15:00:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-mobile-a11y-irc
15:00:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:00:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:00:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:41 <trackbot> Date: 08 September 2016
15:01:27 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:38 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:54 <Kim> Agenda+ Accidental Activation (finalize) - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
15:01:56 <Kim> Agenda+Touch Target (see email thread for outstanding questions) - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_SC_Target_Size
15:01:57 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:01:57 <Kim> Agenda+  Speech Input
15:01:59 <Kim> Agenda+ Next steps and schedule
15:02:09 <Kim> present+ Kim
15:02:38 <patrick_h_lauke> not sure why i'm so noisy...nothing at my end
15:02:41 <Alan_Smith> present+ Alan
15:02:48 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:02:56 <Detlev> present+ Detlev
15:02:57 <Jatin> Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:58 <patrick_h_lauke> i'll close some windows etc and see if that makes a difference
15:03:20 <David_> David_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:25 <David_> test
15:03:39 <David_> Present +1
15:03:56 <Jatin> Present +1 Jatin
15:04:27 <Detlev> q+
15:05:12 <Kim> zakim, take up next
15:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Accidental Activation (finalize) - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3" taken up [from Kim]
15:05:57 <Jatin_> Jatin_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:07:00 <patrick_h_lauke> Scribe: patrick_h_lauke
15:07:05 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Input
15:07:33 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:02 <patrick_h_lauke> [discussion on whether we want to reopen the discussion about px and target sizes, decision to stick with what we decided last week as the value is likely to be discussed further once it reaches WCAG WG]
15:08:26 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Single_Key_Shortcut_Alternative
15:08:42 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Command_Mechanism
15:09:38 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: the first one connects speech input to keyboard access.
15:10:16 <patrick_h_lauke> The second relates to turning all single character shortcuts off
15:10:58 <patrick_h_lauke> Last one related to user being able to enter a multi-character string as customised shortcut
15:11:01 <Detlev> q+
15:11:08 <patrick_h_lauke> q+
15:11:19 <David_> q+
15:11:34 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: let's start with the first
15:11:55 <patrick_h_lauke> Detlev: key question is what's impact on web content, what authors should or shouldn't do. it's not clear to me
15:12:33 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm not sure if macros etc are done at web content level, or at AT level
15:12:38 <patrick_h_lauke> or UA level
15:12:40 <David_> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#accessibility-supporteddef
15:12:55 <David_> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html
15:12:56 <patrick_h_lauke> Detlev: we should have examples of what can go wrong
15:13:14 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: if you grab keycodes before they can get to the program (user agent)
15:13:30 <patrick_h_lauke> like Google Docs takes keycodes before speech recognition programme can interpret them
15:13:35 <patrick_h_lauke> but we need more examples
15:13:44 <patrick_h_lauke> Detlev: that would be a good example
15:14:23 <patrick_h_lauke> the key thing is that it's operable through keyboard
15:14:29 <patrick_h_lauke> that's main problem
15:15:18 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: there is known issue when you do error checking, and that checking is done by capturing keystrokes rather than looking at value of input, the value is not known for instance because of how Dragon inputs text
15:15:27 <David_> https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#atdef
15:15:42 <patrick_h_lauke> results in users not being able to continue
15:15:50 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: is this Dragon's fault?
15:16:07 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: it's a Dragon issue, but also affects autocomplete in browser
15:16:18 <patrick_h_lauke> as values are injected, rather than sending keycodes
15:16:51 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: what i do is have macros that are actual keystrokes
15:17:07 <patrick_h_lauke> but should Dragon fix it?
15:17:25 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: it's still an issue for autocomplete, might be other tools
15:17:50 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: is this related to google docs (it grabs all keystrokes)
15:21:52 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: this SC seems contradictory with the other two SCs
15:22:04 <patrick_h_lauke> it seems to say, essentially from our discussion: don't intercept keystrokes
15:26:01 <Detlev> Patrick: First SC may be redundant siince we require all to be operably by KB already
15:26:21 <patrick_h_lauke> while the next two SCs talk about being able to turn them off, AND having shortcuts that are multi-chars
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15:26:45 <patrick_h_lauke> [longer discussion, also pointing to M6 that covers the validation issue mentioned by Kathy]
15:27:12 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: propose that this first SC is in fact redundant (also as keyboard access itself is already in WCAG)
15:27:31 <David_> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html
15:27:32 <patrick_h_lauke> so drop this SC, and the more specific examples/situations just discussed are covered by Kim's other two SCs and my M6
15:27:45 <patrick_h_lauke> David: agree this seems to be covered
15:27:54 <patrick_h_lauke> but examples could be moved to those other cases
15:28:03 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: agree
15:28:29 <patrick_h_lauke> so moving to the other two SCs
15:28:30 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Single_Key_Shortcut_Alternative
15:29:46 <Detlev> Patrick: Agrees that it may be coverd elsewhere - fals more to the realm of wah tthe AT should do (haviong different modes such as edit mode for text input)
15:30:09 <Detlev> Patrick (talking about the single key shortcuts)
15:32:06 <Detlev> Patrick: Pointer operable might cover alternatives to kb shortcuts
15:32:12 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: as these are SHORTcuts rather than only way to do things, turning them off shouldn't be a problem
15:33:42 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: my proposed "Pointer" SC should take care of shortcuts not being the ONLY way to trigger something
15:34:52 <patrick_h_lauke> [Kim explains how single-key shortcuts on Google Docs create problems when speech AT is on and user inadvertedly speaks, not knowing that speech AT is on and will fire commands to Google Docs]
15:35:14 <patrick_h_lauke> Alan: sentence needs clarification
15:36:44 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: is this not a problem with Dragon/AT not having clear "listen/don't listen" mode?
15:37:45 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: no modes are not efficient
15:40:18 <Detlev> Patrick: Can a mechanism to turn off/on AT resolve authors from the obligation to build turning off singlwe key shortcuts into their content?
15:40:24 <Detlev> Kim: No
15:43:28 <Detlev> Patrick: Information on modes and speech use micing commands and text input should go into benefits section
15:43:33 <patrick_h_lauke> [Kim further explains about use of speech input]
15:43:49 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: this would be good in benefits and in long run "Understanding..."
15:44:21 <patrick_h_lauke> David: more changes are editorial, should we go forward
15:44:24 <jeanne> +1
15:44:27 <marcjohlic> +1 on going fwd with it
15:44:28 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: so do we go forward?
15:44:30 <chriscm> +1
15:44:31 <patrick_h_lauke> David: +1
15:44:37 <Henny> +1
15:44:38 <Alan_Smith> +1
15:44:40 <Kathy> +1
15:44:41 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: cautious +1
15:44:44 <Jatin_> +1
15:44:45 <patrick_h_lauke> but we need techniques
15:44:46 <Detlev> +1
15:44:54 <Kim> +1
15:45:04 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Command_Mechanism
15:45:20 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_Speech_Command_Mechanism
15:45:21 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: moving to the third one, which is now the second one (since we removed first SC)
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15:46:36 <patrick_h_lauke> David: you want your shortnames being short not more than 3 or so words
15:48:23 <Detlev> Patrcik: Sites wanting to meet ths AAA SC would have to do a lot of work (settings section for defining commands etc) - the amount of work is quite large
15:49:26 <Detlev> Patrick: Multi character shortcuts are not easy to handle, you have to buffer input to look at the sequence - a lot harder than single key shortcuts
15:50:11 <Alan_Smith> +1 for AAA for this one
15:50:15 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: we may also want to align with customisation/personalisation work happening
15:50:18 <patrick_h_lauke> in COGA
15:50:28 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: want me to send message to Lisa to look at this?
15:50:42 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: yes. it might roll into theirs, or have a separate AAA, but we need to by in sync
15:50:57 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: does explanation need beefing up as well?
15:50:59 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: yes
15:51:33 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: I would prefer at AA rather than AAA, but i hear Patrick's concern and rather have this in
15:53:14 <patrick_h_lauke> hopefully in future this will be more pervasive as an option, and may well be built into a higher level (UA, AT)
15:53:47 <patrick_h_lauke> So I think i have my things to do for these
15:53:59 <patrick_h_lauke> RESOLUTION: remove first SC, beef up second and third SC
15:54:24 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements
15:54:58 <patrick_h_lauke> Kim: do you mean beef up 2nd/3rd SC and then we discuss it further?
15:55:25 <patrick_h_lauke> David: no these are more editorial, TF is happy in principle
15:56:34 <patrick_h_lauke> RESOLUTION: remove first SC, make further editorial changes to 2nd/3rd SC, send 3rd to COGA for sync
15:57:40 <David_> I think we need to docment that we have accepted 2, 3 to be submitted to the WG.
15:57:58 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements
16:00:12 <Detlev> Patrick: M1 (Pointer) and M3 (Pointer gestures) should be ready for discussion next week
16:00:42 <Detlev> https://github.com/detlevhfischer/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/patch-1/SCs/m1.md
16:00:46 <Detlev> https://github.com/detlevhfischer/Mobile-A11y-Extension/blob/patch-1/SCs/m3.md
16:00:56 <Detlev> damm wrong URL
16:01:06 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
16:01:44 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: also happy to put things into github for others
16:02:26 <patrick_h_lauke> Kathy: those marked with "x" (Reviewed by taskforce) can be put into the SC folder too
16:02:30 <patrick_h_lauke> Patrick: I'll get those in
16:02:59 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:03:07 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:03:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-mobile-a11y-minutes.html patrick_h_lauke
16:03:13 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, bye
16:03:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items