plan to do an implementation (first Sensor API and then WoT) 13:50:16 ... mainly scripting .. not TD 13:50:21 ph has joined #wot 13:51:22 JH: will integrate issues raised today in issues 13:51:50 ... target Christmas to resolve them 13:52:11 ... thanks a lot for feedback 13:52:35 Joerg: continue half past 3 13:52:54 kinjim has joined #wot 13:53:32 wonsuk has joined #wot 14:05:29 martin has left #wot 14:06:15 Karen has joined #wot 14:07:06 raphael has joined #wot 14:10:56 cabo has joined #wot 14:14:45 danbri has joined #wot 14:17:23 kinjim has joined #wot 14:25:19 mdadas has joined #wot 14:27:43 ying_ying has joined #wot 14:28:21 mdadas has left #wot 14:30:03 katsu has joined #wot 14:31:44 uday has joined #wot 14:33:09 jwehrman has joined #wot 14:33:46 kaz has joined #wot 14:33:59 [ afternoon break ] 14:34:16 mmiya has joined #wot 14:34:33 topic: Work organization 14:34:37 joerg: ToC 14:34:41 ... WoT WG Charter 14:34:49 ryuichi has joined #wot 14:35:12 ... Report from the Comm TF 14:35:27 ... Open Tasks: security&privacy, implementations, liaisons 14:35:30 dsr has joined #wot 14:35:30 McCool has joined #wot 14:35:59 ... WoT logo 14:36:11 ... draft roadmap of PlugFest prep 14:36:20 ... Meeting Logistics 14:36:34 ... anything to be added? 14:36:37 (none) 14:36:50 i/Work organization/scribenick: kaz/ 14:37:05 joerg: let's talk about the WG Charter topic 14:37:15 ... (shows the roadmap) 14:37:29 ->https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Roadmap 14:37:53 s/Roadmap/Roadmap WG roadmap/ 14:37:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:37:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:38:01 junichi has joined #wot 14:38:32 joerg: discussion about co-Chairs 14:39:39 olivexu has joined #wot 14:39:55 ... got nomination for the candidate co-Chairs 14:40:05 masato has joined #wot 14:40:30 ... Matthias, Kajimoto-san and Michael McCool as the proposed co-Chairs 14:40:54 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/wot-wg-charter.html proposed WG Charter 14:41:35 joerg: IG co-Chairs: Yongjing and Matthias 14:42:13 ... IG deliverables: use cases, architecture, landscape and current practice 14:42:59 Tomoyuki has joined #wot 14:44:05 ... (mentions expectations for the new proposed co-Chairs) 14:45:29 ningxinhu has joined #wot 14:45:45 ahaller2 has joined #wot 14:45:57 sam has joined #wot 14:46:08 q+ 14:46:22 ... any comments? 14:48:00 uday: work flow and collaboration between the IG and the WG? 14:48:34 scribe: ying_ying 14:48:58 joerg: my understanding is that identifying building blocks in the IG. 14:49:27 ...1.5 years ago we started to identify the building blocks after the workshop in 2014. 14:49:52 ryuichi0 has joined #wot 14:50:12 ...we identified those four. Do we think we cover the web of thing well? 14:50:25 i/my understanding/scribenick: ying_ying/ 14:51:25 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/07/wot-ig-charter.html updated IG Charter 14:51:27 ...IG will work on identify new things, plugfest. WG will work on development of the spec. 14:51:29 Fernando has joined #wot 14:51:47 s/identify/identifying/ 14:51:58 q? 14:52:00 s/spec/specs/ 14:52:07 ...any further questions? 14:52:14 q- 14:52:20 q+ 14:52:35 dsr: first we need to make the WG charter on-going. 14:52:51 i|any further|-> https://www.w3.org/2016/07/wot-ig-2016-relationship.png relationship between the IG and the WG| 14:53:23 ...we need to make member companies involved. In case there's comment to change the charter we need to bring back to the group for discussion. 14:53:39 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/wotwg2016/results AC Review results (Member-only) 14:54:11 kaz: please contact your AC Reps and ask them to respond (positively :) 14:54:29 joerg: reviewing the rechartering of IG is like the exercise of reviewing the WG charter for AC. 14:54:39 s/please/we've got 7 supports so far. please/ 14:55:19 ...for the new chairs it's opportunities to talk with the member companies to see their expectations. Please use this month to outreach for the member company AC. 14:55:47 ...appreciate the better setup of co-chairs. Thanks all the volunteers. 14:56:56 ...we had several deliverables. for the landscape document, previous stakeholder Suomya changed focus to other things so that we need to find another volunteer. 14:57:54 ...yesterday's PlugFest/Demo was good introduction to other w3c members. Matthias has made the report on the breakout report session. 14:58:51 Topic: Communication&Collaboration TF Report 14:58:52 wonsuk has joined #wot 14:59:42 joerg: IG blog: matthias has made a blog for Beijing F2F meeting. Will continue the work on blog. 14:59:49 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/ IG Blog 15:00:32 ...Call for implementation: we got quite a lot of response. This is the first point to collect all of them into wiki. 15:00:32 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Implementations List of existing implementations 15:01:02 zkis has joined #wot 15:01:49 ...matthias could you please give some summary of the PlugFest? 15:02:17 matthias: there are not many scripting. look forward more. 15:02:42 ...realizing what is in proposals would be nice. 15:03:16 ...is these be benchmark for implementations? 15:03:48 ...we just have a list of implementation but really don't what they are doing. Is there any opinion on this? 15:04:22 ...the overall goal is to promote what we are doing to a broader communities. 15:04:48 ...what can we to help others to join in without coming to the F2F meeting? 15:05:31 Dominique: WoT label, implementation server @@1? 15:06:00 ...this is the basic blocks that should be followed. 15:06:31 matthias: we released the current practice document for Beijing F2F and after that we make it to a living doc again. 15:07:00 ...we will add new things. We need to make it more valuable for implementers. 15:07:07 ...OK let's do that. 15:08:25 joerg: first step is to find the implementations. next step is to encourage the implementations to join our PlugFest. 15:08:33 sebastian has joined #wot 15:09:39 matthias: not only open source but also internal/commercial implementations are appreciated. 15:10:37 ph: you need to prepare for what the WG will do. 15:11:01 McCool: agree. 15:11:30 dsr: @2 15:12:47 s/@2/be more explicit on our implementation/ 15:12:49 s/@2/Building upon what Dom said, I believe we should be more explicit, e.g. asking for implementations of the Current Practices, and a separate category for ideas around the Web of Things as input to the IG’s discussions/ 15:13:11 kinoshita has joined #wot 15:13:21 s/be more explicit on our implementation/Building upon what Dom said, I believe we should be more explicit, e.g. asking for implementations of the Current Practices, and a separate category for ideas around the Web of Things as input to the IG’s discussions/ 15:13:30 s/be more explicit on our implementation/be more explicit on our implementation/Building upon what Dom said, I believe we should be more explicit, e.g. asking for implementations of the Current Practices, and a separate category for ideas around the Web of Things as input to the IG’s discussions/ 15:13:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-wot-minutes.html kaz