IRC log of shapes on 2016-09-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:01:16 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
- 18:01:18 [Zakim]
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- Zakim, this will be SHAPES
- 18:01:20 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot
- 18:01:21 [trackbot]
- Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
- 18:01:21 [trackbot]
- Date: 08 September 2016
- 18:01:35 [pano]
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- 18:04:34 [hknublau]
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- 18:05:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- present + BartvanLeeuwen
- 18:05:03 [hknublau]
- present+
- 18:05:10 [AndyS]
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- 18:06:03 [pano]
- present+
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- 18:06:39 [AndyS]
- present+
- 18:06:41 [AndyS]
- https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08
- 18:07:17 [kcoyle]
- present+
- 18:07:34 [simonstey]
- present+
- 18:07:35 [ericP]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.08 2016-09-08 agenda
- 18:08:06 [Arnaud]
- Present+
- 18:08:38 [TallTed]
- present+
- 18:09:13 [AndyS]
- scribenick: AndyS
- 18:09:33 [ericP]
- PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes
- 18:09:39 [marqh]
- present+
- 18:10:52 [AndyS]
- topic: admin
- 18:11:17 [kcoyle]
- +1
- 18:11:22 [pano]
- +1
- 18:11:28 [Arnaud]
- +1
- 18:11:29 [simonstey]
- +1
- 18:11:31 [ericP]
- APPROVED: Approve minutes of the 1 Sept 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes
- 18:11:50 [ericP]
- topic: ISSUE-105: defined prefixes
- 18:12:09 [hknublau]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2016Sep/0003.html
- 18:12:25 [hsolbrig]
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- 18:13:34 [hsolbrig]
- present+ hsolbrig
- 18:14:31 [AndyS]
- Proposal is to have a mechanism for defining groups of prefixes
- 18:15:30 [AndyS]
- EricP: can they be links to the web or will they be in-document?
- 18:16:07 [AndyS]
- EricP: does not meet the cut&paste issue
- 18:16:28 [AndyS]
- hknublau: pre-binding makes that less valuable
- 18:16:29 [TallTed]
- q+
- 18:16:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- q+
- 18:17:14 [ericP]
- orange hung me up
- 18:17:16 [AndyS]
- marqh: I agree that snippets can't always be simply copied out so it is not a show stopper to me.
- 18:17:17 [ericP]
- reconnecting...
- 18:18:11 [AndyS]
- ... my pref is for "true SPARQL" not parts assembled.
- 18:19:21 [AndyS]
- ericP: is that feasible given the rest of SHACL? (Q to marqh and holger)
- 18:20:26 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:20:46 [AndyS]
- marqh: can't quite articulate my uneasiness - I am flagging my concerns ; happy to more on.
- 18:20:59 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:21:02 [TallTed]
- fumbling with buttons...
- 18:21:40 [AndyS]
- BartvanLeeuwen: about whether they can be web links.
- 18:21:58 [AndyS]
- EricP: I understand that they are "in document"
- 18:22:32 [AndyS]
- Holger: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select.
- 18:22:45 [AndyS]
- hknublau: in shapes graph - to activate them the sh:prefixes must be next to sh:select.
- 18:23:34 [AndyS]
- EricP: not in named graph so it is a URL and it could be elsewhere by deference.
- 18:23:47 [ericP]
- ack TallTed
- 18:23:59 [AndyS]
- ... but usually in shapes graph
- 18:24:31 [AndyS]
- TallTed: $ and ? are both variable markers in SPARQL. So it is cut-and-paste.
- 18:25:31 [AndyS]
- EricP: unconstrained variables -> more answers.
- 18:27:43 [AndyS]
- TallTed: prefixes part of SPARQL and Turtle - potential disastrous to users
- 18:28:11 [AndyS]
- ... that this mechanism does not give complete queries.
- 18:29:42 [ericP]
- q+
- 18:30:19 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:33:27 [AndyS]
- TallTed: it is a security concern
- 18:34:18 [AndyS]
- q+
- 18:34:52 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:35:18 [Arnaud]
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- 18:36:06 [ericP]
- me too
- 18:36:41 [AndyS]
- AndyS: Is this deference different to say a shape? a constraint?
- 18:37:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- q+
- 18:38:11 [AndyS]
- TallTed: I feel it is different.
- 18:38:19 [AndyS]
- AndyS: follow up in email?
- 18:38:40 [AndyS]
- BartvanLeeuwen: why not write out full queries?
- 18:38:55 [hsolbrig]
- +1 to Bart's question
- 18:39:07 [hknublau]
- q+
- 18:39:26 [AndyS]
- EricP: the reason is prefixes get used multiple times. Multiple shapes.
- 18:40:47 [AndyS]
- hknublau: from experience, users don't want to repeat the prefixes each time.
- 18:41:01 [AndyS]
- ack hknublau
- 18:41:47 [AndyS]
- ... parsing looses comments and intended layout
- 18:41:59 [hsolbrig]
- q+
- 18:42:48 [ericP]
- q- BartvanLeeuwen
- 18:42:51 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:43:29 [ericP]
- q+
- 18:43:41 [AndyS]
- hsolbrig: this reason exists because turtle prefixes not available to the SPARQL. Can we pass in from the Turtle file?
- 18:43:44 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:44:41 [AndyS]
- EricP: would need a media type, file extension because std libraries may not handle prefixes usefully.
- 18:44:57 [Arnaud]
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- 18:45:29 [AndyS]
- hsolbrig: Will there be other extensions that need this mechanism?
- 18:45:46 [AndyS]
- EricP: yes - eventually. Tempted not to go there ATM.
- 18:46:28 [TallTed]
- q+
- 18:46:35 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:46:39 [Arnaud]
- I'm sympathetic to Holger's point but I'm afraid it's a case of being doomed if you do doomed if you don't
- 18:46:40 [AndyS]
- EricP: Summary: TopQuadrant see a cost of usablity.
- 18:46:56 [hsolbrig]
- If there was some way that we could make a strong assertion that this isn't intended to be a variable passing mechanism...
- 18:47:16 [AndyS]
- TallTed: need a lot of mechanism and language to make this work.
- 18:47:42 [AndyS]
- EricP: We are already doing that via pre-binding.
- 18:48:17 [Arnaud]
- The patches among us will say let's do it, the purists will say let's no
- 18:48:46 [Arnaud]
- S/patches/practical /
- 18:49:27 [AndyS]
- There are examples in the working draft.
- 18:49:51 [hsolbrig]
- The equivalent of runtime #defines in 'C'...
- 18:54:03 [AndyS]
- "Prologue" is the right technical term in SPARQL.
- 18:54:04 [AndyS]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rPrologue
- 18:55:03 [AndyS]
- EricP : We say the SPARQL query is the prologue (as def by SPARQL) + a query fragment.
- 18:55:09 [marqh]
- q+
- 18:55:16 [ericP]
- ack next
- 18:56:15 [AndyS]
- marqh: need to define details but sounds interesting.
- 18:57:33 [AndyS]
- hknublau: looses some benefit but better than nothing. e.g. can't share prefixes across files.
- 19:00:22 [AndyS]
- EricP; marqh proposes that there is a processing mode for sh:PrefixDeclaration resources.
- 19:03:02 [hknublau]
- plus the declarative model can be queried, while a big string would be harder to use.
- 19:04:33 [AndyS]
- EricP: two proposals: Holgers (RDF) and Mark's (prefixes are a string somewhere)
- 19:04:57 [Arnaud]
- I think Ted s point is fair but maybe this deserves more thinking offline. it's enough for today. I suggest
- 19:05:54 [Arnaud]
- moving on to next agenda item
- 19:09:17 [ericP]
- STRAWPOLL: (a) decomposed prefixes in Turtle, (b) precomponsed SPARQL prologue, (c) no prefixes
- 19:09:54 [AndyS]
- I prefer to see some mechanism for reusing prefixes. As to which, I don't have an opinion ATM. i.e. "not (c)"
- 19:09:59 [pano]
- aren't we missing decomposed precomposed prologue?
- 19:10:02 [hsolbrig]
- (a)
- 19:10:35 [AndyS]
- a: +1 b:+1 c:-0.5
- 19:10:51 [hsolbrig]
- a: +0.9 b:0.1 c:-0.5
- 19:10:52 [ericP]
- a:0, b:0, c:0
- 19:10:59 [TallTed]
- a is preferable to b. some way to do this is desirable. I don't see it ready to work yet.
- 19:11:11 [kcoyle]
- aL -.5b. 0 c: +.5
- 19:11:15 [marqh]
- a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1
- 19:11:35 [marqh]
- q+
- 19:11:35 [TallTed]
- a: +0.1 b: -0.5 c: -0
- 19:12:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- a: -0.5 b: +0.5 c: 1
- 19:12:22 [AndyS]
- marqh: precompose? (reply - (b) is a defined string)
- 19:12:35 [pano]
- a: +0.9 b: +0.5 c:0
- 19:12:37 [simonstey]
- a:0 b:0.5 c: 0.9
- 19:12:59 [hknublau]
- a: +1 b: 0 c: -1
- 19:13:22 [marqh]
- q+
- 19:13:54 [AndyS]
- marqh: sending email ...
- 19:14:35 [ericP]
- topic: ISSUE-137: language tag
- 19:15:00 [simonstey]
- issue-137
- 19:15:00 [trackbot]
- issue-137 -- Missing constraint for language tag -- open
- 19:15:00 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/137
- 19:15:07 [AndyS]
- BartvanLeeuwen: intro the issue
- 19:15:24 [AndyS]
- ... I do a lot of multi-lingual work
- 19:15:54 [kcoyle]
- https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Proposals#ISSUE-137_Missing_constraint_for_language_tag
- 19:16:15 [AndyS]
- ... think lang tag handling should be in base SHACL, not an extension.
- 19:16:24 [ericP]
- ack kcoyle
- 19:16:26 [AndyS]
- q+
- 19:16:35 [ericP]
- q- marqh
- 19:16:59 [hknublau]
- q+
- 19:17:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- q+
- 19:17:17 [ericP]
- ack next
- 19:18:16 [hknublau]
- q-
- 19:19:01 [AndyS]
- kcoyle: some large case e.g. valid 3-letter tag are big tables to maintain
- 19:19:07 [ericP]
- ack next
- 19:19:09 [kcoyle]
- q+
- 19:19:32 [AndyS]
- AndyS: the list of lag tags changes over time
- 19:20:05 [AndyS]
- BartvanLeeuwen: Use shapes for UI generation.
- 19:20:07 [hknublau]
- I think adding sh:langShape [ sh:in ... ; sh:stem ... ] would cover most missing use cases.
- 19:20:18 [kcoyle]
- q+
- 19:20:20 [ericP]
- ack next
- 19:20:56 [hknublau]
- (replace sh:stem with sh:pattern above)
- 19:20:59 [AndyS]
- kcoyle: easish to work with limited lists lIbrary work work with all tags.
- 19:21:01 [AndyS]
- q+
- 19:21:05 [ericP]
- acn next
- 19:21:49 [AndyS]
- ack me
- 19:22:03 [hknublau]
- q+
- 19:22:35 [ericP]
- ack next
- 19:23:39 [AndyS]
- EricP: notes LANGMATCHES in SPARQL that applies the correct rules e.g. en and en-gb , case insenstive
- 19:24:04 [AndyS]
- EricP: concern about the whole list.
- 19:24:33 [AndyS]
- kcoyle: just adding should not be a problem
- 19:25:11 [AndyS]
- hknublau: handle as a external vocabulary.
- 19:26:12 [ericP]
- topic: meeting time
- 19:26:13 [Arnaud]
- Call time?
- 19:26:15 [ericP]
- hknublau, good early early early morning
- 19:26:23 [AndyS]
- hknublau: will apply lang proposal to each of the bullet of the use case from karen
- 19:28:19 [Arnaud]
- I can do 9 ET for an hour or on Wed for 1h1/2
- 19:30:47 [hknublau]
- Isn't there an online tool to let everyone indicate their availability?
- 19:32:47 [TallTed]
- https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
- 19:32:56 [TallTed]
- makes life easier for comparisons...
- 19:33:21 [ericP]
- PROPOSAL: futures meeting wed 0900 US Eastern
- 19:33:34 [simonstey]
- +1
- 19:33:58 [TallTed]
- https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20160908&p1=43&p2=47&p3=195
- 19:33:59 [Arnaud]
- +1
- 19:34:10 [kcoyle]
- +1
- 19:34:10 [pano]
- +0.5
- 19:34:17 [ericP]
- +1
- 19:34:58 [hknublau]
- +1
- 19:35:06 [hsolbrig]
- +1
- 19:35:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- +1
- 19:35:19 [ericP]
- APPROVED: futures meeting wed 0900 US Eastern
- 19:35:42 [Arnaud]
- Thanks ericp
- 19:35:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
- thx ericP
- 19:35:45 [AndyS]
- AndyS has left #shapes
- 19:38:20 [Arnaud]
- Tracbot, end meeting
- 19:43:09 [Arnaud_]
- Arnaud_ has joined #shapes
- 19:44:00 [Arnaud_]
- Trackbot, end meeting
- 19:44:00 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 19:44:00 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been hknublau, pano, AndyS, kcoyle, simonstey, Arnaud, TallTed, marqh, hsolbrig
- 19:44:08 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 19:44:08 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
- 19:44:09 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 19:44:09 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items