IRC log of apa on 2016-09-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-apa-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs world

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Zakim, this will be

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I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

09:07:29 [trackbot]

Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference

09:07:29 [trackbot]

Date: 20 September 2016

09:07:39 [MichaelC]

meeting: APA at TPAC Day 2

09:07:43 [MichaelC]

chair: Janina

09:07:54 [MichaelC]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016

09:08:06 [MichaelC]

topic: CSS Accessibility Task Force Kickoff

09:08:22 [MichaelC]

See https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-css-minutes

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scribe: matt_king

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TOPIC: COGA

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10:17:37 [mck]

Starting the session with introductions

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10:23:33 [mck]

ls: here to discuss future plans and will intro what is happening with coga.

10:23:57 [mck]

helpful to move away from disability labels with cognitive.

10:24:45 [mck]

example: what definies a specific disability is very individual.

10:25:00 [mck]

The label doesn't help you understand issues.

10:25:27 [mck]

Memry issues can take many forms: visual, audio, working, etc.

10:26:02 [mck]

Typical workng memory is about 7 itmes, but some people may be limited to 1 or 2 but still be very intelligent.

10:27:04 [mck]

Discalcilia is area of brain that deal with mathematical concepts is impaired.

10:27:40 [mck]

Even cncepts like "more" or "less" can be tricky for some people with discalcilia.

10:29:23 [mck]

Web interfaces are ubiquitous to the extent that people with cognitive disabilities can have difficulty with basic life functions.

10:30:00 [janina]

present+ Janina

10:30:14 [mck]

There are apps to help people with certain disabilities, but they can be epensive and narrow in focus.

10:30:36 [mck]

There are also sisues with declared vs undeclared disabilities.

10:30:46 [mck]

Many people don't even admit to themselves.

10:31:17 [mck]

Even if they do admit to themselves, they may not be willing to admit to an employer.

10:32:15 [mck]

The coga tf has been doing research for 8 different disaiblities.

10:32:28 [mck]

Mostly meta studies of papers.

10:32:59 [mck]

For these disaibilities, there are specific needs but there are a lot of commonalities.

10:33:42 [mck]

They have alos produced some specific issue papers for specific topic, e.g., seurity, where they looked across disabilities for that topic.

10:34:03 [mck]

Next, they have done gap analysis and produced a roadmap.

10:34:14 [mck]

It is an early draft.

10:34:38 [mck]

It includes some earliy ideas on wcag success criteria.

10:35:32 [Gottfried]

COGA roadmap: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Roadmap

10:36:03 [mck]

One example is interactions.

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10:37:11 [mck]

If you have ADD, working on multiple devices, it could be difficult to keep track of which device is on, has a messaging conversation running.

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10:38:19 [mck]

This is first draft of roadmp with summaires of issues papers and gap analysis.

10:38:32 [Lisa_Seeman]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html

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10:38:43 [Lisa_Seeman]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/

10:39:18 [mck]

Groups of user neds like authentication and safety.

10:39:35 [mck]

Each row of table is a need related to a topic.

10:40:14 [mck]

For each need, we think about how it could be addressed with a success criteria.

10:40:39 [mck]

To make it easier for authros and better for users, would addtional semantics help?

10:40:45 [mck]

Sometimes that is the way to go.

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10:41:03 [mck]

Example if we have a semantic to identify critical features.

10:41:16 [jnurthen]

rrsagent, make minutes

10:41:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-apa-minutes.html jnurthen

10:41:16 [mck]

In email, send is necessary; cant' use app with out it.

10:41:40 [mck]

With critical features, you can reduce the UI to what is absolutely essential.

10:42:05 [mck]

The personalization aspect could be to determine how much to show, e.g., show only ciritcal features.

10:42:37 [mck]

This could be linked to preferences that are portable, e.g., GPII.

10:44:30 [mck]

Describing content of tables in the document.

10:46:05 [mck]

Proposal will include some changes to current WCAG guidance, such as for no losing data when there is a timeout.

10:46:30 [mck]

With some disabilities, skills improve and with other skills decrease.

10:46:54 [mck]

Also includes understandability of media and navigation.

10:47:08 [mck]

Navigation includes GPS

10:47:31 [mck]

The proposal for new semantics would go to aria.

10:47:58 [mck]

Example: semantics to support simplification of UI and language of UI

10:48:25 [mck]

Logs of what you are doing to help the user understand and remember what they have done.

10:48:46 [mck]

Need personalization setting, but we do not have a proposal for that yet.

10:49:09 [Lisa_Seeman]

https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/

10:49:59 [mck]

JS: this is just one of the inputs related to personalization. COGA has its, but there are lots of other groups that have interest in it.

10:50:14 [mck]

LS: coga has strong interest in privacy.

10:50:29 [mck]

cognitive issues can make people vlunterable to scams.

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10:51:42 [mck]

Could be a wcag principle for personalization.

10:52:00 [mck]

JN: that was apossibility, but we do not know it will a principle. Might fit under robust.

10:52:25 [mck]

we will come up with success cirteria first then they will be slotted in.

10:52:46 [mck]

JS: that is typical; probably do not know how it will be done from one meeting.

10:53:36 [mck]

ls: IIMS has some standards for coga, but they are specific to education.

10:54:43 [mck]

IP: do we know about uptake from browser vendors for personalization.

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10:54:54 [mck]

ls: no, not yet.

10:55:14 [mck]

js: too early for that since we dont' even have a published draft et.

10:55:31 [mck]

rs: just had really good metting with css wg.

10:56:22 [mck]

Considering medai query for user prefs. not in medai query 4 standard, but they are looking at it.

10:56:42 [mck]

it is not built yet, but css media query group recognizes the need.

10:57:18 [mck]

DPUB group is going to do prototypes and then get real world experience with it.

10:57:49 [mck]

Most of what media query does today is related to operating system features.

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10:58:05 [mck]

so user prefs would be a significant new features.

10:58:24 [mck]

ls: coga will want to hae input on that.

10:59:09 [mck]

rs: I recommend prototyping some solutions before going to css wg.

10:59:28 [mck]

js: I want requests to css mq group to be coordinated through pa.

11:00:06 [mck]

js: lets publish the first pwd and then share widely, including with css wg.

11:00:34 [mck]

rs: There is also a tf now between apa and css so we can have these discussions.

11:00:42 [mck]

ls: who is charing?

11:00:47 [mck]

js: not decided yet.

11:01:20 [mck]

ls: do we want to be dependent on browser adoption.

11:01:38 [mck]

js: the value of browser plugin approach is that we can prototype.

11:01:50 [mck]

ls: Here is a demo.

11:02:26 [mck]

we have a page where by adding some attributes to the html, we can transform how it is presented.

11:03:08 [mck]

The evil demo gods have paid a visit ... demo not working.

11:03:49 [mck]

Demo reads a json file and you can load it twice.

11:04:09 [mck]

Once with everyting in the UI and then a second time where UI is reduced to essential content.

11:04:40 [mck]

It doesn't change the dom, but hides hides content and changes its presentation.

11:05:10 [mck]

It can changes tyles and icons to introduce familiarity.

11:05:23 [mck]

For example, "home" always looks the same.

11:05:36 [mck]

User always know how to get to home page of a site.

11:06:06 [mck]

Changes a lot of visual and can add on information , such as tooltips.

11:06:19 [mck]

so it does, in some cases, change the dom.

11:06:22 [janina]

rrsagent, make minutes

11:06:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-apa-minutes.html janina

11:06:26 [mck]

This is in github.

11:06:53 [Lisa_Seeman]

http://rawgit.com/ayelet-seeman/coga.personalisation/demo/conactUs.html

11:07:53 [mck]

This is archtected so that a script can change any page as long as the page includes the sematnics required by the personalization script.

11:08:42 [mck]

rc: So, it is up to authors to respect the guidelines

11:09:08 [mck]

ls: Authors need to include the semantics in the content, very much like aria semantics.

11:10:48 [mck]

Network working ... goig back to demo.

11:12:24 [mck]

ls: upcoming publications.

11:12:34 [mck]

Have approval to publish the issue papers.

11:12:49 [mck]

Showing list of the ones that are publish ready.

11:13:12 [aboxhall]

https://w3c.github.io/coga/issue-papers/

11:14:55 [mck]

We are ready to ask for approval to publish the roadmpa tables.

11:15:21 [mck]

We are adding user stories and not just listing user needs.

11:15:35 [mck]

The intent is to help developers understand.

11:16:17 [mck]

js: proposing to resume at 2 pm.

11:16:44 [mck]

meeting with authentications at 4:30

11:16:50 [mck]

for 30 min

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14:31:55 [Sharron]

Scribe: Sharron

14:32:06 [Sharron]

Topic: EOWG conversation

14:32:30 [Sharron]

Successes - TF formed with CSS to chase down reading order, generated content, keyboard support.

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14:32:54 [Sharron]

Janina: Need to solve the problem of extensible media queries

14:33:30 [Sharron]

...will start writing proptotypes and try them out in the browser.

14:33:54 [Sharron]

...good talk with COGA

14:40:44 [Sharron]

Janina: will have breakout session on how to improve horizontal review

14:41:13 [Sharron]

...reqwuirement for accessibility in all charters and deliverables.

14:42:18 [Sharron]

...useful to document with in specs and also within development teams doing the implementations. Will point to accessibility concerns, become proactive in specs implentation for accessiiblity

14:42:37 [Sharron]

...will be joined by internatiionalization.

14:42:51 [Sharron]

...maybe security and privacy.

14:43:50 [shawn]

Sharron: EO folks meeting with other WGs & TF to remind them about EO not only produce own deliverables. Also job to support accessibility efforts of all WGs

14:44:08 [shawn]

... useful for us to be aware of @@.

14:45:04 [shawn]

Help people know we have 100 WAI EO-ish documents. We're proud of new materials. We're working on updating older docs.

14:46:24 [shawn]

... New process for EOWG participants helping to maintain docs.

14:46:55 [shawn]

... hope soon more easy-to-find, useful resources.

14:47:13 [shawn]

... Also trying again to update website.

14:48:17 [shawn]

... Also awareness of EOWG thoroughout W3C as well!

14:48:41 [shawn]

s/thoroughout W3C as well!/throughout W3C as well./

14:49:14 [shawn]

... To you: Be aware of what we're doing. How can we support each other? Check in periodically.

14:49:39 [shawn]

JaninaS: Web page good if you're involved. Not great for newbies.

14:49:52 [shawn]

... Stale.

14:49:58 [Sharron]

Janina: If you are looking for info for the first time, the APA site is pretty stale and some of the information is tale.

14:50:56 [Gottfried]

APA home page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/

14:51:39 [Sharron]

Matt: cannot get to the most important info from this page

14:52:07 [Sharron]

...must go to meeting list for that, should not have to.

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14:52:29 [Sharron]

...no link from ARIA to apa page

14:53:46 [shawn]

+1 to cleanup needed

14:55:09 [Sharron]

Shawn: I wonder if that is not something that EO could have helped with. When doing horizontal review, can help with editing. Could help with COGA docs.

14:56:11 [Sharron]

...spelling, usability, etc is something that EO should be doing and could be very useful with doing. Frees up the WG to do more technical work.

14:56:36 [shawn]

Sharron: EOWG helps with usability, understandability, readability of /TR/ docs

14:57:04 [Sharron]

Matt: requires editor access

14:57:14 [shawn]

Sharron: Need process for EO helping

14:57:49 [shawn]

JaninaS: Quality important for W3C

14:58:07 [shawn]

s/for W3C/for W3C reputation

14:59:14 [shawn]

present+ Shawn(for_part)

14:59:22 [Sharron]

Ian: Can't find anything on the WAI website, without knowing what you need already.

14:59:37 [shawn]

Eric: Working on improved findability

14:59:50 [shawn]

... with redesign

14:59:57 [Sharron]

Ian: The search is buried, weird and inconsistent.

15:00:24 [shawn]

q+ to note that we have "Smart Search" active

15:00:55 [shawn]

Ian: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Smart_Search

15:01:03 [Sharron]

Ian will help with code reviews and such.

15:01:13 [shawn]

s/Ian: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Smart_Search/Ian">https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Smart_Search/Ian - see: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Smart_Search

15:01:22 [shawn]

q-

15:02:09 [shawn]

JaninaS: We got lots covered media accessibility in HTML5

15:02:15 [Sharron]

Janina: another project set the landscape, did a bangup job in HTNL5 media work and now various WGs know to expect that there must be accessiiblity features.

15:03:05 [Sharron]

...how can people test if they don't have content that is testable?

15:03:32 [shawn]

woo ! we can use the Perspectives Videos as examples... https://www.w3.org/WAI/perspectives/

15:04:43 [Sharron]

...as a service to development community we need to make that video that allows us to amke captions in different languages, audio description, sign language versions. So when people build the right user agent, they can test on our video that has all the stuff.

15:04:56 [shawn]

[ combined video is about 10 minutes and has 10 sections... ]

15:05:53 [shawn]

s/combined video is about 10 minutes and has 10 sections.../combined video is 10+ minutes and has 10 sections...

15:06:37 [Sharron]

Jason: What if you take all the major points in WCAG2 and make a video that demonstrates the concepts so that you could provide structure as well as a test for the video player.

15:07:42 [Sharron]

Janina: Possibly governemtn or the motion picture industry.

15:08:24 [Sharron]

Joannie: Did you say a twoenty minute instructional video?

15:08:59 [Sharron]

Jason: yes why not take Janina's ideas and demonstrate people who need these features and and the developers who meet their needs.

15:10:11 [Sharron]

Joannie: I have ADHD I would not watch the whole thing. If there is a number of interviews or something maybe but it is a big expectation for anyone to watch.

15:10:45 [shawn]

SHarron: Is this mostly for demo & testing - not necessarily for watching?

15:11:09 [shawn]

q+

15:11:46 [Sharron]

Matt: We have that examples in APG so that people have the ability to test and validate.

15:12:48 [joanie]

s/I would not watch the whole thing/I might be disinclined to watch the video upon seeing the length/

15:13:01 [joanie]

s/Joannie/Joanie/g

15:13:09 [shawn]

q+ to ask Matt? "already have"? and ask for list to develop project proposal

15:13:23 [Sharron]

...apg milestones are to be simultaneous with ARIA

15:13:33 [shawn]

ack me

15:13:57 [Sharron]

Matt King and ARIA APG TF

15:15:02 [Sharron]

Shawn: Cost to develop video and in the meantime could use the ones that were just produced. Would be helpful to get a list of what we exactly want.

15:15:24 [shawn]

MAUR

15:19:10 [Sharron]

Jason: CAPTCHA document needs to be updated and will serve as liaison for Research Questions TF.

15:20:18 [shawn]

Sharron: Keep EOWG in mind. We're a resource for all of W3C.

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15:21:44 [shawn]

q+

15:23:23 [shawn]

q+ to ask MichaelC about EOWG & COGA docs

15:23:59 [shawn]

[/me thinks MichaelC walked in and would like to check with him on EOWG & COGA docs...]

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15:52:25 [MichaelC_]

topic: Joint meeting with Web Authentication

15:52:28 [MichaelC_]

@@minutes

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