08:17:40 RRSAgent has joined #auto 08:17:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-irc 08:17:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:17:42 Zakim has joined #auto 08:17:44 Zakim, this will be 08:17:44 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 08:17:45 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 08:17:45 Date: 20 September 2016 08:18:17 present+ Kangchan 08:21:54 junichi_ has joined #auto 08:22:53 Topic: Auto BG update 08:23:09 Wonsuk: we have two task forces, one on media tuning and other on location based services 08:23:28 … we are working on a draft for LBS and should hear more from Qing An 08:23:49 … for media tuning we are comparing use cases with tv controller api wg 08:24:05 … ryan regularly joins their wg calls 08:24:31 … unfortunately he is not here to provide more details on their findings and any gaps 08:24:42 s/ryan/Ryan/ 08:24:55 … perhaps Kaz as team contact there can provide some more information 08:24:59 kaz has joined #auto 08:25:21 Kaz: the expectation is the tv control specification will take into account Ryan's proposals 08:25:52 … it would also be nice if they changed their spec and variable names from tv to media 08:26:37 Wonsuk: Ryan already made a proposal including our use cases. have those been incorporated yet or still under discussion? 08:26:43 Kaz: still under discussion 08:28:17 … i wonder however if there should be some service level spec like we are doing for vehicle signals in addition to client side api 08:30:06 Wonsuk: we need to also line with Genivi 08:30:54 QingAn has joined #auto 08:31:12 AdamC has joined #auto 08:34:04 Kevin: there are others more involved in media in JLR than Adam or I 08:34:37 Adam: we have a[n internal] standard attribute naming convention 08:35:24 Kevin: drm is an issue in this area. there are often proprietary SDK necessary and not just opening 08:35:24 q? 08:37:37 Karen has joined #auto 08:38:57 (some more discussion on DRM and EME) 08:44:37 sangchul has joined #auto 08:44:45 s/and not just opening/and not just opening a URI/ 08:45:05 Karen has left #auto 08:48:08 AdamC has joined #auto 08:52:13 ahaller2_ has joined #auto 08:56:43 urata_access2 has joined #auto 09:09:36 urata_access2 has joined #auto 09:15:08 irc is still alive? 09:17:40 matsuo has joined #auto 09:19:28 ahaller2 has joined #auto 09:34:19 sam has joined #auto 09:37:28 ahaller2 has joined #auto 09:42:39 Could you open the files of powepoint and excel I sent by e-mail 7 hours before? 09:42:40 wonsuk has joined #auto 09:49:07 kaz has joined #auto 09:50:31 [ after morning break ] 09:50:47 topic: VSS review - Hira 09:50:47 yingying has joined #auto 09:50:50 AdamC has joined #auto 09:51:30 hira: yellow lines highlighted show missing features 09:51:43 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 09:51:45 yingying_ has joined #auto 09:52:10 ahaller2 has joined #auto 09:53:02 QingAn has joined #auto 09:53:11 ... also location information is incompatible the existing Geolocation API 09:54:35 ... some data is missing in both VSS and Vehicle data, e.g., fuel tank capacity, number of tires 09:55:02 kevin: good input 09:55:24 hira: comments appreciated 09:55:30 wonsuk: your proposal is very clear 09:55:31 q? 09:55:34 ted: comments 09:55:38 q+ 09:55:44 ... agree there are signals missing 09:57:32 ... contribution to be included using pull request 09:57:54 q- 09:57:58 hira: user ID is important 09:58:27 ... we've not defined user ID yet 09:58:45 some are controversial or open to debate such as vin (privacy but that can be addressed by access control) and number of doors is something that can be deduced with simple count of body.door.* 09:59:01 matsuo has joined #auto 09:59:14 wonsuk: we need to keep discussing this topic 09:59:27 ... and will discuss this during the upcoming Genivi meeting in October 09:59:39 ... tx for your great contribution 09:59:41 Kangchan has joined #auto 10:00:06 Yoshi has joined #auto 10:00:14 s/agree there are signals missing/agree there are signals missing and they will extend over time/ 10:01:20 s/contribution to be included using pull request/they welcome contributions and would suggest doing so in logical modest sized pull requests in case any warrant further discussion before accepting/ 10:03:33 [hira, looking at your spreadsheet more i wonder if you should use meters instead of centimeters for various things like acceleration] 10:05:12 [if your spreadhsheet of existing signals is correct it seems vss is inconsistent in units of measurement. grams in some places, kilos other, mm and inches. that might be because of what is commonly used terminology for a given part but in my opinion would be best to have in common] 10:05:31 [i'll take another look at vss and contact magnus about that] 10:05:44 topic: Joint discussion with WoT 10:05:58 WoT guys have joined 10:06:51 introduction from the WoT side 10:07:02 Kajimoto: panasonic 10:07:08 Joerg: Siemens 10:07:36 Kangchan: ETRI 10:07:57 Matthias: Siemens 10:08:01 Wonsuk: ETRI 10:08:09 raphael has joined #auto 10:08:24 Sebasitian: Siemens 10:08:27 Ted: W3C 10:08:44 Kevin: JLR 10:09:01 Adam: JLR 10:09:13 Victor: Siemens 10:09:27 Natasha: GSMA 10:09:33 Matsumura: NHK 10:09:42 Daniel: Siemens 10:09:51 Takuki: Fujitsu 10:10:00 Bernard: W3C 10:10:21 Jonathan: 10:10:25 Michael: Intel 10:10:50 Kaz: W3C 10:10:58 Qing_An: Alibaba 10:11:07 Yingying: W3C 10:11:14 Junichi: KDDI 10:11:41 @@@: Panasonic 10:11:46 Ohsumi: Panasoinc 10:11:49 Nunokawa: Keio 10:11:58 Andrei: @@1 10:12:08 Mohammed: Orange 10:12:12 Matsuo: Softbank 10:12:25 Yongjue: Softbank 10:12:35 s/@@@:/Hamid/ 10:12:42 schuki has joined #auto 10:12:47 Victor has joined #auto 10:12:50 JonathanJ has joined #auto 10:12:55 mdadas has joined #auto 10:12:55 Kajimoto has joined #auto 10:12:57 present+ schuki 10:13:06 wonsuk: shows the agenda on the screen 10:13:14 present+ Mohammed Dadas 10:13:17 ... current status 10:13:31 ... host name of "wwwivi" and sub-protocol name 10:13:34 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon 10:13:37 sebastian has joined #auto 10:13:41 ... description method 10:13:42 drkevg has joined #auto 10:13:51 matsuo has joined #auto 10:13:58 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 10:14:06 present+ T.Hirabayashi @KDDI 10:14:07 joerg has joined #auto 10:14:09 mkovatsc has joined #auto 10:14:18 s/Jonathan:/Jonathan: ETRI/ 10:14:31 ... HTTP error code 10:14:35 ... security and privacy 10:14:42 ... any comments? 10:15:08 mm: relationship with device and sensors? 10:15:15 ted: we had discussion with them 10:15:49 wonsuk: will explain the work of the Automotive WG 10:15:57 HI, It looks WebEx has disconnected.. 10:16:19 kamiya has joined #auto 10:16:31 WebEX has been disconnected! 10:16:47 TKS 10:17:17 kevin: we've changed our approach from JS API to WebSocket-based interface 10:17:31 ... (shows Vechicle Signal Server spec) 10:17:38 [web socket service available in-vehicle network only] 10:18:17 @@@v 10:18:35 kevin: (shows slides) 10:18:37 @@@s 10:18:46 kevin: Proposed Vehicle Data Infrastructure 10:19:22 [800+ signals in Vehicle Signal Specification (VSS) at present and growing] 10:19:31 ... Data Structure (VSS) by GENIVI (Author: Magnus Feuer) 10:19:34 YO has joined #auto 10:20:20 ... Server Spec by W3C (Author: Kevin Gavigan, Adam Crofts) 10:20:36 ... Client Spec by W3C (Author: Powell Kinney) 10:20:45 ... (goes back to the spec draft) 10:21:07 tentative agenda - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2016Sep/0025.html 10:21:44 -> http://w3c.github.io/automotive/vehicle_data/vehicle_information_service.html spec draft 10:22:15 kevin: security and privacy considerations 10:22:35 mm: one on one security? 10:23:00 ted: token is used 10:23:18 seba: why do you define WebSocket connection? 10:23:30 kevin: initiated by Tobie from the Device API group 10:23:42 ... as more generic interface 10:24:01 mm: can you bootstrap REST interface based on this? 10:24:20 kevin: JS library depends on the client spec 10:24:31 ... (shows the architecture diagram) 10:24:46 ... "System" at the bottom 10:25:26 ... we need a secure gateway 10:25:57 ... the "System" covers almost all the car environment 10:26:07 ... (shows the VSS tree diagram) 10:26:11 ... tree-based structure 10:26:21 ... logical structure of vehicle-related signals 10:26:31 matsuo_ has joined #auto 10:26:32 Hamid has joined #auto 10:26:32 mm: popular design? 10:26:42 kevin: have been discussed within GENIVI 10:26:57 -> https://github.com/GENIVI/vehicle_signal_specification VSS 10:27:01 ... (continues the explanation on the architecture diagram) 10:27:13 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-automotive/2016Sep/0000.html VSS presentation 10:27:23 ... WebSocket Vehicle Signal Server (WVSS) 10:27:53 ... each node of the VSS tree is a class 10:29:05 ... (goes back to the architecture diagram) 10:29:51 ... JavaScript Library exposes high-level APIs for the Web clients 10:30:35 ted: provides some more background information 10:30:37 yingying has joined #auto 10:31:16 mm: sounds like synchronized documents on two sides 10:31:41 nunoken1 has joined #auto 10:31:58 kevin: the Vehicle Signal Client API is easier to handle for Web developers 10:32:09 ying_ying has joined #auto 10:32:49 matthias: why do you use websockets? 10:32:58 ... sounds like reinventing protocols 10:33:22 ... on the top of socket connection 10:33:51 kevin: good question 10:34:12 ... WebSocket Vehicle Signal Server (WVSS) exposes Vehicle Signal Server API 10:34:23 q+ 10:35:11 ... possibly with runtimes which don't have UI 10:36:26 ... and possibly connected with devices without fixed IP address 10:37:21 daniel: data format? 10:37:35 kevin: first version considers JSON 10:37:41 ... could add other formats later 10:38:24 kinjim has joined #auto 10:38:50 ted: there are a number of different approaches 10:39:47 ... subscription of data would make sense because data on vehicles is huge 10:40:07 mm: how to handle "sleep"? 10:40:18 ... WebSocket connection always open? 10:40:45 kevin: examples of WebSocket APIs 10:40:59 ... create WebSocket connection 10:41:35 ... sending "action: authorize" 10:41:58 ... and the token 10:42:58 ... and send "action: get" with "path: signal.public.global.speed" 10:43:36 ... another good example on "subscription" 10:44:07 ... and message structure (http://w3c.github.io/automotive/vehicle_data/vehicle_information_service.html#message-structure) 10:44:29 mm: overlaps with CSS filtering and so on 10:46:10 Kevin: data tree search is similar to CSS filtering 10:46:58 ... (explains the ladder diagram on the interface between the client and the server0 10:47:01 s/server0/server) 10:47:07 ... this is the last slide 10:47:51 ... client asks the server about "vehicle.speed" and the server responds to the client with the vehicle.speed 10:48:15 seba: access protection? 10:48:38 ... only one way to handle the security token? 10:48:53 kevin: at the moment our spirit is to be open 10:49:09 ... the client goes to some authority to get the token 10:49:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:49:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 10:50:05 mm: you have defined the mechanism inside 10:50:18 ... don't care of the mechanism to get token from outside 10:50:41 seba: WoT's Thing Description also needs to handle security 10:51:15 kevin: the client should handle at least the error code of expired or invalid 10:51:45 ... we can have a private tree 10:52:06 mm: one more thing to ask is use cases 10:52:16 ... what kind use cases are in your scope? 10:52:28 kevin: getting/setting signal within the vehicle 10:52:53 matsuo has joined #auto 10:53:06 ... used on vehicle to talk with outside for convoy driving 10:53:45 ... manufacturers need to see what to be exposed by the Vehicle Signal Specification 10:53:59 ... VSS returns metadata 10:54:15 wonsuk: we're getting out of time 10:55:02 kaz: maybe would make sense to have joint calls on the regular basis? 10:55:16 matthias: should identify specific topics beforehand 10:55:27 topic: WoT update 10:55:40 @@@slidesM 10:55:55 matthias: What is the Web of Things? 10:56:11 ... Web of Things: applications 10:56:26 ... W3C WoT Mission 10:56:27 kamiya_ has joined #auto 10:56:46 ... fill the gaps to interconnect different approaches by different consortia 10:56:52 ... Status 10:57:03 ... WoT IG for 1.5 years 10:57:12 ... 4 IG Notes to be published 10:57:27 ... several implementations based on the PlugFest experience 10:58:18 ... AC review for WoT WG ongoing 10:58:36 ... WoT demo on Wednesday at Auditorium III 10:58:50 wonsuk: when do you expect for the WG to get launched 10:58:59 matthias: in October? 10:59:09 ... W3C WoT Building Blocks 10:59:15 ... Protocol Bindings 10:59:20 ->https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Roadmap 10:59:24 ... Thing Description 10:59:42 ... Scripting API 10:59:52 ... Cross-cutting Security & Privacy 11:00:47 -> http://w3c.github.io/wot/current-practices/wot-practices.html current practice doc 11:01:06 matthias: see the building blocks quickly 11:01:12 ... Protocol binding 11:01:32 ... Web API for Things 11:01:45 ... various protocols 11:01:53 ... multiple bindings per Thing possible 11:02:43 ... Common Interaction Model 11:02:49 ... Resource Model 11:03:08 ... two loads: consuming Things is client role 11:03:18 ... exposing Things is server role 11:04:04 ... usually both roles at the same time 11:04:30 ... so use "Servient" which has both the capabilities of server and client 11:04:43 yingying_ has joined #auto 11:05:47 ... move on to Thing Description 11:05:58 ... How to interact with Things? 11:06:05 ... Thing Description (TD) 11:06:06 matsuo has joined #auto 11:06:13 ... linked data vocabularies 11:06:28 ... no fixed classes or types but re-usable vocab 11:06:58 ... mahcne-understandable semantics 11:07:04 s/mahcne/machine/ 11:07:22 ... W3C THing Description 11:07:27 s/THing/Thing/ 11:07:35 ... for now serialied as JSON-LD 11:07:50 ... could be compressed using EXI, etc. 11:08:03 ... extensible with domain-specific vocab 11:08:17 ... maybe automotive or other consortia 11:08:33 ... could be plugged in the Thing Description 11:09:33 ... TD example (JSON-LD) 11:10:30 ... @context, @type, name, uris, encodings, security, ... 11:10:50 ... 3 interaction patterns: property, action and event 11:12:25 ... next 11:12:29 ... Scripting API 11:12:38 ... common runtime enables portable apps 11:13:05 ... from servient by vendor A to another servient by vendor B 11:13:42 matsuo has joined #auto 11:14:10 ... Disc. API, Server API and Client API 11:14:21 ... Script example (Expose Thing) 11:15:30 mm: could be applied to virtual things 11:16:01 matthias: Script Example (Consume Thing) - client side 11:16:17 ... summarization: 11:16:26 ... Thing Implementation: WoT Servient 11:16:31 ... application logic 11:16:34 ... resource model 11:16:40 ... Thing Description 11:16:51 s/Disc./Discovery/ 11:17:08 ... Thing Description includes all the metadata 11:17:18 ... WoT Servient on Thing itself 11:17:26 ... WoT Servient on Integration Hub 11:17:36 ... WoT Servient in the Cloud 11:18:11 ... Connected Car Scenario 11:18:48 kaji: the CAN layer is a proprietary layer 11:19:43 ... on be half of the ECUs on CAN, the Gateway (as a WoT Servient) exposes data to the cloud side (as a WoT Client) 11:19:50 matthias: Online Resources 11:20:06 ... we can continue discussions during break, etc. 11:20:10 wonsuk: questions? 11:20:21 kevin: how to manage trust? 11:20:32 ... how to recognize if I can get connected 11:20:47 matthias: depending on the Web architecture 11:21:20 ... we could use additional plugin to handle security to Thing Description 11:21:23 kamiya_ has left #auto 11:21:43 ... we're not inventing new mechanism for security 11:21:59 ... but working with IETF about authentication 11:22:32 mm: do we need some special mechanism for metadata? 11:23:16 kevin: we're working on the architecture document as well 11:23:44 ... we can reuse the existing mechanism, e.g., OCF 11:24:49 (some more discussion about cooperation with other consortia) 11:25:13 matthias: shows the slide of "W3C WoT Mission" 11:27:20 kaz: @@k 11:29:13 ... also maybe automotive group might want the TD to have a capability to refer to external data definition, e.g., VSS 11:29:20 matthias: interesting point 11:29:48 seba: guess each manufacture has their own VSS tree? 11:30:32 ... Thing Description is more abstract 11:31:08 kevin: powerful to have generalized level of data 11:31:41 ... interested in how to bridge 11:31:58 mm: interested in finding use cases 11:32:24 kaji: shows a use case: Comfortable Welcome Home 11:32:42 mm: home and car, industry and car, car and car, etc. 11:33:00 nunoken1 has joined #auto 11:33:16 kaji: IVI recognizes the distance between the current geometry positiom and my home 11:33:46 ... if the distance becomes less than threshold such as 3km, then the air conditioner turns on 11:34:06 matsuo has joined #auto 11:35:00 ... the WoT Servient for IVI identifies who I am 11:36:17 ... IVI gets home geometry, current geometry position of the car, and get current speed, etc. 11:36:38 wonsuk: tx 11:36:58 kevin: can quickly show another use case 11:37:26 ... Potential Attackers 11:37:39 ... external attackers and internal attackers 11:37:57 ... lots of potential attackers 11:38:01 ... Example Use Case 11:38:38 ... ADAS - controller sets safety critical controls 11:38:43 mm: hand-over issue 11:39:04 ... also how to do mash-up 11:39:40 jh: lots to think especially for car use cases 11:41:14 kevin: inputs into the ADAS control modlue, e.g., camera 11:41:36 ... another example on convoy driving 11:42:18 jh: you're focused on the vehicle-internal communication 11:42:43 ... but would be interesting to think of joint work with other 11:42:46 s/other/others/ 11:43:22 kevin: so far Automotive participants, e.g., JLR are interested in car use cases 11:44:06 matthias: could be involved in the demo even with some simple functionalities 11:44:21 kevin: like speed meter, steering wheel angle 11:45:30 mm: maybe we should start with sensing part of sensing and actuation 11:46:08 wonsuk: shows the agenda 11:46:31 ... we're out of time with the first item (current status of each WG activity) 11:46:35 s/WG/group/ 11:46:49 ... if you agree, we might want to have joint calls 11:47:02 ... we need some more internal discussion too 11:47:14 ... after we can set up a joint call 11:47:33 matthias: would suggest we have proposals on some specific topics 11:47:38 matsuo has joined #auto 11:47:57 ... maybe we could find some paring between your group and our group 11:48:04 wonsuk: sounds good 11:48:16 ... any other opinions? 11:48:17 (none) 11:48:21 wonsuk: tx! 11:52:12 [ lunch till 2pm 11:52:17 s/2pm/2pm ]/ 11:52:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:52:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 11:58:45 urata-access has joined #auto 12:13:27 GeunHyung_Kim has joined #auto 12:41:17 ahaller2 has joined #auto 12:53:07 kinoshita has joined #auto 13:02:53 raphael has joined #auto 13:03:43 QingAn has joined #auto 13:15:16 [ after lunch ] 13:16:52 da: from TAG 13:17:08 ... you can issue an issue on TAG's Github if needed 13:17:15 matsuo has joined #auto 13:17:27 wonsuk has joined #auto 13:17:28 i/from TAG/topic: Comment from TAG/ 13:18:00 topic: Map API (revisited) 13:18:29 hamid: what are the features in the navigation systems are already available 13:18:40 ... are you recreating that mechanism? 13:18:52 ... I use navigation with my car 13:19:30 ahaller2 has joined #auto 13:19:32 ... e.g., getting into some specific area and detect that is missing 13:19:41 ... what is the real use case for this Map API work? 13:20:28 wonsuk: that (=use case discussion) was done before 13:20:35 qa: last year? 13:20:56 ... there are many kinds of navigation system available 13:21:24 ... compatibility with Web technology based on abstraction 13:21:46 ... GENIVI also joins this work 13:22:04 Geunhyung_ has joined #auto 13:22:07 ... and discuss what the expected Web API should be 13:22:36 ... this is the same to the other navigation service providers too 13:22:39 urata_access has joined #auto 13:23:18 Zakim has left #auto 13:24:05 hamid: you'll provide the same service as the one we have today? 13:25:09 adam: we'll be able to integrate various IVI services with navigation service 13:25:13 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 13:25:20 hira has joined #auto 13:26:15 kevin: we should be careful not to reinvent wheels 13:26:30 qa: goes ahead 13:27:11 ... Interface 'Map' 13:27:16 ... POI Use Cases 13:27:23 ... point of interest 13:27:40 ... keyword searching by default 13:27:42 matsuo has joined #auto 13:27:51 ... keyword searching nearby (geometrics) 13:27:59 ... keyword searching within bound 13:28:11 ... get detailed POI info 13:29:45 AdamC has joined #auto 13:31:13 ... (goes through the API description) 13:31:31 ... basic POI object 13:33:03 dka has joined #auto 13:33:12 ... Driving API 13:33:16 ... Inteface 'Driving' 13:33:59 Hi, could you reconnect WebEx? 13:34:07 hamid has joined #auto 13:36:19 qa: Interface 'DriveRoute' 13:37:06 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-automotive/2016Sep/att-0027/LBS-api-webidl-draft.docx Qing An's writeup 13:38:32 WebEx is OK! 13:38:50 scribenick: ted 13:38:53 Thanks ted, ashimura-san 13:39:22 QingAn: API design is very detailed getting into eg roadID 13:39:48 … geocoder use cases are for forwarding or reverse geocoding 13:40:23 [geocoder interface definition] 13:41:20 QingAn: result of getLocation returns geographic coordinates and getAddress gets the address description 13:41:43 yingying has joined #auto 13:42:52 … objectives include api best practice and furthering use cases 13:43:32 yingying_ has joined #auto 13:44:00 Kevin: is there a spatial data group in w3c that may already be trying to come up with similar? 13:44:36 Kangchan has joined #auto 13:44:58 … there may be a number of ways to define the same thing for eg POI 13:45:50 https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Main_Page 13:45:58 QingAn: which groups? 13:45:59 Spatial Data on the Web WG^ 13:46:05 Adam: spatial data 13:46:29 Kevin: they're involved with the open geospatial consortium 13:48:15 QingAn: Philippe Colliet has been intending to provide the Genivi API side for geo but understand only part of it would be ready for the AMM in October 13:48:48 Wonsuk: for vehicle signals we have client side and server side specs 13:49:05 … this is purely client side 13:49:38 QingAn: we have not found a very good solution based on web sockets 13:49:53 … we may need to get some outside assistance for such an approach 13:51:58 rrsagent, make log public 13:51:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:51:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 13:52:09 Wonsuk: we should make a clearer architectural picture for LBS 13:52:50 QingAn: for VSS/signal web socket we assume the server is located in the vehicle itself 13:53:07 … LBS service could be either on or off vehicle 13:54:00 Ted: or a mix with cache and remote eg traffic data 13:54:09 @@1: what would you see cached and in what format? 13:54:11 present: Kangchan_Lee(ETRI), Wonsuk_Lee(ETRI), Ted_Guild(W3C), Kevin_Gavigan(JLR) 13:54:15 s/@@1/Dan/ 13:54:26 s/Dan:/Dan_Kaminsky:/ 13:54:51 QingAn: format will vary based on the customer 13:55:48 Kevin: one of the challenges for SOTA is updating large maps data over cell network 13:56:16 Dan: you might want to check instant.io and how they are handling sporadic connectivity issues 13:56:45 https://instant.io/ 13:56:47 … it allows loss tolerate and latency aware communication 13:58:17 QingAn: we need to first define what data should be cached vehicle side and what needs to be updated in real time 13:58:36 Dan: it looks like you were integrating directly into the DOM. how do you see the integration? 13:58:59 QingAn: we initially took a webidl approach and you could have it available to the DOM 13:59:05 JonathanJ has joined #auto 13:59:19 Dan: you could expose this as a REST endpoint and have a thin wrapper to get similar functionality 13:59:27 present+ Adam_Crofts(JLR), YoungJae_Shin(Softbank), Matsuo_Suzuki(Softbank), Hamid_Amir_Alikhani(Panasonic), Qing_An(Alibaba), Yingying_Chen(W3C), Junichi_Hashimoto(KDDI), Kaz_Ashimura(W3C), Michael_McCool(Intel), Mohammed_Dadas(Orange), Uday_Davuluru(RWE), Kazuo_Kajimoto(Panasonic), Joerg_Heuer(Siemens), Sebastian_Kaebisch(Siemens), Victor_Charpenay(Siemens), Daniel_Peintner(Siemens), Philipp_Hoschka(W3C), Bernard_Gidon(W3C) 13:59:35 … we keep seeing people try to add things to the browser 14:00:04 … which provides a means for external sites (and advertisers) to potentially manipulate 14:00:34 present+ Jonathan_Jeon(ETRI), Yoshiaki_Ohsumi(Panasonic), Kenichi_Nunokawa(Keio), Taizo_Kinoshita(Hitachi) 14:00:57 … to the degree you can compartmentalize nicely it is really worthwhile 14:01:31 present+ Daniel_Appelquist(TAG/Samsung), Bill_Scannell(White_Ops), Dan_Kaminsky(White_Ops), Dong_Wenyu(China_Mobile) 14:01:34 present+ Hirabayashi (KDDI) 14:01:58 s/Hirabayashi (KDDI)/Hirabayashi(KDDI;remote)/ 14:02:07 present+ Urata(ACCESS;remote) 14:02:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 14:02:29 Chair: Wonsuk 14:02:56 i/DRM and EME/scribenick: kaz/ 14:02:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 14:03:34 i/we have two task forces/scribenick: ted/ 14:03:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:03:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 14:04:11 matsuo has joined #auto 14:05:53 dka has joined #auto 14:06:02 dka has left #auto 14:08:56 [high level vehicle architecture and security discussion - can't scribe and talk at the same time] 14:10:50 @@links to gunnar's diagram and previous meeting minutes 14:13:33 Kevin: we have other diagrams showing the various other levels touched up in brief here 14:14:27 ahaller2 has joined #auto 14:14:50 matsuo has joined #auto 14:14:52 … VSS provides tree like structure of signals information available 14:15:15 Dan: CAN to JSON essentially 14:15:23 Kevin: yes 14:15:56 Dan: and you are trying to control which clients can access which 14:17:14 Kevin: correct using a token structure that an app can provide to underlying socket service that can authenticate it and restrict 14:17:58 Dan: what else are you using to protect? 14:18:12 Kevin: wss - web socket over ssl 14:18:30 rstreif has joined #auto 14:18:31 Dan: what about outside connectivity interactions? 14:18:45 Kevin: we are not focusing on that at present 14:19:42 matsuo has joined #auto 14:20:34 Ted @@ on thoughts for third party developer guidelines if we later see level of cooperation 14:21:06 Dan: the big question is what the bad guy might do in a situation like this? 14:22:02 … the secure gateway that wasn't part of the diagram was the first thing i was looking for 14:22:17 … critical systems should be completely separated 14:22:43 … an SELinux type approach is fine grained but a grain might be missed 14:23:05 … it is ok for a gas pedal to make the car accelerate not the radio 14:23:24 … scope the stuff that could kill someone out 14:24:02 Kevin: there are people who want to be able to have deliberate limited remote access 14:24:20 Dan: fine but it should be a separate and distinct system, unrelated to this 14:24:34 … you will be compromised components 14:25:14 … an ad can be downloaded and contain script that runs in your web runtime 14:25:38 … isolation is the name of the game 14:25:45 … forget fine grained 14:25:57 … there will be a bug discovered 14:27:00 … as simple as you can make the constraint between CAN bus and your web socket the better 14:27:59 … the crypto you should focus most on keys for protecting software updates 14:29:36 … I would probably define a chain model. define a finite number of chains of what you want to expose 14:31:32 … the components that are permitted to the web should be separate from ones that can talk to the can bus 14:33:27 s|Ted @@ on thoughts for third party developer guidelines if we later see level of cooperation|Ted: i've had some on thoughts for third party developer guidelines if we later see level of cooperation necessary among OEM to impose them https://www.w3.org/2016/04/guidelines-article.html| 14:34:10 Hamid: suppose someone lost a key to unlock and start their car. what kind of ability do you need to provide them? 14:34:23 … that is a threat analysis and defining the core problem 14:34:52 … OEM do not buy more computers readily 14:35:30 Dan: when you have to do something inconvenient you need to think of the worst thing someone can misuse that 14:36:39 … are you doing that sort of analysis in your spec? 14:37:01 Ted: we are doing threat tree analysis within Genivi security group 14:37:27 Dan: you need to think of the risks that exist already and you are adding 14:39:35 matsuo_ has joined #auto 14:39:40 … you should define where to air gap 14:46:37 [discussion of ecosystem] 14:48:51 Dan: check out https://autoclave.run/ sometime :) 14:49:19 (re sandboxing) 14:50:47 Dan: how much is this similar to ODB2? 14:50:57 … in terms of data being exposed 14:51:02 Kevin: similar 14:51:55 Dan: maybe you work work on secure ODB2-like interface and go from there 14:52:26 ahaller2 has joined #auto 14:53:02 Ted: some and hopefully in time all OEM will be creating those as secure gateways to CAN. essentially breaking pins to prevent writes in your RS232 model 14:53:46 Dan: check out what George Hotz did with his car and playstation 14:54:32 drkevg has joined #auto 14:54:41 George Hotz: https://www.yahoo.com/news/george-hotzs-999-autonomous-driving-214211225.html 14:56:53 matsuo has joined #auto 14:58:16 Dan: what about bluetooth? 14:59:21 Ted: not our part of the stack but the models we've been seeing definitely do not trust them 15:00:12 s/ODB2/OBD2/g 15:13:35 JonathanJ has joined #auto 15:15:54 JonathanJ1 has joined #auto 15:17:20 Jonathan_ has joined #auto 15:34:26 matsuo has joined #auto 15:38:33 Hi, WebEx is disconnected again. Could you reconnect? 15:38:53 ahaller2 has joined #auto 15:38:55 WebEX has been disconnected again! 15:40:33 urata_access2 has joined #auto 15:40:35 QingAn has joined #auto 15:42:55 wonsuk has joined #auto 15:45:34 AdamC has joined #auto 15:47:04 Recovered, TKS 15:51:35 https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Vehicle_Information_Service_Specification#JavaScript_Library_Interface_Guidelines 15:52:46 Topic: JS client API 15:53:00 Wonsuk summarizes methods Powell outlined in wiki 15:56:51 hamid has joined #auto 15:59:53 matsuo has joined #auto 16:01:52 sam has joined #auto 16:03:17 Present+ Rudolf_Streif(JLR;remote) 16:03:33 [group provides highlights of F2F to Rudi] 16:06:01 Wonsuk: we need to resync the client API with the socket one as there are some differences such as authenticate in client API only having concept of a single token 16:06:39 … also filters 16:07:19 Ted: yes re filters or the JS library implementation could potentially keep that simple and impose filters itself and not give the client the option 16:07:40 [group agrees we should sync with Powell] 16:10:45 Junichi: it is possible to do similar with authenticate 16:11:12 Ted: true, the client library could have token[s] and provide those to web socket in establishing connection 16:11:22 Kevin: there is no method for removing tokens 16:12:00 Ted: that could be done by passing no parameter to authenticate 16:12:32 Adam: callback method to subscribe 16:14:36 Wonsuk: what is the use case for raw? 16:15:03 … I guess we need to check with Powell 16:24:25 yingying_ has joined #auto 16:38:09 matsuo has joined #auto 16:38:49 https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Vehicle_Information_Service_Specification#JavaScript_Library_Interface_Guidelines 16:49:52 Tomoyuki has joined #auto 16:50:03 そちら、様子はどうですか? 16:50:44 s/そちら、様子はどうですか?// 16:52:48 Topic: HTTPS migration in local network 16:53:01 Junichi: This is for a session tomorrow at TPAC 16:53:37 It looks WebEx audio is lost.. 16:54:09 RCVD 16:54:15 Thanks! 16:56:39 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-automotive/2016Sep/att-0031/http-migration-in-local-network-r2.pptx Junichi's slides 16:57:14 thanks again! 16:57:28 Junichi: in this use case people want to store local video 16:58:47 … PLEX solution. provide uri and username 16:58:57 … browser will log into application server 16:59:38 … browser knows relationship. in example hostname is based on local IP address 17:00:09 kaz has joined #auto 17:00:29 … and domain name from external service 17:00:39 … certificate is a wildcard certificate for service domain name 17:01:44 … reason for this is CA generally consider .local hostnames and IP addresses as bad practice 17:02:11 … our wwwivi hostname in spec is a similar problem since we want to use wss 17:02:45 … this PLEX solution might provide some ideas for us 17:02:58 … we should have a plan for handling certificate 17:03:29 [slide of local device network] 17:04:30 Junichi: there are many stakeholders in our case with different spheres of influence (demonstrated by circles on diagram) 17:08:43 Ted: previously we discussed self signed under /etc/ssl/ but you very clearly demonstrate the bigger problem 17:09:17 … it is useful to be able to revoke certificates since a mitm attack with stolen private key could then in turn harvest tokens and data 17:09:42 Kevin: we need to be able to work when there is no connectivity (ability to verify certs with an external CA) 17:10:54 … there are devices (HSM) that can sign items passed to it with a private key 17:12:05 Kevin: QNX also has some mechanism 17:12:13 i/QNX/scribenick: kaz/ 17:15:00 scribenick: ted 17:15:14 Kevin: wondering about MS' secure boot model 17:17:31 Topic: Web & TV IG's Cloud Browser TF report 17:18:54 Kaz: I attended joint meeting between WoT & TV IG 17:19:15 … they are interested in a cloud browser with tv being client 17:19:45 … they are discussing concrete use cases 17:20:27 … the model they are considering between cloud browser and tv is similar to ours 17:20:43 … we will talk with them more at a future point 17:20:48 daisuke has joined #auto 17:22:33 Wonsuk: what would be the data format from cloud browser service 17:22:57 … this is useful for delivering features to a thinner client and offloading computation 17:23:19 … there are limitations with this model 17:23:33 … such as handling user interactions 17:23:56 … do they have ideas for formats after rendering in cloud browser? 17:24:08 Kaz: yeah, here is a more detailed diagram 17:24:14 @@uri 17:24:56 Kaz: there are several data formats and procedures for handling this 17:25:34 Kangchan has joined #auto 17:27:25 ->https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Main_Page/Cloud_Browser_TF/Architecture 17:27:39 Ted: as Kevin just mentioned during Junichi's CA topic there are plenty of times where a vehicle looses its internet connection 17:28:06 … cloud browser would need to be on the vehicle and not sure how it would be useful for signals information, maybe for media tuning 17:28:36 Wonsuk: WoT&TV TF is looking at this for media stream and could make sense for us 17:47:28 Thanks everyone. Good bye! 17:49:42 daisuke has left #auto 17:53:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:53:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 17:53:36 [ adjourned ] 17:53:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:53:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-auto-minutes.html kaz 17:54:08 I try to answer Ted's questions concerning VSS units. My understanding is as follows: All numerical values of vehicle signal/data are basically using SI units. However, we would rather not use floating point number, but integer seems to be preferable due to load of computing. So vehicle speed is not m/s, km/h, but m/h. 17:54:57 Bye 20:39:33 sam has joined #auto 21:13:31 JonathanJ has joined #auto 21:29:10 JonathanJ has joined #auto 21:29:11 JonathanJ has joined #auto 23:10:04 ahaller2 has joined #auto