16:30:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:30:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-aria-irc
16:30:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:31:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:31:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:31:01 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:31:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:31:02 <trackbot> Date: 08 September 2016
16:31:04 <janina> present+ Janina
16:31:09 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:31:12 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:31:23 <Rich> present+ Rich_Scwherdtfeger
16:31:52 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
16:31:57 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #aria
16:32:29 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Sep/0021.html
16:32:38 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:32:38 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:32:42 <tzviya> present+
16:32:52 <MichaelC> present+ Léonie
16:34:58 <janina> scribe: Janina
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16:35:43 <janina> topic: Teleconference Length
16:35:53 <janina> rs: We've been ending early
16:36:00 <janina> rs: Much of our current work in subteams
16:36:01 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:36:12 <janina> rs: Any objection to reducing our call to 1 hour?
16:36:32 <janina> [people agreeing--no one disagreeing]
16:36:35 <ShaneM> +1
16:36:50 <clown> +1
16:37:00 <janina> mc: Suggest we should put out an announcement
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16:37:09 <janina> rs: So, cut up front? Or at the end?
16:37:18 <fesch> present+ 1
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16:37:53 <janina> jd: Believe we may need the full 1.5 hours when we get to ARIA 2.0
16:38:07 <janina> jd: Suggest we start as now, but just adjourn early
16:38:10 <JaeunKu> present+JaEunJemmaKu
16:38:17 <JaeunKu> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
16:38:38 <janina> rs: OK.
16:38:53 <janina> mc: People need to know to update calendars.
16:39:46 <ShaneM> I don't care personally - whichever
16:40:52 <janina> rs: We'll move to 1 hour, and try to keep it there.
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16:41:03 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:41:41 <janina> RESOLUTION: ARIA telecon will continue to begin at 12:30 Boston, but end in 1 hour
16:42:04 <janina> jn: This takes a 2 hour block, because corporate meetings are based on the hour
16:42:47 <janina> REESOLUTION: Meeting will begin at 13:00 Boston
16:43:04 <ShaneM> s/REESOLUTION/RESOLUTION/
16:43:12 <janina> topic: Migrating to Github
16:43:31 <janina> rs: We have outstanding issues, some of which haven't been examined in some time
16:44:02 <jamesn> +1 to having all issues in 1 place
16:44:06 <MichaelC> q+
16:44:06 <janina> rs: Should we move from tracker to github going forward?
16:44:22 <janina> clown: Trackbot has some good commands integrated into irc
16:44:36 <janina> mc: That's why we didn't move previously
16:45:22 <janina> mc: If we move, we will lose the integration--though creating irc support should be possible
16:45:29 <janina> mk: Suggest just using tags
16:45:51 <janina> mk: I really like github milestones. Tracker doesn't have anything like that
16:45:53 <MichaelC> ack me
16:46:13 <janina> Oops. I've lost audio HELP!
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16:46:31 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to write an IRC bot that will query github
16:46:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2115 - Write an irc bot that will query github [on Shane McCarron - due 2016-09-15].
16:46:50 <JF> Present+ JF
16:47:59 <janina> rs: Suggest we might want to start by migrating ARIA 2 issues
16:48:02 <JF> +1 to staqrting at ARIA 2.0
16:48:25 <janina> rs: I'd like to start tiraging 2 issues during TPAC
16:48:38 <janina> mc: Another question on github ...
16:48:48 <janina> mc: Do we want an email list link for github
16:48:52 <janina> +1 to email link
16:49:53 <janina> mk: Do we want conversations logged for archival reasons?
16:50:08 <janina> mc: A subject of much discussion--but unresolved still
16:50:40 <ShaneM> q+ to mention that web payments does it with a separate mailing list for the issue relay
16:51:00 <ShaneM> +1 to having the issues sent to a (separate) mailing list
16:51:34 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
16:51:34 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to mention that web payments does it with a separate mailing list for the issue relay
16:53:16 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to figure out how github issue relaying works for webpayments
16:53:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2116 - Figure out how github issue relaying works for webpayments [on Shane McCarron - due 2016-09-15].
16:53:25 <janina> mc: When to transition?
16:53:30 <janina> rs: ARIA 2
16:53:49 <janina> rs: Let's triage first, then move to github
16:53:55 <janina> mc: Still good to have a target
16:54:00 <janina> rs: Year's end
16:54:46 <janina> topic: CfC results -- HTML-AAM
16:55:21 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/CfC_html-aam_2016-09-01/results
16:55:31 <ShaneM> rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-aria-minutes.html ShaneM
16:56:01 <janina> rs: Prefers Web Platforms
16:56:12 <janina> rs: Think we have a decision
16:57:00 <janina> lw: Requesting quick decision email as important to Web Platforms process
16:57:25 <janina> topic: Name from Content
16:57:38 <janina> js: Found sometime to look at this
16:57:41 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1723-joseph/aria/aria.html#namefromauthor
16:58:12 <janina> clown: Don't need to list from author, as all roles support ...
16:58:19 <janina> rs: do we need to list?
16:58:21 <janina> clown: yes
16:58:38 <janina> clown: removed abstract roles from js
16:58:54 <janina> clown: Script still putting out some bad results
16:59:12 <janina> sm: Interesting
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16:59:40 <janina> sm: Don't recall, but know where to look. Did changes get merged?
16:59:41 <janina> jd: yes
16:59:43 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:00:17 <janina> rs: do we need to discuss further?
17:00:24 <janina> [crickets]
17:00:34 <janina> topic Testable Statements
17:00:55 <janina> rs: Asking Fred how it's going
17:01:13 <janina> fe: Run into an inssue as to how "not" should be represented
17:01:40 <janina> fe: Otherwise, OK. Looking to get the json and tables right
17:02:27 <ShaneM> <defined> for "exists", <undefined> for "not exists
17:02:35 <ShaneM> (for example)
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17:04:23 <janina> fe: NOting we need to get whatever is meaningful to the particular platform into the table
17:04:34 <ShaneM> have "defaults" for column 3
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17:05:35 <ShaneM> script needs to generate something sensible and predictable, but the script can do that when it creates the output.  not worried
17:05:42 <janina> fe: We need to agree on how to represent "exist" and "don't exist"
17:05:53 <janina> fe: When can always transform if need later
17:06:14 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:06:24 <janina> fe: We should resolve on the thread, because I'm out after Tuesday as things stand
17:06:50 <janina> mc: Noted
17:06:55 <ShaneM> Note that I am happy to take on evolution of the perl if there is a transition period.
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17:07:09 <janina> topic: TPAC
17:07:17 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
17:07:24 <janina> rs: Note both APA and ARIA agendae
17:07:36 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:07:57 <janina> rs: Reviewing schedule
17:08:16 <JF> Q+
17:09:17 <janina> rs: Noting the Thursday 11:00-12:30 meeting on the lowlevel API
17:10:15 <tzviya> q+ to note that 11:00 on Thursday is the same time as Publishing Community meeting about A11y and Publishing
17:11:06 <janina> jf: Will we have telecon bridge?
17:11:17 <janina> rs: Yes, and dialin OK
17:11:31 <janina> mc: Will update the Wiki
17:11:34 <Rich> q?
17:11:35 <janina> ack jf
17:12:01 <janina> ts: 11:00 slot also same as Judy & George at Dpub meeting
17:12:07 <janina> rs: Can't move, unfortunately
17:12:56 <janina> rs: Would dpub want some of the 16:00-18:00 time?
17:13:18 <janina> ts: Let me respond later
17:13:43 <janina> rs: Friday with TAG in the morning, then a discussion of input from Web Components, and probably js discussion
17:14:12 <janina> rs: Next steps discussion at end of day
17:14:16 <janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016#Agenda
17:16:15 <LJWatson> q+ to strongly recommend we do not mention longdesc at all, let alone in the title of the TPAC discussion.
17:16:34 <tzviya> q-
17:20:07 <janina> topic: A11y Object Model
17:20:13 <Rich> http://a11y-api.github.io/a11y-api/spec/
17:23:24 <jcraig> what's the webex pass again?
17:24:42 <janina> s/w3c//
17:24:45 <janina> s/w3c//
17:25:36 <janina> rs: Not sure our remaining time is sufficient!
17:25:57 <jcraig> okay. see you at TPAC then
17:27:19 <jcraig> okay. installing the WebEx plug-in :-/
17:27:52 <jamesn> you can just dial in if you like
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17:31:47 <janina> present+ jcraig
17:32:45 <janina> jc: api tries to provide underlying a11y structur
17:33:23 <janina> jc: Also covering things like canvas and webgl
17:33:42 <janina> jc: want to make sure we can make those accessible
17:34:16 <janina> jc: proposals were closely related to vendors proposing them
17:35:33 <janina> jc: accessibility-activate is our version of click
17:36:08 <janina> mk: We're unable to distinguish between real mouse click and emulated screen reader click
17:36:12 <janina> jc: This will help
17:36:55 <janina> jc: Still concerned that a mouse substitute can be divulged
17:37:44 <janina> jc: Most of the spec doesn't rely on anything with privacy implications
17:39:11 <janina> mk: Notes it's easy on native apps to distinguish
17:39:30 <janina> mk: can't do that on the web, and would be helpful
17:40:06 <janina> jc: Apps get levels of access that aren't necessarily available via the web interface
17:40:38 <janina> jc: We know some third parties are misuisng this kind of info
17:40:59 <janina> /party/party websites /
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17:43:17 <janina> jc: Looking to prompt the insert when necessary, and give site the opportunity to explain why
17:43:37 <janina> rs: Anything about user prefs? or just interoperability for now?
17:43:44 <janina> jc: User prefs still in CSS
17:45:04 <janina> rs: Recalling that doing more with media queries was a CSS issue
17:45:12 <janina> jc; Yes, but when there was no OS setting
17:46:00 <janina> jc: Recalls first IndieUI at Lyon
17:46:12 <janina> jc: the GPII scope scared most people away
17:46:38 <janina> rs: We're recently told "no more with media queries"
17:48:55 <janina> rs: One iterest is a mq for expose or hide ARIA-Details
17:51:59 <Rich> 12:00-13:00 lunch
17:52:00 <Rich>     13:00-15:00 ARIA-Details Discovery
17:53:13 <janina> jc: Think the Details discoverability should be addressed by getting a native OS setting first
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17:54:14 <janina> jc: Suggest not fishing for solutions, but to gring forward specific proposals
17:54:35 <janina> jf: Notes our proposals have been rejected, so would like to hear counter proposals that meet the requirements
17:54:58 <janina> jc: Propos how a user can set a custom CSS setting
17:55:32 <janina> jc: Media queries extensibility is likely
17:55:59 <janina> jc: Maybe not likely, but a good concrete proposal
17:56:40 <janina> jf: Notes the history of pain around custom style sheets
17:57:05 <janina> rs: Would like to see extensible mq, so we could use browser plugin
17:57:24 <jcraig> s/Media queries extensibility is likely/Media queries extensibility is a concrete propsal you coudl take for discussion/
17:58:52 <janina> rs: Noting that dpub authors already extending the browser by design
17:59:17 <janina> zakim, bye
17:59:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Scwherdtfeger, ShaneM, Joseph_Scheuhammer, MichaelC, tzviya, Léonie, Bryan_Garaventa, 1,
17:59:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:59:20 <Zakim> ... JaEunJemmaKu, JF, LJWatson, matt_king, jongund, jcraig
17:59:22 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-aria-minutes.html janina
17:59:29 <jcraig> s/Maybe not likely, but a good concrete proposal/just a suggestion. take a problem for discussion with a proposed solution, rather than just an open-ended problem./
18:00:03 <jcraig> s/Media queries extensibility/Media feature extensibility/
18:00:55 <jcraig> s/third parties are misuisng/third-party web sites are misusing/
18:03:26 <jcraig> s/Apps get levels of access that aren't necessarily available via the web interface/Apps get levels of access due to an implicit understanding that they are being installed. Simplying visiting a website doesn't illicit the same level of trust with a user, so we want to protect as much private information about the user as possible. Especially from third-party advertisers./
18:06:33 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
18:08:29 <jcraig> s/api tries to provide underlying a11y structur/Accessibility Object Model (AOM) provides easy property accessors to underlying a11y structure. Augments ARIA. Does not replace or extend it./
18:10:07 <jcraig> s/Also covering things like canvas and webgl/Also intended to provide an API for entirely virtual trees like WebGL or Canvas 2D Context. These are in shipping products throughout the Web and they are currently accessibility black holes due to no proposed API./
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18:11:38 <jcraig> s/proposals were closely related to vendors proposing them/The vendors proposals (IndieUI, Mozilla AAPI, Microsott WAPA, etc) were all trying to solve similar problems, but failed due to a number of problems; primariy too few agreements early on./
18:12:06 <jcraig> no. just correcting some of the minutes
18:12:12 <tzviya> thanks
18:13:39 <jcraig> s/Still concerned that a mouse substitute can be divulged/TBD is the privacy requirements for events that may divulge user specific modalities or AT. Working very hard to ensure privacy./
18:14:49 <jcraig> s/accessibility-activate is our version of click/there is an event like "accessibility activate" when standard click is insufficient/
18:15:45 <jcraig> s/User prefs still in CSS/User prefs for items with native equivalents are still being actively considered for CSS Media Features/
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