07:14:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
07:14:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-coga-irc
07:14:17 <Lisa_Seeman> trackbot, start meeting
07:14:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 389
07:14:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2642
07:14:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
07:14:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
07:14:22 <trackbot> Date: 22 September 2016
07:14:27 <Lisa_Seeman> present+ lisa
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07:40:40 <Lisa_Seeman> log form tuesday at  https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-coga-minutes.
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08:02:44 <Lisa_Seeman> topic: writing SC
08:05:19 <Lisa_Seeman> topic: roadmap
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08:05:56 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html
08:06:05 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Start with table of user needs. URL above.
08:06:22 <Lisa_Seeman> table 3
08:07:21 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Looked, Monday, at what we had for Table 3 success criteria.
08:10:05 <JohnRochford> JohnK: People with memory issues may have trouble with sign posts.
08:10:21 <Lisa_Seeman> https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/
08:10:57 <JohnRochford> Lisa: There are two cases that need to be handled.
08:11:17 <JohnRochford> Lisa: 1 is semantics.
08:11:59 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/rewroded%20sc%203.html
08:12:01 <JohnRochford> Lisa: The other is the different steps, e.g., current, done, pending.
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08:14:18 <JohnRochford> Lisa: We have COGA explain. Do we need other context-sensitive help?
08:17:01 <JohnRochford> Lisa: There are 3 requirements: more info, extra help, and human help.
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08:18:14 <JohnRochford> Lisa: You can add or identify help types even per page.
08:18:51 <JohnRochford> Lisa: We should add another help type: context sensitive.
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08:24:32 <JohnRochford> Lisa: We are going over the help criteria to be sure we have what we need.
08:25:03 <JohnRochford> JohnK: Do we need another help type, such as a URI?
08:26:08 <JohnRochford> MikeC: A URI might lead someone to a closed-help system.
08:26:39 <JohnRochford> JohnK: A person with memory or processing issues may be overwhelmed.
08:27:52 <JohnRochford> JohnK: Cognitive load may have to be managed, such as a warning that something will take 20 minutes.
08:29:02 <JohnRochford> JohnK: Do we say "people with memory and cognitive issues", or "people with cognitive disabilities"?
08:29:21 <JohnRochford> Lisa: The latter.
08:30:05 <JohnRochford> "MikeC" above is actually "MikeP".
08:34:06 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Making an interface accessible to someone in an emerging market, who is logging on for the first time, may be the same/similar to a person with an intellectual disability.
08:34:59 <JohnRochford> MikeP: It may be that people with no online experience need extra help/support.
08:36:16 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Ideas for renaming "COGA help"?
08:37:59 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Perhaps "Beginner Help" at least for now.
08:44:46 <JohnRochford> Lisa: People assume others know how to do things, but they may not. And that can include people with a high IQ.
08:45:45 <JohnRochford> MikeP: I don't think there is a need to call out specific disabilities. (This is a response to a question from JohnR.)
08:46:19 <JohnRochford> specific disabilities corrected to specific cognitive disabilities
08:47:44 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Beginner COGA can refer to people with an intellectual disability.
08:48:21 <JohnRochford> JohnK: This applies to people who are aging.
08:49:59 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Do we agree the semantics for help have been properly addressed?
08:50:26 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html
08:50:29 <JohnRochford> Lisa: With the addition of "context sensitive" and "beginner".
08:51:00 <Lisa_Seeman> https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/#explain-and-feedback
08:54:06 <JohnRochford> Neil: I can now bring in my team to help.
08:55:24 <JohnRochford> Neil: I need to get Jim (a member of Neil's team) to help.
08:57:06 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
08:57:32 <JohnRochford> Lisa: Sharron Rush has offered to write up examples for our success criteria.
08:58:42 <JohnRochford> Neil, it's good to hear your voice on our call.
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09:00:02 <JohnRochford> Okay folks, I must go.
09:00:48 <Lisa_Seeman> topic sc
09:01:35 <kirkwood_> hello
09:01:38 <Lisa_Seeman> scribe kirkwood_
09:02:43 <kirkwood_> Lisa: we need to state use case as well as we can, and the testability, human or machine
09:03:11 <kirkwood_> Lisa: can put bullet points of examples, need to justify wether we are calling it A or AA
09:03:26 <kirkwood_> Lisa: clear language A for labels and menu items
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09:09:43 <kirkwood_> Lisa: gave example of 'mode' to turn air conditioner or heat on and off could be dangerous situation for an aging or cognitive disability. In future AI may handle some things
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09:10:25 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html
09:12:33 <kirkwood_> on to table 3: provide feed back, undo, understandable language. We have made some changes to 3.3.4 and 3.3.6. What we haven't done is said "it should be reassuring" "is that an issue"
09:15:59 <kirkwood_> Mike The concern is context, "unduly causing alarm" "we don't want to panic" n
09:16:22 <kirkwood_> Lisa: we want it not to be unnecessarily discouraging
09:19:24 <kirkwood_> Lisa: what is the context. We have provide extra help, context sensitive help there is a level 3 AA saying requiring beginner help. Beginning is that AA A
09:20:58 <kirkwood_> Lisa: can we say provde beginner help for forms and critical service as single A
09:21:22 <kirkwood_> Lisa: limiting scope to critical services maybe it can A
09:21:50 <kirkwood_> Mike: I would tend to agree
09:22:46 <kirkwood_> Lisa: we could say provide human help for critical services
09:23:24 <kirkwood_> Mike: I personally think it would be easier to do it.
09:24:39 <kirkwood_> Lisa: should we provide beginner help to get to human help?
09:25:17 <Lisa_Seeman> A - provide begginer help or easy access to humen help on forms and interactive controls for critcal services 'AA - provide begginer help and easy access to humen help on forms and interactive controls for critcal services '
09:27:30 <kirkwood_> Lisa: in the rewording of the language lets make sure that you are not required to learn new languages to operate the tool
09:29:20 <Lisa_Seeman> This includes not using abbreviations and terms unless they are the common form to refer to the concept for beginers .
09:29:27 <kirkwood_> Lisa: instead of clear and simple. Debating other words
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09:30:30 <Lisa_Seeman> This includes not using abbreviations words and phrases unless they are the common form to refer to the concept for beginners.
09:31:14 <neilmilliken> this may be difficult due national differences
09:31:32 <neilmilliken> UK boot US trunk
09:31:40 <neilmilliken> both commont terms
09:34:17 <Lisa_Seeman> Do not require the user to learn new terms or meaning for terms.
09:36:13 <kirkwood_> limited to UI
09:37:56 <kirkwood_> phone dropped calling back in
09:38:16 <Mike_Pluke> I've lost audio - but I still see Me and "Lisa" logged into Webex - but there was a dropout sound prior to losing audio. Has the audio bridge in the meeting logged itself out?
09:39:07 <Mike_Pluke> I'm remaining logged in to Webex
09:39:20 <kirkwood_> no calling bridge will be back
09:39:34 <kirkwood_> EVeryone should call back in
09:40:08 <kirkwood_> Its back on.
09:40:53 <Lisa_Seeman> having a 20 minet brake. will be back at 11(our time)
09:41:35 <Mike_Pluke> I'm back in - will be there at 11
10:07:54 <Lisa_Seeman> topic SC
10:12:05 <kirkwood_>  retuned from break
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10:17:09 <kirkwood_> Mike: thers all the work that has been don in the ICT Task force, aim o fgetting language that would be applicable if you did  try to apply WCAG to general software
10:17:42 <kirkwood_> Mike: says the wording may already be in there
10:17:49 <Lisa_Seeman> Understandable language: Do require the user to use unusale language and provide clear language in headings, important information and important functions that includes:
10:17:53 <kirkwood_> Mike: I will look at
10:19:09 <kirkwood_> Lisa: could you put it IRC channel?
10:20:20 <Mike_Pluke> The WCAG2ICT Task Force Note is at https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/
10:20:47 <kirkwood_> LS: lets how to make a good success criteria
10:46:20 <Mike_Pluke> First draft new SC wording: Successfully completing a step in a process should not depend on a user memorizing or otherwise mentally processing information presented during that, or an earlier, step.
10:47:04 <Mike_Pluke> My email Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com
11:00:18 <Lisa_Seeman> exacept if the proessing and memrisation  an essential part of the main task or function  of the content.
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11:09:40 <Mike_Pluke> Successfully completing a step in a process should not solely depend on a user memorizing or otherwise mentally processing information presented during that, or an earlier, step.
11:09:56 <kirkwood_> Lisa: talking about short menus and wether to give the talking to the operator option
11:17:28 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016#ARIA_WG_Meeting_at_TPAC_2016
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12:40:54 <Lisa_Seeman> aria are dialing in now
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14:23:57 <Mike_Pluke> Hi Lisa, Neil, Jim and I are on the Webex
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14:32:49 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/SC_todo_list
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14:36:38 <Jim> Jim has joined #coga
14:36:43 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/SC_todo_list
14:42:29 <ddahl> lisa: SC need to be clear and testable and the motivation has to be clear
14:42:53 <ddahl> ...benefits, evidence, why it's in at conformance level A
14:46:03 <ddahl> ...A is extremely important, anywhere should required, AA is required less often and AAA is seldom required (see WCAG spec for specifics)
14:46:41 <ddahl> trackbot, format minutes
14:46:41 <trackbot> Sorry, ddahl, I don't understand 'trackbot, format minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
14:46:43 <Lisa_Seeman> taking you though https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/SC_todo_list
14:46:48 <ddahl> rrsagent, format minutes
14:46:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-coga-minutes.html ddahl
14:47:00 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #COGA
14:48:02 <Lisa_Seeman>  https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html
14:48:14 <Lisa_Seeman> at https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/rewroded%20sc%203.html
14:48:21 <ddahl> follow instructions at https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/SC_todo_list
14:49:55 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html#instructions
14:50:02 <Lisa_Seeman> (debies)
14:51:10 <Lisa_Seeman> Provided content and information that help users understand the content
14:52:16 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/rewroded%20sc%203.html
14:57:55 <Lisa_Seeman>  https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/template.html
14:59:13 <ddahl> ... instructions are to copy the template and then copy the new text into the template
14:59:39 <ddahl> ...clear language 1 and clear language 2 and fill in
15:00:46 <ddahl> ...create a new document based on the template
15:01:22 <ddahl> lisa: turning to Jim's SC on providing help
15:16:55 <Lisa_Seeman> Dialog step completion
15:16:56 <Lisa_Seeman> Successfully completing a step in a user-interaction dialog does not depend on a user memorizing or otherwise mentally processing information presented during that, or an earlier, step.
15:16:58 <Lisa_Seeman> Exception: This success criterion does not apply if memorizing or otherwise mentally processing information is the primary purpose of the dialog step (e.g. a step in a game which deliberately tests the player’s memory skills).
15:21:32 <ddahl> mike: every IVR system would fail this SC
15:22:44 <ddahl> lisa: the choices should be clear enough so that you can pick the one you hear
15:22:52 <ddahl> mike: but that is rare
15:24:02 <ddahl> mike: techniques -- make sure system maps one to one to options so user can pick, make human help available or @@
16:31:19 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/
16:33:44 <Mike_Pluke> You just lost your Webex connection.
16:33:55 <Lisa_Seeman> yes
16:33:57 <Lisa_Seeman> we did
16:34:07 <Mike_Pluke> Probably the world telling us "time is up"
16:34:53 <Lisa_Seeman> i think so, do u want me to try nand redial?
16:35:36 <Mike_Pluke> If you can find an effective  way to link to the Web Authentication stuff I have no objection.
16:35:59 <Mike_Pluke> I think that I probably need to go now anyway - so bye for now.
16:36:24 <Mike_Pluke> Nothing scheduled for tomorrow - correct?
16:36:39 <Lisa_Seeman> ok
16:36:42 <Lisa_Seeman> notheing
16:36:45 <Lisa_Seeman> thanks so much
16:37:15 <Lisa_Seeman> can u look at the speck and see if you are comfortable putting it back in
16:38:15 <Mike_Pluke> "Putting it back in" implies it was in before. I don't understand that.
16:38:55 <Lisa_Seeman> i need to find it
16:39:02 <Lisa_Seeman> it was a proposal
16:40:07 <Mike_Pluke> Let me know by email - I'll keep an eye out this evening.
16:42:17 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, make logs public
16:42:28 <Lisa_Seeman>  rrsagent, create minutes
16:42:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/22-coga-minutes.html Lisa_Seeman
16:43:22 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, please part
16:43:27 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, please part
16:43:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items