18:01:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:01:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-irc
18:01:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:01:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:01:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:01:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
18:01:40 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:01:40 <trackbot> Date: 01 September 2016
<Arnaud> chair: ericP
<Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2016.09.01
18:02:43 <simonstey> present+
18:02:53 <hknublau> present+
18:02:58 <pano> present+
18:03:12 <marqh> marqh has joined #shapes
18:03:31 <kcoyle> present+
18:04:02 <Arnaud> hi all
18:04:15 <Arnaud> I'm trying to get connected
18:04:37 <Arnaud> I'm running on a crippled env so, not sure how this is going to work out
18:04:48 <ericP> present+
18:04:55 <marqh> present+
18:05:00 <kcoyle> It's Brussels, Arnaud. You can't connect from Brussels
18:05:13 <ericP> Zakim, who's here?
18:05:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see marqh, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, Dimitris, pano, kcoyle, hknublau, simonstey, ericP, trackbot
18:05:24 <Arnaud> especially when you don't have internet installed yet :)
18:05:25 <Dimitris> present+
18:05:25 <ericP> present+ Dimitris
<Arnaud> topic: Admin
18:05:36 <ericP> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 25 August 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/08/25-shapes-minutes
18:06:16 <hknublau> +1
18:06:24 <pano> +1
18:06:27 <simonstey> +1
18:06:29 <ericP> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 25 August 2016 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2016/08/25-shapes-minutes
18:06:30 <kcoyle> +1
18:06:33 <Dimitris> +1
18:07:20 <ericP> DONE: Dimitris to send a thank you to pfps, linking https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Public_Comments#Peter.27s_Email_2016-08-16
18:07:44 <ericP> no regrets for next meeting
18:07:56 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-150
18:08:50 <ericP> in last week's exciting espisode, we conclused that SHACL does not treat sh:Violation differently from other severities to determine if a node validates against a shape
18:09:26 <kcoyle> scribenick:kcoyle
18:10:37 <Dimitris> in section 3: validation definition
18:10:42 <kcoyle> eric:question - is there any place in spec where there is idea of declaring whether node validations against shape
18:10:52 <Dimitris> no, it is standalone
18:11:50 <Dimitris> q+
18:12:15 <kcoyle> eric: asking Dimitris re: nesting of errors: Dimitris prefers least severe "win" when validating; kcoyld and Arnaud prefer most severe;
18:12:20 <ericP> ack next
18:12:23 <kcoyle> ... other options is to base on nesting position
18:12:57 <Arnaud> no, Arnaud prefers outermost wins
18:13:06 <kcoyle> Dimitris:  prefer that outer shape overrides all; this is simplest solutionl
18:13:14 <Arnaud> but I can live with the other way around
18:13:33 <kcoyle> eric: simplist is that inner defines it - don't have to pass parameters or filter erros
18:14:12 <kcoyle> Dimitris: when severity defined in nesting would not be allowed; if severity defined then nesting position not taken into account
18:14:41 <kcoyle> eric: inner shape wins; can validate without awareness of cntext of outer severity
18:15:03 <kcoyle> Dimitris: nesting is subjective; simple approach should win
18:15:24 <kcoyle> eric: what you do gets more complicated as you nest down
18:15:53 <simonstey> it's def. better than ignoring the sev. of the nested shape(s)
18:16:13 <kcoyle> eric: smplest approach - severity defined by innermost shape
18:16:45 <simonstey> what if there's no "inner most" shape?
18:17:09 <ericP> PROPOSED: the severity of violations of nested shapes is determined only by the severity of the constraint in which the violation occured
18:18:43 <Dimitris> recursion is undefined anyway in SHACL
18:18:51 <simonstey> +1
18:18:57 <kcoyle> eric: much of this depends on recursion
18:19:02 <kcoyle> q+
18:19:10 <ericP> ack next
18:19:49 <Arnaud> present+
18:19:53 <simonstey> q+
18:20:57 <ericP> ack next
18:21:07 <kcoyle> +0
18:21:42 <Dimitris> +.05
18:21:45 <Dimitris> +.5
18:23:08 <kcoyle> holger: what about a case with A or B? and both are validated?
18:23:41 <Dimitris> q+
18:23:41 <kcoyle> eric: explaining a nested constraint
18:24:06 <kcoyle> hknublau: I would prefer not to have any relationship between these. Whatever is defined locally is used
18:24:08 <ericP> ack next
18:25:00 <kcoyle> Dimitris: if I have a nested shape and both fail, if inner shape has two severities
18:25:16 <kcoyle> hknublau: system will have to evaluate all of them to find out what the severity is
18:25:47 <kcoyle> Dimitris: neither solution is perfect
18:26:55 <simonstey> that was also my understanding
18:27:08 <hknublau> +1
18:27:14 <kcoyle> hknublau: this is compatible with current SPARQL queries
18:27:23 <marqh> +1
18:27:25 <pano> +1
18:27:44 <ericP> RESOLVED: the severity of violations of nested shapes is determined only by the severity of the constraint in which the violation occured
18:28:23 <Arnaud_crippled> holger is right
18:28:30 <Arnaud_crippled> issue-150 can be closed
18:28:43 <ericP> PROPOSED: close issue-150
18:28:47 <hknublau> +1
18:28:47 <Dimitris> +1
18:28:48 <marqh> +1
18:28:50 <kcoyle> _1
18:28:53 <ericP> RESOLVED: close issue-150
18:28:54 <simonstey> +1
18:28:56 <pano> +1
18:29:00 <kcoyle> +1
18:29:14 <hknublau> q+
18:29:28 <Arnaud_crippled> s/close issue-150/close issue-150 based on previous two resolutions/
18:27:56 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-105
18:27:59 <kcoyle> ISSUE-105
18:27:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- SHACL SPARQL constraints depend on namespaces in a graph, which is not defined -- open
18:27:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/105
18:29:44 <kcoyle> hknublau: introduction: raised by Peter; for SPARQL extension; is curently unspecified
18:30:01 <kcoyle> ... should sparql queries reference prexies that are used somewhere else?
18:30:04 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #shapes
<TallTed> present+
18:30:17 <kcoyle> ... SELECT ... WEHRE... rdfs:label...
18:30:53 <kcoyle> ... conservative is either use whole URI or always include prefix in sparql query - thus always self-contained
18:31:19 <kcoyle> ... other approaches: have mechanism in graph holding shapes to declare prefixes globallyt (H's preference)
18:31:35 <kcoyle> .... means don't need to repeat prefixes
18:31:45 <hknublau> <http://namespace#> sh:prefix "ex"
18:32:04 <kcoyle> ... examples of namespace declaration
18:32:37 <kcoyle> engine would use those prefix declarations into query
18:32:43 <TallTed> present+
18:34:04 <kcoyle> hknublau: would put it in OWL ontology - will be there when OWL import used
18:34:22 <kcoyle> ericP: you are making assertions about someone else mainspace?
18:34:33 <TallTed> s/mainspace/namespace/
18:34:51 <TallTed> q+
18:35:09 <ericP> ack next
18:35:11 <kcoyle> hknublau: most files already have namespace declarations; usually clear one-to-one mapping
18:35:19 <ericP> ack next
18:35:50 <kcoyle> TallTed: in my experience collisions happen - multiple prefixes for same namespace are used
18:36:03 <kcoyle> ... i can see this as an import mechansim, but not sure how to make this work
18:36:19 <hknublau> q+
18:36:22 <kcoyle> ... enviornmental setting could be specific, but on large scale more problem than solution
18:36:26 <ericP> ack next
18:36:52 <kcoyle> hknublau: in case of dcterms/dct can declare both prefixes for same namespace
18:37:17 <kcoyle> ... problem lies where same prefix used for different namespaces
18:37:21 <ericP> Turtle:
18:37:26 <ericP> PREFIX ex: <http://a.example/>
18:37:42 <ericP> <> sh:globalPrefixDeclList ([sh:prefix "ex"; sh:ns <http://a.example/>]).
18:37:58 <ericP> <S1> sh:constraint "ASK { ex:...}" .
18:38:32 <kcoyle> ericP: either way we have to duplicate prefixes both in turtle prolog and in an rdf structure
18:38:55 <kcoyle> ... this is a variation of holger's proposal - made global list
18:39:11 <kcoyle> ... not stick assertions onto nodes where describing someone else's namespace
18:39:26 <marqh> q+
18:39:44 <kcoyle> TallTed: no, this doesn't assuage my concern; point is to provide shorthand for sparql
18:40:21 <kcoyle> ... when you have multiply declared prefix, whether or not same namespace, sparql 1.1 kicks back an error
18:40:51 <ericP> ack next
18:40:56 <kcoyle> ... anyone who makes conformant sparql queries (including prefixes) runs risk of error
18:41:37 <kcoyle> marqh: don't see extra benefit; might write this in a tool that makes complicated shapes, but not if doing quick by hand
18:41:42 <hknublau> q+
18:41:44 <kcoyle> ... feels like this comes at a price
18:42:00 <ericP> ack next
18:43:00 <kcoyle> hknublau: benefit is for people writing turtle files by hand; believe majority of rdf developers are writing turtle by hand
18:43:38 <kcoyle> ... in a tool, you could extend prefixes; or insert them in the beginning
18:44:00 <kcoyle> ... believe users want to see only minimal
18:44:43 <kcoyle> TallTed: the tool can hide prefix declarations; turtle file that results must include jprefix declarations
18:44:52 <kcoyle> ... even most common namespaces
18:45:43 <kcoyle> hknublau: prefixes of turtle files are unrelated
18:46:01 <kcoyle> TallTed: prefix declaration does not survive serialization
18:46:25 <kcoyle> ... but if prefix not there, it's an error
18:46:46 <kcoyle> hknublau: when someone writes a shape, they know what graph they are in
18:46:57 <kcoyle> TallTed: but reuse... then what happens?
18:49:01 <kcoyle> Dimitris: see Ted's point, just re-use parameters, which would minimize need to re-write sparql queries
18:49:48 <kcoyle> simonstey: see both points; implementation-wise see Holger's point
18:50:00 <kcoyle> ... but also see Ted's because easier to implement but can cause problems
18:50:34 <kcoyle> ... more in favor of an error-proof solution;
18:51:14 <kcoyle> pano: same as simon, but leaning towards what Holger is saying - it should also be easy to write sparql
18:51:37 <kcoyle> ...queries and use prefixes
18:52:19 <kcoyle> ... if you want to re-use shapes need to be careful
18:52:44 <kcoyle> TallTed: the shapes that you produce will not be reusable because not conformant
18:53:17 <ericP> STRAWPOLL: a: some prefix mechanism, b: no no no!
18:53:30 <ericP> STRAWPOLL: a: some prefix mechanism, b: no prefix mechanism
18:53:53 <hknublau> a) +1 b) -1
18:54:41 <Dimitris> q+
18:54:46 <simonstey> q+
18:55:45 <kcoyle> Dimitris: This is another which has precedence issue
18:56:01 <ericP> ack next
18:56:08 <ericP> ack next
18:56:40 <kcoyle> simonstey: can we say - you have to write correct sparql queries in your shacl constraints including prefix declarations
18:57:05 <kcoyle> ... you have to specify respective namespaces; you might want to consider using a tool to
18:57:16 <kcoyle> ... automatically include this in all sparql queries
18:57:29 <kcoyle> ... this is where tools improve user experience
18:59:28 <TallTed> for example...  four namespaces are in fact associated with `dc:`, in the wild -- http://prefix.cc/dc
18:59:41 <marqh> a) 0 b) +1
19:00:03 <hknublau> q+
19:00:33 <kcoyle> hknublau: there is a safe mechanism because the sparql queries are embeded in objects
19:00:50 <kcoyle> ... tools could use standard and local prefixes
19:01:28 <kcoyle> TallTed: what's "standard"?
19:01:32 <TallTed> http://prefix.cc/sh
19:01:41 <TallTed> has two wild namespaces
19:01:41 <kcoyle> a) -1 b) +1
19:02:03 <simonstey> a) 0 b) 1
19:02:12 <TallTed> a: -0.9    b: +0.9
19:02:28 <pano> a) +0.1 b) -0.1
19:02:37 <Dimitris> a) 0 b) 0.5
19:04:04 <kcoyle> hknublau: prefix declaration extends other prefix declaration
19:04:24 <kcoyle> TallTed: concatenates sh:prefix with sh:query... or something like that;
19:04:46 <kcoyle> ... there might be various levels, subclasses... subpredicates
19:04:56 <kcoyle> hknublau: I will write proposal for next week
19:05:21 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-137
19:05:30 <kcoyle> ISSUE-137
19:05:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-137 -- Missing constraint for language tag -- open
19:05:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/137
19:06:27 <kcoyle> q+
19:06:28 <ericP> sh:hasLanguageTag
19:06:48 <TallTed> s/subclasses... subpredicates/subpredicates like system, user, etc./
19:07:16 <ericP> kcoyle: it's not just that it has *a* language tag, or even a specific language tag, but also unique language tag
19:07:24 <hknublau> q-
19:07:34 <ericP> ack next
19:07:37 <ericP> ack next
19:08:12 <kcoyle> ericP: uniqueLang does #3 of kcoyle's three
19:09:30 <kcoyle> ... 'hasLanguageTag" - can it use the more complex language tags?
19:09:48 <Dimitris> that is sh:datatype rdf:langString
19:09:51 <hknublau> For that we already have sh:datatype rdf:langString
19:11:03 <Dimitris> I think that a sh:languageTagIn ( "en" "fr" ... ) is more useful
19:11:25 <kcoyle> I like that, Dimitris
19:12:00 <kcoyle> ericP: there's class and type includes to see if it's in a particular set
19:12:54 <kcoyle> ... analogous to what we do already with typing
19:13:19 <kcoyle> hknublau: don't hhave classIn anymore; using or
19:13:46 <TallTed> need to check...  1. every value has unique langtag; 2. there's a value for every langtag in list; 3. there are no values with langtags not in this list; 4. there is at least one value with a langtag in list; 5. ?
19:13:49 <kcoyle> ericP: sh:in is an enumerative property; value must be in list
19:14:44 <kcoyle> good list Ted. Maybe we need to put this in wiki
19:16:06 <kcoyle> ericP: this is a matrix
19:16:46 <ericP> STRAWPOLL: a: persue Bart's language tags, b: drop for now
19:17:03 <kcoyle> a: +1 b: -.5
19:17:05 <TallTed> "at least one of" , "at least all of" , "no more than" ; "uniquness" is distinct
19:17:10 <hknublau> a) -0.5 b) +1 (easily handled by extension mechanism)
19:17:17 <TallTed> s/persue/pursue/
19:17:38 <simonstey> a) 0.8 b) 0.1
19:17:42 <Dimitris> a) +.5 b) 0
19:17:47 <pano> a)0 b)0
19:17:47 <TallTed> a: +0.5  b: -0.5
19:18:17 <TallTed> s/uniquness/uniqueness/
19:18:47 <TallTed> s/"at least one of" ,/"none of" , "at least one of" ,/
19:19:16 <ericP> ACTION: kcoyle to create some wiki documentation exploring the requirements
19:19:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Create some wiki documentation exploring the requirements [on Karen Coyle - due 2016-09-08].
19:20:12 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-71
19:20:28 <kcoyle> ISSUE-71
19:20:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- SHACL Endpoint Protocol -- open
19:20:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/71
19:20:49 <kcoyle> hknublau: similar to what sparql endpoints provide - a web proptocal that would define how people can
19:21:10 <kcoyle> send a complete shapes graph to a database and shacl would return result
19:21:17 <kcoyle> ... willing to withdraw it
19:22:12 <kcoyle> ericP: using something like this in shex; can be used to evaluate sets you don't want to move around
19:22:31 <kcoyle> ... i'm going to test this node against this remote shape
19:22:35 <kcoyle> q+
19:23:24 <kcoyle> ... it's simple - there's a shape, a node,
19:23:29 <ericP> ack next
19:23:58 <hknublau> q+
19:24:40 <hknublau> q-
19:24:41 <ericP> ack next
19:25:21 <kcoyle> kcoyle: is this the library case? going against remote vocabularies?
19:25:30 <kcoyle> hknublau: yes, same use case
19:26:33 <kcoyle> kcoyle: is this part of the standard? or separate?
19:26:47 <kcoyle> kcoyle: could this be a related standard?
19:26:56 <hknublau> Without a standard, each database vendor will invent their own protocol.
19:27:17 <kcoyle> ericP: a way in shex to say that this is external
19:30:31 <ericP> ACTION: kcoyle to document library use cases for (remote) validation protocol
19:30:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Document library use cases for (remote) validation protocol [on Karen Coyle - due 2016-09-08].
19:30:34 <kcoyle> kcoyle: opposes closing this without more investigation of use cases
19:31:02 <ericP> ADJOURNED
19:31:29 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes
19:40:16 <Arnaud_crippled> trackbot, end meeting
19:40:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:40:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been simonstey, hknublau, pano, kcoyle, ericP, marqh, Dimitris, Arnaud, TallTed
19:40:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:40:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:40:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:40:25 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-actions.rdf :
19:40:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kcoyle to create some wiki documentation exploring the requirements [1]
19:40:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-irc#T19-19-16
19:40:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kcoyle to document library use cases for (remote) validation protocol [2]
19:40:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-shapes-irc#T19-30-31