IRC log of respimg on 2016-09-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-irc
10:08:15 [nigel]
Present+ nigel
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10:08:26 [zcorpan]
Simon Pieters, Opera
10:08:54 [gregwhitworth]
gregwhitworth, Microsoft
10:08:55 [yoav]
Yoav Weiss, Akamai
10:09:00 [nigel]
scribenick: nigel
10:09:03 [dsinger]
…is David Singer (Apple)
10:09:03 [cyril]
Cyril Concolato, Telecom ParisTech & GPAC
10:09:04 [jihye]
Jihye Hong, LG elec.
10:09:05 [nigel]
nigel: Nigel Megitt, BBC
10:10:01 [Joshue108]
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10:10:49 [nigel]
yoav: Responsive Images is something we worked on and implemented - it's awesome.
10:11:01 [nigel]
... but we still see people advocating fixed width and height in the HTML because the browser
10:11:11 [SteveZ]
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10:11:14 [nigel]
... does not know the image's aspect ratio and height for performing layout unless the authors
10:11:26 [nigel]
... perform hacks to get the aspect ratio in place. So this is a problem that needs solving that we want
10:11:40 [nigel]
... to discuss. We have some emails this morning on the responsive images mailing lists proposing
10:11:55 [nigel]
... various declarative markup ways to do that; there are also proposals for a CSS based solution to replace
10:12:06 [nigel]
... the existing hacks to specify aspect ratio for images and other elements. Discuss.
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10:12:12 [zcorpan]
example in the spec for how to solve this issue with css today, https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#introduction-3:art-direction-3
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10:12:48 [nigel]
zcorpan: This works - it's annoying to have to use CSS I guess, and you have to specify both width and height
10:12:52 [nigel]
... for each break point in the CSS>
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s/>/.
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10:13:40 [nikos]
present+ nikos
10:13:55 [jkt]
present+ jkt
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10:16:19 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: I would prefer not to propagate layout based thing inside HTML, primarily because there
10:16:29 [nigel]
... are other reasons to specify aspect ratio than images.
10:16:36 [kasar]
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10:16:36 [nigel]
... I would like to see it in CSS.
10:16:52 [nigel]
... I loved seeing a spec for this and also that you guys are tackling sizes.
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10:17:21 [nigel]
... To me defining another aspect ratio is an additional constraint. I would prefer to set a width+height or
10:17:44 [nigel]
... a width or a height, and set aspect ratio = true|false and use max/min constraints to allow flex
10:18:04 [nigel]
... I'm not a huge fan of specifying an aspect ratio specifically.
10:19:26 [nigel]
jkt: The reason for adding sizes to the CSS spec was so that you could clearly define either size being absent
10:19:50 [gregwhitworth]
https://jonathankingston.github.io/logical-sizing-properties/#propdef-aspect-ratio
10:19:51 [nigel]
... e.g. missing height or width and that would be calculated from the aspect ratio
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10:20:01 [nigel]
s/.../jkt:
10:20:26 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: So you could technically still have a missing height or width without having the sizes shorthand
10:21:25 [nigel]
yoav: The point is that people are recommending fixed width and height to avoid reflows while the page is loading.
10:21:44 [nigel]
... They're not using image also so that's a particular case. I want people to be able to define images
10:22:00 [nigel]
... with aspect ratios so that they won't reflow when the image reloads - bouncing around is awful on mobile.
10:22:16 [nigel]
... You could say that css aspect ratio is enough, but still people advocate html width and height because
10:22:34 [nigel]
... it is easy to verify. I'm in favour of a CSS based proposal but we may need an equivalent in markup
10:22:38 [nigel]
... as an alternative to width and height.
10:22:42 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: That feels redundant.
10:22:47 [nigel]
yoav: It is in a way
10:23:11 [nigel]
dbaron: I wonder if we want something that does what HTML height and width were perhaps originally intended
10:23:30 [nigel]
... to do, which is indicate the expected image size but not override if the height and width are actually wrong.
10:23:45 [nigel]
... Also if you set one of the height and width properties then you only scale in one dimension rather than
10:23:53 [nigel]
... in both according to the aspect ratio.
10:24:12 [zcorpan]
inside the srcset microsyntax
10:26:06 [dbaron]
saying that perhaps we could have something (maybe inside the srcset microsyntax, ugh), that could describe the intrinsice width/height/aspect-ratio of the resource being pointed to, but only be used while the image is loading, and not override the resource nor set any CSS properties
10:26:08 [dsinger]
q+ to talk about measurements, and about resolution
10:26:21 [nigel]
yoav: Currently it only sets width...
10:26:30 [nigel]
zcorpan: ... but it has no effect until the image is loaded.
10:26:54 [nigel]
yoav: I guess with CSS it would also be applicable to non-image elements, which would be good enough from a loading perspective.
10:28:04 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: Setting dimensions of a box is usually CSS's job, that's why I want to do it there.
10:28:08 [Joshue108]
present+ Joshue108
10:28:19 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: Then we also get the benefits of doing it on other elements.
10:28:29 [nigel]
... It would be worth seeing a proposal on the html side also.
10:28:37 [nigel]
... The main use case is to see where these are being used.
10:29:03 [nigel]
... I know there are more use cases to understand not just in mobile.
10:29:30 [dsinger]
q?
10:29:42 [cyril]
q+
10:29:45 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: I'd like to set some actions.
10:30:16 [nigel]
ack dsinger
10:30:16 [Zakim]
dsinger, you wanted to talk about measurements, and about resolution
10:30:37 [nigel]
dsinger: It's rare to want non isotropic scaling of images so it does seem to make sense to be able to specify
10:30:43 [nigel]
... either height or width but not both.
10:31:00 [nigel]
... I would dispute that a pixel count is a visual size. All screens are not 72dpi anymore.
10:31:15 [nigel]
... I'm not comfortable with the idea that pixel counts indicate actual size.
10:31:38 [nigel]
yoav: The srcset sizes syntax in html tackles that and allows the browser to use the density of the entity as
10:31:39 [zcorpan]
q?
10:31:50 [nigel]
yoav: well as the dimensions and take both into account.
10:32:07 [nigel]
... The aspect ratio part is not necessarily tightly related to intrinsic dimensions.
10:32:26 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: That said if it does have an intrinsic aspect ratio then it should be used.
10:32:39 [nigel]
... you need to decide whether to care about that and then meet height or width constraints.
10:32:51 [nigel]
... We already have this problem with video and players.
10:33:03 [nigel]
ack cyril
10:33:19 [nigel]
cyril: I agree that it would be good to preserve aspect ratio of divs and other things not just images. But
10:33:39 [nigel]
... I understood the responsive images solutions were in HTML so that CSS is not needed to make requests,
10:33:45 [nigel]
... so how does it work if you solve it in CSS.
10:33:58 [nigel]
yoav: The responsive images syntax allows the width of the resource to be defined then you don't need the
10:34:03 [jkt]
https://jonathankingston.github.io/logical-sizing-properties/demo/ << is a demo of the above proposal, if anyone has not seen that (it uses an image but I didn't initially)
10:34:11 [nigel]
... height from the aspect ratio until layout actually happens. So you can start your request just based on
10:34:24 [nigel]
... the width info and maybe in the future height as well. We reserved this part for v2 of the spec.
10:34:42 [nigel]
... You should be able to load the resource based on one of those dimensions.
10:34:55 [nigel]
... I'm assuming all the resources in the srcset have the same aspect ratio.
10:35:11 [nigel]
zcorpan: We're trying to solve the problem of jumpy layout during page load. When the page starts to render
10:35:35 [nigel]
... at that point the stylesheets are loaded so you could make the request before layout.
10:36:00 [nigel]
... You can load the image knowing the layout before having the image. I still think it would be nice to have
10:36:10 [dbaron]
present+
10:36:19 [nigel]
zcorpan: an attribute or something in HTML because when a CMS drops an image into a document they may
10:36:25 [nigel]
... not want to change the markup.
10:36:43 [nigel]
yoav: It's easier to verify and therefore some performance projects are using HTML.
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10:36:50 [zcorpan]
q?
10:37:14 [nigel]
dsinger: MPEG recently standardised a new image file format that may be related. It's codec neutral.
10:37:28 [nigel]
... The concern was about expressing how to package an image collection together and specifying which
10:37:51 [nigel]
... to use for printing, or non destructive edits etc. This is called the High Efficiency Image File Format.
10:38:07 [nigel]
... This could be related to the same use case.
10:38:33 [zcorpan]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format
10:38:54 [nigel]
yoav: That's extremely interesting. Does it say in the headers the different image resolutions?
10:38:56 [cyril]
https://github.com/nokiatech/heif
10:38:56 [nigel]
dsinger: Yes.
10:39:15 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: That's awesome
10:39:41 [nigel]
dsinger: Images are stored mp4 style with a structure at the beginning with byte range offsets etc. and you
10:39:55 [cyril]
you can inspect examle images with http://download.tsi.telecom-paristech.fr/gpac/mp4box.js/filereader.html
10:40:03 [nigel]
dsinger: could put mp4 tracks in the same file if you wanted. You would want to profile it down for some scenarios.
10:40:24 [nigel]
yoav: Can you have low and higher resolutions compounded with scalable coding? And cropping?
10:40:27 [nigel]
dsinger: Yes to both.
10:40:37 [nigel]
cyril: I have examples of scalable in all directions.
10:40:48 [zcorpan]
s/all/art/
10:40:59 [cyril]
s/in all directions/and art directions/
10:40:59 [nigel]
gregwhitworth: Have you spoken with browser vendors and about OS support etc?
10:41:12 [nigel]
dsinger: Not yet but I'm happy to do tutorials and chat more with people.
10:41:58 [nigel]
Action: gregwhitworth Get use case data on basic elements that would need to preserve aspect ratio
10:41:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
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10:42:19 [nigel]
ACTION: yoav Get the loading use case
10:42:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
10:42:52 [nigel]
scribenick: gregwhitworth
10:42:58 [gregwhitworth]
topic: h descriptor
10:43:03 [gregwhitworth]
scribenick: gregwhitworth
10:43:18 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: currently you can't state the height via height restrictions
10:43:25 [gregwhitworth]
... the current syntax doesn't allow this
10:43:34 [gregwhitworth]
... do we want to discuss the various options we had
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10:43:54 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: I think the syntax is not the important part, but we need to figure out what people are trying to do with height based images
10:43:59 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: we need usecases
10:44:14 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: once we understand that we can get a syntax
10:44:15 [nigel]
q+ to ask about separating box from resource aspect ratios
10:44:31 [gregwhitworth]
action zcorpan with the getting height restricted use cases
10:44:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
10:44:58 [gregwhitworth]
???: you mentioned earlier about the video player
10:45:13 [gregwhitworth]
... the player can have one size, and the video that's playing might have a different aspect ratio
10:45:22 [gregwhitworth]
... so you need to know the reference area
10:45:40 [gregwhitworth]
... specifiying a box with an AR and then positioning a box inside of that
10:46:01 [gregwhitworth]
... you all remember 4:3 tv and you are watching a 16:9 video, do you scale or do you center cut
10:46:24 [gregwhitworth]
... one you're preserving the AR but you're cropping it
10:46:38 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: there is a property in CSS called object-fit where you can control this
10:46:51 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: the default for video is object-fit: contain
10:47:04 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: and images are set to preserve AR
10:47:27 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: however there is no way of knowing how big the rendered image is if you preserve AR
10:47:32 [gregwhitworth]
... nah, you could...
10:47:45 [gregwhitworth]
... there are properties to get the width/height of the resource once it's loaded
10:47:51 [gregwhitworth]
... you do know the size of it
10:48:19 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: you can render things on top of it, but you would need to use other things than CSS to accomplish it
10:48:30 [cyril]
s/???/nigel/
10:49:00 [gregwhitworth]
nigel: that's interesting. That's the point of it, we need to work out what area you have. Sure, I guess we can do that in JS, but it may be worth looking into whether we want to somehow solve that before loading
10:49:11 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: anything else
10:49:21 [nigel]
q-
10:49:38 [nigel]
s/action zc/Action: zc
10:49:41 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: what level of effort do you want
10:49:45 [gregwhitworth]
... to help out
10:49:58 [gregwhitworth]
jkt: I'm willing to look into getting use cases as well
10:50:14 [gregwhitworth]
jkt: other than that, I can work with the syntax but that's not something we need to do early on
10:50:18 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: cool
10:50:26 [zcorpan]
👍
10:51:03 [gregwhitworth]
cyril: what's the responsiveness in the video element
10:51:14 [nigel]
rrsagent, make logs public
10:51:18 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:51:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
10:51:34 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: it's in there, but implementers aren't jumping for it, and haven't gotten a lot of feedback from devs for it either
10:51:46 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: you can put a high res in for a poster
10:52:07 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: do you see a use case for an art directed poster
10:52:15 [gregwhitworth]
cyril: could you put picture inside as the poster?
10:52:45 [gregwhitworth]
cyril: any reason why the video element is not able to play images
10:53:09 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: I would ask the opposite question, why can't you play the video in the image?
10:53:25 [yoav]
An early prototype I wrote down in 2013 for something like HEIF: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/09/responsive-image-container/
10:53:32 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: on a theoretical level, it's possible but on an architectural level it's hard
10:53:35 [yoav]
^^ dsinger cyril
10:53:42 [nigel]
Meeting: Responsive Images breakout session TPAC 2016
10:54:17 [gregwhitworth]
zcorpan: there is an interest I believe
10:54:28 [nigel]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:54:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
10:54:39 [gregwhitworth]
yoav: animated gifs are a good use case, we should get rid of this
10:55:09 [gregwhitworth]
???: one thing that struck me is that this may be a problem for a11y if you put a video inside of image
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???/kirkwood
10:55:36 [nigel]
s|s/in all directions/and art directions/|
10:57:06 [nigel]
present+ dsinger, cyril, yoav, kirkwood, dbaron, jihye, SteveZ
10:57:21 [nigel]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:57:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/21-respimg-minutes.html nigel
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15:48:53 [innovati]
Looks like I missed a party in here :D
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