16:29:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:29:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/25-aria-irc
16:29:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:29:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:29:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:29:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:29:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:29:27 <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2016
16:29:49 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:29:59 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:30:03 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:30:43 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
16:31:30 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria
16:31:57 <jongund_> present+ jongund
16:32:11 <janina> present+ Janina
16:32:42 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Aug/0221.html
16:32:50 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:34:02 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:35:21 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:35:38 <fesch> action-1723
16:35:38 <trackbot> action-1723 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Editorial - create sections listing the roles that provide (1) nameFrom:author and (2) nameFrom:contents -- due 2016-08-17 -- OPEN
16:35:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1723
16:36:10 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1723/aria/aria.html#namefromauthor
16:36:26 <fesch> JD: want to do automatically, all roles support name from author expect one role
16:36:29 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1723/aria/aria.html#namefromcontent
16:36:49 <fesch> jd: name from content
16:37:44 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:38:32 <fesch_> jd: do folks agree a section with all roles except two is unneeded
16:38:34 <fesch_> fesch_ has joined #aria
16:38:49 <fesch_> rs: thoughts?
16:39:04 <fesch_> scribe: fesch_
16:39:28 <fesch_> mc: maybe say roles name from author...
16:39:49 <fesch_> rs: would be nice to shrink to have smaller lists
16:40:15 <fesch_> jd: name from author is on all... some have name required... can get from content
16:40:25 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:40:34 <fesch_> present+ fesch
16:41:00 <fesch_> rs: I think you should have a table
16:41:29 <fesch_> rs: a lot of time people will put a label on top of content that isn't needed
16:41:53 <fesch_> mk: will have authoring guidance on that...
16:42:34 <fesch_> mc: in authoring practices would be non-normative, but would give Joseph a place to look
16:43:19 <fesch_> rs: name from content in authoring practices would be fine (as a table)
16:43:49 <fesch_> jd: Joseph wants a list to link to
16:44:07 <fesch> jd: might make sense to have it both places
16:44:14 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:44:58 <fesch> mk: having it two places is good, authors don't know what name from author and name from content means
16:45:55 <fesch> mc: it is OK to have in both places, spec would have a minimal version, authoring practices the useful one, but not duplicate everything
16:46:40 <fesch> mk: In APG I could have a column for each
16:46:57 <fesch> mk: Michael how do you get automatically generated?
16:47:12 <fesch> mc: Shane's script can be migrated...
16:47:33 <fesch> rs: does anyone have any issues with name from XXX?
16:47:37 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:48:10 <fesch> rs: does anyone have name required as a separate column or an astrick?
16:48:49 <fesch> mc: we need to wait for Joseph ... that will be editorial, lets do the simplest thing
16:49:11 <fesch> mc: whatever works for Joseph..
16:49:25 <fesch> rs: we decided to move into the name computation section
16:49:40 <fesch> zakim, take up item 1
16:49:40 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:50:59 <fesch> Topic: HTML AAM
16:51:50 <fesch> mc I think joint ownership is important and we nominally have the greater expertise
16:52:16 <fesch> mc: we can have single ownership as long as we have time to review
16:52:27 <fesch> rs: that seems like joint ownership
16:52:44 <fesch> rs: we have a lot on our plate
16:53:03 <fesch> mc: if we take it off our plate, then we loose control of the timeline
16:53:30 <chaals> [Joint ownership is actually pretty painful from a process point of view. Single ownership simplifies some stuff - and we'll happily give review time]
16:53:35 <fesch> mc: in theory they could do that, if we don't have it a joint deliverable
16:53:54 <fesch> rs: I don't have a problem with them owning it (soley)
16:54:03 <fesch> rs: ARIA 2 will be a huge effort
16:55:15 <fesch_> fesch_ has joined #aria
16:55:32 <fesch_> rs: up to now dPub did not have the skills
16:55:37 <fesch_> scribe: fesch_
16:55:54 <fesch_> rs: for a host language, I think it is OK...
16:56:10 <fesch_> mc: do we think a module would be produced outside ARIA WG?
16:56:15 <fesch_> rs" no
16:56:24 <fesch_> mc: then that wouldn't be a worry
16:56:32 <Rich> q?
16:56:35 <chaals> [But note that it would be very helpful for WebPlatform, if we take on "official" reposnsibility for  AAM, to have a sense of how long you would want for review cycles…]
16:56:42 <fesch_> mc: I just want the tradeoffs to be understood
16:57:03 <fesch_> rs: will put it out for CfC... and get a vote on it...
16:58:15 <fesch__> fesch__ has joined #aria
16:58:37 <fesch__> mc: they may need us give us a few months for review
16:58:46 <fesch__> scribe: fesch__
16:59:06 <fesch__> mc: or if we review every quarter, a month might be OK
16:59:13 <MichaelC> s/few months for review/few months for review when going to CR, if we haven´t reviewed before/
16:59:24 <fesch__> js: don't we have a policy for this?
17:00:06 <fesch__> mc: our charter declares it is a joint deliverable, their charter has it as their (alone) deliverable
17:00:21 <fesch__> mc: as long as no one has a problem with that...
17:00:40 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
17:00:45 <fesch__> mc: maybe on our web page we might want to describe the AAM work
17:01:15 <fesch> a
17:01:18 <fesch> a
17:01:24 <fesch> scribe: fesch
17:02:01 <fesch> rs: I think we are going to have to work on it together...
17:02:12 <fesch> js: Looking up statement we sent out...
17:02:37 <fesch> rs: can come back later in call
17:02:48 <fesch> TOPIC: blockers for CR
17:03:11 <fesch> rs: working with Zerkov and Tah ...
17:03:11 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:03:38 <fesch> rs: will have different stuff for details .... no answers on reverse relationsihips
17:04:24 <fesch> mk: joanie had asked for agreement on concatenating, did we agree on a order?
17:04:34 <fesch> rs: we didn't agree on an order
17:04:54 <fesch> mk: request for order, putting in issues
17:05:23 <fesch> rs: don't know what the delimitier would be
17:05:34 <fesch> mk: that is a problem
17:05:35 <joanie> s/joanie had asked for agreement on/joanie was asked if she would agree to/
17:05:46 <fesch> rs: I'm not crazy for it....
17:06:10 <fesch> mk: maybe I will seek an explanation -
17:06:29 <fesch> rs: James said we have to say both anyways...
17:06:48 <fesch> mk: this takes away flexibility from screen readers
17:07:05 <fesch> rs: here is the problem - we have only one string to fill
17:07:19 <fesch> rs: he did not want the AT to fill the string
17:07:47 <fesch> rs: we could add another string for error message, doubt that will happen, lot of work
17:08:45 <fesch> rs: we don't want to stringify an error message, only one string for description, he did not want AT to do it
17:08:57 <fesch> mk: will talk with him
17:09:12 <fesch> jd: I will work with whatever,  either way
17:09:39 <fesch> mk: we already have a problem with screen readers talking too much
17:09:42 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:09:53 <fesch> jn: error messages always need to be spoken
17:10:16 <fesch> rs: AT vendors don't attend the meetings so we have to rehash...
17:10:39 <fesch> jg: is this about what authors?
17:11:03 <fesch> cs: the point of error messages was to be distinct from descriptions
17:11:25 <fesch> rs: I don't like stringifying, because there may be help in there
17:11:39 <fesch> rs: matt please do it quickly
17:12:15 <fesch> mk: which list?  IA2 list?
17:12:22 <fesch> rs: yes
17:12:47 <fesch> cs: will it matter if IA2 is different from UIA?
17:14:44 <fesch> cs: if we need to do a call 2pm Pacific....
17:15:18 <fesch> mk: I usually meet at 4pm Pacific
17:18:48 <fesch> rs: sending email to ARIA and IA2 list - more we look at concatenation - the worse it looks
17:20:06 <fesch> rs: concatenation provides problem for Edge and internationalization (space issue in Chinese)
17:20:52 <fesch> rs: point of errormsg was to separate them out... and the size of the string could be an issue
17:21:20 <fesch> TOPIC: Test harness
17:21:38 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#ARIA_Role_Testable_Statements
17:22:17 <fesch> rs: have a number of issues with interfaces
17:22:33 <fesch> rs: separated MSAA and IA2 and they may both have roles
17:23:29 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
17:23:51 <fesch> fred: there is  a problem for the interaces
17:24:02 <fesch> cs: I will fill out the TODO's for UIA
17:24:29 <fesch> rs: Cynthia if you can go back through the core AAM,
17:24:34 <fesch> cs: OK
17:24:56 <fesch> rs: need feed roles,
17:25:27 <fesch> rs: I will take my branch and pull in -
17:25:38 <fesch> rs: then let Cynthia fill in UIA
17:26:05 <fesch> Topic: TPAC Coordination
17:26:07 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
17:26:26 <jongund_> q+
17:26:33 <fesch> rs: some of the things on here - APA Monday and Tuesday
17:26:56 <fesch> rs: Thursday Education outreach.... James N. will you be at TPAC
17:27:00 <fesch> jn: yes
17:27:08 <fesch> rs: you need to lead that discussion
17:28:11 <fesch> rs: COGA interlock - 13:30 - 14:30  -- not worried about prefixes but will be creating the module, will call it personization and work with Lisa S on this
17:29:01 <fesch> rs:: Friday meeting with TAG,   met with TAG in July... will share ARIA 2.0 requirements.... they may have an approach for problems
17:29:18 <fesch> rs: trying to get a Monday meeting with Web Components...
17:29:18 <Rich> https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/552
17:29:43 <fesch> rs: Web Components want a role for every HTML element... that is a lot
17:29:53 <Rich> https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/553
17:30:03 <fesch> rs: will talk about that...  also talking about custom widgets with TAG
17:30:41 <fesch> rs: Leonie wanted us to lead on this - this has to be joint
17:30:50 <fesch> mk: I don't see it --
17:31:13 <fesch> rs: that is an APA meeting - Janina and I are splitting up the meetings...
17:31:36 <fesch> rs: it is in todays agenda
17:32:28 <fesch> rs: on Friday, after Web Platform folks earlier in the week, and want to meet as a group, and put proposal together
17:32:47 <fesch> rs: is MS doing anything with polymir?
17:32:55 <fesch> rs: web components?
17:33:01 <fesch> cs: yes
17:33:02 <janina> Argh, just lost audio!
17:33:21 <fesch> rs: can include links -
17:33:31 <fesch> mk: would be nice to have everything in the wiki
17:34:14 <fesch> js: will have a joint meeting with CSS,  will put agenda on wiki
17:35:02 <fesch> mb: it is a joint meeting between APA, ARIA and CSS?
17:35:16 <fesch> mb: need dial in accesss
17:36:37 <fesch> rs: what about dPub meeting?
17:37:01 <fesch> js: Tzitha isn't back until next week
17:38:22 <fesch> RESOLUTION: have Michael, Rich and Janina publish a CfC on publication of HTML AAAM
17:38:32 <fesch> ?sAAA/AA/
17:38:54 <fesch> s/AAA/AA/
17:39:01 <Rich> https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/553
17:39:34 <Rich> https://github.com/a11y-api/a11y-api/
17:39:58 <fesch> mk: github is hard to use, learning the landmarks
17:40:13 <Rich> http://a11y-api.github.io/a11y-api/spec/
17:40:38 <fesch> rs: a lot of people have been working about an accessibility API
17:41:47 <fesch> cs: 6 months ago we thought about bringing it to a community group, don't know what happened
17:42:46 <fesch> cs: the community group isn't a priority (personal priority, but not work priority)
17:43:18 <fesch> rs: I don't know what to do with it...
17:43:53 <fesch> rs: I don't see anything about device independent ...
17:44:43 <Rich> https://github.com/a11y-api/a11y-api/
17:45:47 <fesch> rs: Dominic asked me to respond to this... first I have seen it
17:46:13 <fesch> cs: Microsoft isn't currently involved
17:46:49 <fesch> mk: in the repo there are only three contributors,
17:46:57 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
17:47:02 <fesch> mc: but there are three different branches... confusing
17:47:57 <fesch> jg: Michael did you get a request for a reoccurring meeting on Wednesday for test
17:48:21 <fesch> jg: we are making progress on test cases, but missing platforms
17:49:00 <fesch> rs: we don't have anyone wanting to work on OSX
17:49:21 <fesch> sm: tests need to be set up so we can run them manually
17:49:42 <fesch> rs: apple should do their platform...
17:49:54 <fesch> jg: I want to find out who is doing what...
17:50:05 <fesch> rs: Joanie ATK
17:51:21 <fesch> jg: which is more valuable IA2 or?
17:51:42 <fesch> rs: chrome is 50% of the market... so IA2
17:54:00 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:54:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/25-aria-minutes.html fesch
18:14:09 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
18:21:16 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
18:26:40 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria
18:36:47 <mck> mck has joined #aria
18:42:40 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
18:49:45 <mck_> mck_ has joined #aria
19:13:02 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
19:37:57 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
19:50:53 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
19:55:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
20:08:53 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
20:34:00 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
21:22:27 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
21:50:04 <Rich> Rich has joined #aria
22:05:46 <chaals> chaals has joined #aria
23:02:14 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
23:04:36 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria