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16:26:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:27:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:27:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:27:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:27:01 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2016
16:27:02 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:27:10 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
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16:29:30 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Aug/0171.html
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16:31:14 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Aug/0015.html
16:31:15 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
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16:32:08 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Aug/0015.html
16:32:25 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
16:33:03 <Stefan> Rich: CFC results of TF
16:33:05 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Aug/0011.html
16:33:18 <Stefan> Rich: we only got results of support
16:33:28 <Stefan> Rich: no objections, Michael?
16:33:35 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:33:41 <janina_> present+ Janina
16:33:45 <Stefan> Michael: no
16:33:47 <Rich> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:33:51 <jemma> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
16:33:54 <Stefan> Rich: how is this staffed?
16:34:05 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:34:13 <Stefan> Michael: we are still wrking on that
16:34:27 <Stefan> Michael: we needs people of all three WG's
16:34:44 <Stefan> Michael: we ask people from small list of candidates
16:35:08 <Stefan> Janina: gona have to beat the bushes, no chair already known
16:35:19 <mck> present+ matt_King
16:35:58 <Stefan> Michalel: assuming charter goes throught thn group will have clear indication .. we are cooking things together at TPM
16:36:28 <Stefan> Janina: bunch of mails from seevral groups, will be clearer after the week-end
16:37:33 <Stefan> Matt: no overlaps with CSS please at TPAC
16:37:55 <Stefan> Matt: could also be not on Monday
16:38:20 <Stefan> Rich: we are wrking to split things between different working groups
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16:39:16 <Stefan> Matt: 30 min req. to get the ball rolling in that area
16:39:24 <Stefan> Rich: Thursday perhaps
16:39:39 <Stefan> Rich: we reach decision to form up TF
16:40:38 <Stefan> Rich: we have concerns how this will be staffed, this is quite "overcommitted"
16:41:12 <Stefan> Michael: CSS mappings is not a ARIA deliverable
16:41:38 <Rich> Topic: Action 2107
16:41:42 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2107
16:41:50 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2107-aria-details/aria/aria.html
16:42:04 <Stefan> Matt: URL to branch with proposal
16:42:51 <Stefan> Matt: I found some middle ground but not sure what is wanted in long run
16:43:08 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2107-aria-details/aria/aria.html#aria-details
16:43:12 <Stefan> Rich: (reading it)
16:43:21 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
16:43:45 <Stefan> Matt: changed ws: 2nd paragraph int two
16:44:09 <Stefan> Matt: changed intent (availability of decription, nav to it, visible etc,)
16:44:25 <Stefan> Matt: simplified paragraphs basically
16:44:42 <Stefan> Matt: name/description was broken up into separate units
16:45:17 <Stefan> Matt: flattened into a string is useful
16:45:56 <Stefan> Matt: next paragraph some acc apis is aout precedence of aria-details
16:46:34 <Stefan> Matt: one reason for this is UAs are moving in direction to support both, in the long run we can remove the statement
16:47:03 <Stefan> Matt: only reveal details and hide description ist the other way to go
16:47:39 <Stefan> Rich: I worry about that we have two descriptions both of them visible - which one to go?
16:47:39 <fesch> q+ to say  how can you ensure aria-details reference is visible and points to a different web page?
16:48:31 <Stefan> Matt: aria-describedby is NOT only for description, it is multi-purpose, whereas aria-details is much more specifiic in terms of what is decribed
16:48:58 <Rich> q?
16:48:59 <Stefan> Matt: both a re useful I can imagine both scenarios+
16:49:10 <Rich> ack fesch
16:49:10 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to say  how can you ensure aria-details reference is visible and points to a different web page?
16:49:32 <Stefan> Fred: visible on page or different web page, is the different page visible, too?
16:49:35 <Stefan> +q
16:49:49 <fesch> ack me
16:50:06 <Stefan> Rich: examples changed? Matt: no
16:50:56 <Stefan> Rich: extended description, alternative drawing could also be possible
16:51:09 <Stefan> James: big tooltip with structural info also
16:51:30 <Stefan> Rich: tooltip never came up, but why is this not a description?
16:51:36 <Stefan> James. because it is structured
16:52:10 <Stefan> Rich: intent is we don't want to be stringified
16:52:34 <Stefan> James: we need also way to keyboard user to move to structured content
16:52:47 <Stefan> Rich: big discussion in API working group
16:53:11 <Stefan> Rich: new key shortcuts are also topic for aria-details nav to
16:53:31 <Stefan> Matt: devil is in details for focus ,oving
16:54:08 <Stefan> Matt: ARIA 2.0 discussion: do we have a diffeernt kind of key attribut on an element
16:54:23 <Stefan> Rich: yeah, ARIA 2
16:54:44 <Stefan> Rich: we need meeting to discuss ARIA 2 items before TPAC
16:55:17 <Stefan> Matt: ACC API's : if group things limiting authors then we should decide so
16:56:15 <Stefan> RicH. it is more a browser limitation than a AT limitation, original concern was using certain relationships under covers and this will hold up everything
16:56:36 <Stefan> Rich: no normative text change, I'm ok with this
16:56:42 <Rich> q?
16:56:43 <fesch> +1
16:56:45 <Rich> +1
16:56:47 <janina_> +1
16:56:49 <Stefan> R+1
16:57:50 <Stefan> RESOLUTION: accept ed. change for action 2107
16:57:58 <Stefan> q-
16:58:34 <ShaneM> zakim, agenda?
16:58:34 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:59:53 <Stefan> Topic: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1723
17:00:31 <Stefan> Rich: Joanie is not here
17:00:47 <Stefan> Michael: not able to anser fast if this was pulled in
17:01:25 <Stefan> Rich: (looking into it too)
17:02:00 <Stefan> Rich: we move on
17:02:24 <Stefan> Topic: Testable Statements (Coordination) and test case Authoring
17:02:35 <Stefan> Rich: Shane was creating a wiki
17:02:55 <Stefan> Shane: I don't have this action item
17:03:13 <Stefan> Rich: all new 1.1 statements
17:03:34 <Stefan> Michel: I don't remember creating any new 1.1 testable statements
17:03:45 <Stefan> Shane: Joanie finished that after the meeting
17:04:19 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#Overview
17:04:32 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
17:05:27 <Stefan> Fred: we have pearl script that takes cntent from wiki and put it into jason blom or whatever
17:05:59 <Stefan> Fred: we can tweak wiki pages and turn them into automated test pages
17:06:10 <Stefan> Rich: can you explain format
17:07:01 <Stefan> Fred: code is there but not testable staement
17:07:16 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables
17:07:56 <Stefan> Fred: (explains first example)
17:08:07 <Stefan> Fred: if it fails will be identified with FAIL
17:08:32 <Stefan> Fred: important part is saying IF_GIVEN
17:08:50 <Stefan> Fred: below that is table what we expect found by platform
17:09:06 <Stefan> Rich: can there be breaks or must it be one line in testable statement
17:09:31 <Stefan> Fred: space is fine, Returns probably also ...
17:09:44 <Stefan> Fred: no wiki markup please
17:10:22 <Stefan> Rich: original one for ARIA .. testable statements .. bunch of properties
17:10:23 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
17:10:38 <Stefan> Rich: aria-busy for example
17:10:58 <Stefan> Rich: must have same structure as for SVG testable statements#
17:11:49 <Stefan> Fred: add normative requirement (aria-busy=true), I'm not sure that we have that as offerings
17:12:22 <Stefan> Matt: in this case that normative change won't drive a testable statement
17:12:27 <Stefan> Rich: can ou add comments?
17:12:41 <Stefan> Fred: actually pulls that out and put it in JSON
17:12:52 <Stefan> Rich: comments a re not parsed
17:13:00 <Stefan> Rich: we can work with this
17:13:11 <Stefan> Rich: we need testable statements for aria-busy
17:13:35 <Stefan> Rich: what is if aria-busy is applied to Table etc.
17:13:47 <ShaneM> can we look at : https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Automated_Testing#Draft_ARIA_Test_Case_Format
17:13:57 <Stefan> Rich: does everybody undestands? OK.
17:14:31 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about aam stuff
17:15:16 <Stefan> Fred: multiple people cannot edit page at same time, it is a wiki
17:15:31 <Stefan> Rich: who does what? I'm gpoing to do that NOW :)
17:16:07 <Stefan> Fred: right now I'm going tompull out the PRE
17:16:39 <Stefan> Fred: looks like the other stuff disappeared .. strange .. must check
17:17:38 <Stefan> Rich: let's assign things to people
17:17:57 <Stefan> Rich: who wants to take 3.1 to 3.10?
17:18:29 <Stefan> Rich: for things that have changed in ARIA 1.1
17:19:23 <Stefan> Rich: Fed will get an action
17:20:35 <Stefan> ACTION: Fred Esch write testable stements and testcases for 3.1 to 3.10
17:20:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2109 - Esch write testable stements and testcases for 3.1 to 3.10 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-08-25].
17:21:07 <Stefan> ACTION: Rich write testable stements and testcases for 3.10 to 3.22
17:21:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2110 - Write testable stements and testcases for 3.10 to 3.22 [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-08-25].
17:22:21 <Stefan> ACTION: Fred Esch write testable stements and testcases for 4.1 to 4.14
17:22:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2111 - Esch write testable stements and testcases for 4.1 to 4.14 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-08-25].
17:23:52 <Stefan> ACTION: Fred Esch write testable stements and testcases for 4.15 to end of 4
17:23:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2112 - Esch write testable stements and testcases for 4.15 to end of 4 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-08-25].
17:25:21 <Stefan> Topic: Blockers for entering CR
17:25:34 <Stefan> Rich: I can not see any
17:25:54 <Stefan> Rich: just some things with Alexander Surkov / James Craig
17:26:03 <Stefan> Michel: no blockers
17:26:22 <Stefan> Matt: no blockers, there was an action but was discussed in API call
17:27:06 <Stefan> Rich: I thing we are OK now
17:27:20 <Stefan> Rich: we need relationships nailed down with Alex
17:27:39 <Stefan> Rich: some people must still respond
17:28:06 <Stefan> Rich: we got tget this wrapped up
17:28:22 <Stefan> Rich:we now get started on this. Anything else?
17:28:37 <Stefan> Topic: Automation
17:28:42 <ShaneM> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Automated_Testing#Draft_ARIA_Test_Case_Format
17:29:02 <Stefan> Shane: link goes to a fragment with test case formats
17:30:09 <Stefan> Shane: support info requested in this format, so we care for EACH API mapping what is the bits we care about .. this info was in manual tests before .. useless for machines must e machine readable
17:30:26 <Stefan> Shane: automation of result evaluation must be easier
17:31:03 <Stefan> Rich: will you define lotta stuff of table for an UIAutiomation table interface?
17:31:20 <Stefan> Shane: can you give example?
17:31:56 <Stefan> Rich: each of element mappings - can we do a hierarchy?
17:32:08 <Stefan> Shane: as long if something has an ID
17:32:28 <Stefan> Rich: do all elements need ID's?
17:32:33 <Stefan> Shane: yes.
17:33:40 <Stefan> Shane: you can use CSS selectors for traverse, too
17:34:05 <Stefan> Rich: let's get a path out it, maybe a couple of pathers
17:34:23 <Stefan> p a lotShane: need working examples will help a lot
17:35:35 <Stefan> Shane: fake screen reader, gets info out of acc. tree each platform we want to automate, thats the basic idea
17:35:50 <Stefan> Rich: let's get started on
17:36:20 <Stefan> Ricjh: Fred, documenting this format is also important, do you have time for this?
17:36:23 <Stefan> Fred: yes
17:37:03 <Stefan> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:37:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/18-aria-minutes.html Stefan
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