15:02:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-mobile-a11y-irc
15:02:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:02:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:02:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:02:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:02:17 <trackbot> Date: 01 September 2016
15:02:25 <Kathy_> zakim, this will be 6283
15:02:26 <Zakim> ok, Kathy_
15:02:44 <Kathy_> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF
15:02:55 <Kathy_> chair: Kathy
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15:03:17 <Detlev> Scribe: Detlev
15:03:32 <Detlev> Kathy: We are behind schedule
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15:03:46 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:03:49 <Detlev> KW: Have to do one per week
15:04:02 <Detlev> present+ Detlev
15:04:07 <Jatin> present+ Jatin
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15:04:33 <Detlev> KW: Please respond to emails asking for feedback for finalising SCs
15:04:38 <patrick_h_lauke> (early warning: need to duck out early from this call for childminding)
15:04:47 <Detlev> KW: Your feedback is critical
15:05:11 <dmacdona> present+ davidmacdonald
15:05:25 <Detlev> KW: Have to finalise Accidental activation and touch target today - othwerwise will be finalised on list
15:05:40 <kim> kim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:43 <Kathy_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.3
15:05:55 <Detlev> KW: Last week we made revisions to Accidental activation SC
15:07:01 <Detlev> DMD: We need the language of the SC itself - many things can be revised later, like examples and benefits
15:07:27 <Detlev> DMD: Broad strokes most important
15:07:37 <Detlev> KW: But get language right
15:08:09 <Detlev> KW: Any concerns regarding other aspects of SC (benefits etc.)?
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15:08:38 <Detlev> KW: Not going back to SCs that have already been sent to WCAG WG
15:08:54 <Detlev> KW: Focus on Accidental activation and touc htarget today
15:09:01 <Detlev> KW: Any comments?
15:09:16 <Detlev> KW: Consider this final?
15:09:32 <Detlev> DMD: Note should be added to collect feedback
15:10:30 <Detlev> KW: Resolution: SC No Accidental Activation has been accepted, ready for WG review
15:10:48 <Kathy_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_SC_Target_Size
15:11:01 <Detlev> KW: Next one is Touch Target Size
15:11:35 <Detlev> KW: A lot of back and fortth, changes, info on evidence, diverging recommendation
15:12:07 <Detlev> KW: Question to input sizes for touch and mouse/pencil activation
15:12:29 <Detlev> KW: Please read SC text no, for a few miutes, then let's discuss
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15:13:01 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:13:24 <Detlev> KW: Comments on coarse and fine pointing accuracy?
15:14:31 <Detlev> PL: As commented research papers have a lot of grey areas - studies were in controlled environments with fixed size screens - our issue is that we don't know usera' device size
15:14:54 <Detlev> PL: That's why we focus on CSS pixels
15:15:56 <Detlev> PL: Size for web buttons on small mobile devices may be excessive - viewing distance should be taken into account (closer usually with phones, so larger relative size)
15:16:27 <Detlev> PL: Research is interesting but data from Apple / Google / Microsift guidance possibly more relevant
15:17:05 <Detlev> PL: Apple goes for 44 (like BBC), Google goes for 48 px - 50 would be a round number
15:17:18 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:17:54 <Detlev> PL: We just pickled 20 px with no clear guidance, could make it 25 px (half od large pointer target size)
15:17:58 <Detlev> q*
15:18:01 <Detlev> q+
15:18:52 <Detlev> CM: does 24 / 46 make sense if ratio / scaling od CSS pixels is added?
15:19:06 <Detlev> LP: Depends on dpi of device
15:19:42 <dmacdona> q+
15:20:03 <patrick_h_lauke> getting lots of interference on the line
15:20:26 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm call-in 3 and am muted
15:20:57 <patrick_h_lauke> detlev might be your line
15:22:31 <marcjohlic> q+
15:23:13 <marcjohlic> q-
15:23:14 <Detlev> PL: 44 px is a good value - the issue with too little buttons on screen referred to a much larger value (150 px)
15:24:10 <patrick_h_lauke> 50's good for me
15:24:20 <Detlev> KW: MIT study arrived at 44-57 px - my preference would be at the higher end, say 50 px
15:24:33 <Detlev> DMD: agrees
15:25:06 <Detlev> DMD: Better to start with a larger requirement and then reduce it in negotiations than the othe rway round
15:26:09 <patrick_h_lauke> 50 / 26
15:26:16 <Detlev> PL: different terms effective pixes, density pixels all map onto CSS pixels
15:26:20 <jeanne> +1 50 and 26
15:26:28 <chriscm> +1 50 and 26
15:26:35 <Detlev> KW: Any objections to 50 / 25 pixels?
15:27:09 <dmacdona> DO we want 26 or 25 for the small?
15:27:31 <Detlev> MJ: The most relaible thing woulf be using actual millimeters but we have no way of measuring it across devices - hopes that manufactures CSS calculations are correct
15:28:08 <Detlev> PL: usinf CSS pixels will be more accurate because there is no way of testing it across devices
15:28:36 <Detlev> MJ: Similar issue with contraast, actual screen contrast on different devices
15:28:56 <Detlev> PL: Same way device differences cannot be factored in
15:29:23 <Detlev> KP: does it more sense to pick 24/28 px?
15:30:21 <Detlev> CM: No technical reason to pick one over the other - would there be less pushback if measures match Google's suggestion?
15:31:17 <Detlev> KW: We have some evidence from research that larger target sizes make things easier - device manufacturers have different values anyway - so we cab just as well round to 50
15:32:04 <Detlev> PL: Problem migh rtbe that 48 would already fail where Google suggests the nearly identical 49 px could be annoying
15:32:11 <Detlev> DMD agrees
15:32:41 <Detlev> KW; that happened with color contrast, ISO standard slightly lower
15:32:57 <marcjohlic> +1 to 48 as our starting point
15:33:00 <Detlev> CM: Developers would leave ot at 48 if 50 is required
15:34:55 <Detlev> detsiled calculations of pix vs. mm conversions, too much to script)
15:35:45 <Detlev> PL: difference betwee 50 and 48 px  is less than .4 mm
15:35:55 <patrick_h_lauke> 24/48
15:36:04 <chriscm> +1 48 and 24
15:36:05 <jeanne> +1 48 and 24
15:36:11 <Jatin> +1 48 and 24
15:36:21 <patrick_h_lauke> q+ to talk about "CSS pixel" definition
15:36:25 <Detlev> +1
15:36:31 <Detlev> Resolution: target size is 48 and 24 px
15:36:59 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_SC_Target_Size
15:37:27 <Detlev> KW: Change to definition of CSS pixels under Related Glossary additions or changes - please have a look nw
15:37:34 <patrick_h_lauke> yeah current definition is slightly back-to-front
15:37:46 <Kathy_> q?
15:37:52 <Detlev> q-
15:38:17 <chriscm> q+
15:39:18 <Detlev> PL: CSS pixel definiton should have addition in brackets (when the page is using the device'S ideal viewpoint)
15:39:39 <Detlev> viewport, not viewpoint
15:39:53 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/
15:39:59 <Detlev> PL: pointer spec references CSS spec
15:40:36 <Detlev> PL: should not be defined sepearately but part of the SC text
15:40:41 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/
15:41:34 <Detlev> KW: Changes text / definition
15:42:41 <Detlev> CM: for natiove apps CSS px is useless - there are conversions though
15:43:26 <Detlev> KW: Focus is web stuff now - if applied to nave there would be more about conversion to native environments
15:43:48 <Detlev> PL: A note could be added to point to the resp. native environments and their terminologies
15:44:56 <Detlev> KW: Description, evidence, examples, testability (new) - may be change to ideal viewport needed?
15:45:02 <Detlev> PL: makes sense
15:46:06 <Detlev> PL: Question about "larger than vs. larger or equal to"
15:46:12 <Detlev> KW (changes text)
15:46:32 <Detlev> KW: Any other changes needed?
15:47:01 <Detlev> KW: Can we finalise this?
15:47:02 <patrick_h_lauke> ship it!
15:47:07 <Detlev> +1
15:47:11 <jon_avila> agree
15:47:45 <Detlev> Resolution: SC  Target Size is accepted
15:47:53 <Kathy_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements
15:48:08 <Detlev> KW: Schedule for SC submission
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15:48:24 <Detlev> KW: Kim is working on Speech SC
15:48:51 <Detlev> KW: PL is working on several - need to reassign work?
15:49:37 <Detlev> KP: Three SC on speech - feedback is welcome, mail Kim
15:50:32 <Detlev> KP: it's M12
15:50:39 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria_Submission_Requirements
15:50:40 <Detlev> KW: M12 is empty
15:51:19 <Detlev> KP: On main wiki page -
15:51:25 <Detlev> KW:  put on timeline document
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15:52:16 <Detlev> KW: Patrick - split soemtzhing off? Will chat to Detlev Chris
15:52:27 <Detlev> I can pick something up
15:53:09 <Detlev> KW: Will package the ones now agreed
15:53:59 <Detlev> PL: There were questions on WCG WG call about touch with AT on - comment it might be too specific, reference to desktop / keyboard with AT on
15:54:36 <Detlev> PL: Wonders whether it is worth merging the Touch + AT and Keyboard + AT to a more generic SC
15:55:12 <Detlev> KW: We shoulf stick with what we have now, can be merged later by WG
15:55:39 <Detlev> KW: First get feedback, then revisit after Dec 1
15:56:19 <Detlev> KW: closes call
15:56:29 <Jatin> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_2.0_Techniques_Applicable_to_Mobile_without_Changes
15:57:00 <patrick_h_lauke> need to shoot off
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15:57:10 <Detlev> Jatin: Looking for a technique for mobile accessibility ? (not fully understood by scibe)
15:57:20 <Kathy_> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/MobileTechniques/
15:57:35 <Kathy_> https://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-accessibility-mapping/
15:57:43 <Detlev> Jatin: Applicable to native mobile?
15:58:11 <Detlev> KW: respective applicability should be visible on techniques
15:59:40 <Kathy_> zakim, list attendees
15:59:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been patrick_h_lauke, Detlev, Jatin, davidmacdonald, jon_avila, marcjohlic
15:59:53 <Kathy_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy_
16:00:04 <Kathy_> rrsagent, make logs public
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