18:01:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
18:01:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-irc
18:01:21 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:01:33 <LJWatson> Meeting: SVG A11y TF
18:01:36 <LJWatson> chair: Fred
18:01:41 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
18:01:45 <LJWatson> present+ Fred
18:01:50 <LJWatson> present+ Brian
18:02:15 <LJWatson> Regrets: Rich, Chaals
18:02:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:02:45 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:03:18 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
18:03:45 <LJWatson> agenda+ Round table
18:03:58 <LJWatson> zakim, clear agenda
18:03:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:04:10 <LJWatson> agenda+ Round table
18:04:18 <LJWatson> agenda+ News from SVG
18:04:31 <LJWatson> agenda+ News from ARIA
18:04:45 <LJWatson> agenda+ Publication status
18:04:55 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 1
18:04:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Round table" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:05:02 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:07:39 <fesch_> fesch_ has joined #svg-a11y
18:08:07 <LJWatson> FE: Nothing to report.
18:08:12 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 1
18:08:12 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
18:08:21 <LJWatson> zakim, q?
18:08:21 <Zakim> I see fesch on the speaker queue
18:08:29 <fesch_> ack me
18:08:30 <LJWatson> ack Fe
18:08:41 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 2
18:08:41 <Zakim> agendum 2. "News from SVG" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:09:18 <LJWatson> BM: No news from SVG.
18:09:23 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 2
18:09:23 <Zakim> agendum 2, News from SVG, closed
18:09:24 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:24 <Zakim> 1. Round table [from LJWatson]
18:09:28 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 3
18:09:28 <Zakim> agendum 3. "News from ARIA" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:09:53 <LJWatson> FE: Trying to test and close ARIA 1.1.
18:10:06 <LJWatson> ... Don't think there is anything relevant to SVG specifically.
18:10:11 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 3
18:10:11 <Zakim> agendum 3, News from ARIA, closed
18:10:12 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:10:12 <Zakim> 1. Round table [from LJWatson]
18:10:23 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 4
18:10:23 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Publication status" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:10:58 <LJWatson> FE: We'll release heartbeats when we get Michael's time.
18:11:08 <LJWatson> ... Think it will be after the dPub specs go out.
18:11:14 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:11:22 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Testing
18:11:42 <LJWatson> FE: Talked with Shane about automated testing for ARIA 11.
18:12:04 <LJWatson> ... We'll use the same format of testable statements that we have in SVG, then run a diff between it and ARIA 1.1
18:12:22 <LJWatson> ... We'll convert them with a Perl script into the format needed for the Web Driver test suites.
18:12:53 <LJWatson> ... We need to go through our wiki and make sure that the tests there are still current and valid, and also complete.
18:13:19 <LJWatson> ... Think Amelia was going to review this, but we should all do this.
18:14:27 <LJWatson> ... We need to check things relating to <use> and shadow DOM with care.
18:14:40 <LJWatson> ... but perhaps we could get volunteers to look at different sections.
18:15:09 <LJWatson> LW: Should we try to divide it up now?
18:15:16 <LJWatson> FE: Let's try it now, yes.
18:15:29 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions_with_Tables
18:15:50 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions/Language_Tables
18:16:05 <LJWatson> FE: Test info for language/multilingual is linked from the above URL.
18:16:42 <LJWatson> LW: So there are 8 groups of tests?
18:17:19 <LJWatson> FE: Multilingual is further broken up, so there are 7 groups initially.
18:17:38 <LJWatson> LW: When do we need to get this done?
18:17:49 <LJWatson> FE: No timetable, but sooner the better.
18:18:30 <LJWatson> LW: It's the AB meeting next week so Chaals and i will be regrets next Wednesday.
18:18:51 <LJWatson> FE: Two weeks?
18:18:55 <LJWatson> LW: WFM.
18:19:23 <LJWatson> BM: I can look at the bottom three groups (role="presentation", role="none", and not in a11y tree), by next week.
18:19:57 <LJWatson> LW: I'll take the acc name tests.
18:20:48 <LJWatson> ACTION: Brain to review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23
18:20:48 <trackbot> Error finding 'Brain'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/users>.
18:21:14 <LJWatson> ACTION: Brian to review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23
18:21:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2028 - Review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23 [on Brian McNeily - due 2016-08-23].
18:21:42 <LJWatson> ACTION: LJWatson to review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30
18:21:42 <trackbot> Error finding 'LJWatson'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/users>.
18:22:23 <LJWatson> ACTION: Leonie to review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30
18:22:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2029 - Review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30 [on Léonie Watson - due 2016-08-23].
18:22:55 <LJWatson> FE: May need acc name tests for the <use> element.
18:23:52 <LJWatson> ACTION: Fred to review acc description and role tests due 2016-08-23
18:23:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2030 - Review acc description and role tests due 2016-08-23 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-08-23].
18:24:04 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:24:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:24:41 <LJWatson> FE: If someone creates a new test it needs to use the same syntax as the other tests already in the wiki.
18:25:02 <LJWatson> ... Comments start with //
18:25:20 <LJWatson> ... Used to identify what's in the testable statement - in human readable form.
18:26:41 <LJWatson> ... By tradition the element being tested has id="test"
18:27:13 <LJWatson> ... testable statements are typically if x then y.
18:27:38 <LJWatson> ... The results table includes the different APIs, plus notes (for Joannie's use only).
18:27:52 <LJWatson> ... She uses the notes column for webkit tests only.
18:28:14 <LJWatson> present+ Amelia
18:28:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:30:06 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 1
18:30:06 <Zakim> agendum 1, Round table, closed
18:30:07 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:30:07 <Zakim> 4. Publication status [from LJWatson]
18:30:36 <LJWatson> ABR: Makes sense to focus on tests other than the anguage ones, because those features are at risk in SVG.
18:30:48 <LJWatson> s/anguage/language/
18:30:53 <fesch> q?
18:31:03 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 4
18:31:03 <Zakim> agendum 4, Publication status, closed
18:31:04 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:31:12 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Amelia's changes
18:31:24 <fesch>  https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/423
18:32:16 <LJWatson> ABR: We've discussed the changes in this commit.
18:32:25 <LJWatson> ... Would like to be sure it meets expectations though.
18:32:53 <LJWatson> ... Most changes relate to <use> and the shadow tree.
18:33:24 <LJWatson> ... Have been specific about referring to "use element shadow tree", as opposed to generic "dhadow tree".
18:33:39 <LJWatson> FE: Noted one instance where the generic version is still used.
18:33:48 <LJWatson> ABR: Which doc?
18:34:04 <LJWatson> ... Make sure you're looking at the final changes.
18:34:13 <LJWatson> FE: Ah. Ok.
18:35:38 <LJWatson> ABR: Reference the normative definitions for shadow tree, shadow dom etc.
18:36:22 <LJWatson> FE: Isn't there a problem with referencing the Shadow DOM spec?
18:37:25 <LJWatson> ABR: That's why I referenced the DOM WHATWG spec.
18:38:21 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:40:01 <LJWatson> ABR: Have added more tests.
18:40:13 <LJWatson> ... for whether something is a link.
18:40:17 <LJWatson> FE: As in has anhref?
18:40:22 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes pretty much.
18:41:05 <LJWatson> ... Final change is the section on animations.
18:41:22 <LJWatson> ... Had an editors note to update SVG2 for the state and property attribs.
18:41:30 <LJWatson> ... Have cleaned up our spec to match.
18:41:52 <fesch> q?
18:42:07 <LJWatson> FE: Are we ok to accept these changes?
18:42:10 <LJWatson> +1
18:42:15 <fesch> +1
18:42:21 <LJWatson> FE: Everyone seems happy.
18:42:38 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: To accept Amelia's changes and merge #423 into master.
18:42:55 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:43:15 <LJWatson> FE: Does the way <use> is used affect name computation?
18:43:35 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes - now it's treated as a container. Same for symbol.
18:44:01 <LJWatson> ... Will need some more tests for when <use> is an accessible object etc.
18:44:22 <LJWatson> FE: Same for description?
18:44:26 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes.
18:45:21 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:45:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:45:33 <LJWatson> topic: Graphics text role
18:47:08 <LJWatson> ABR: The text role was added to ARIA 1.1.
18:47:39 <LJWatson> ... Mainly used for things like icons or emojis, where having it announced as a graphic wasn't deemed necessary.
18:47:54 <LJWatson> ... SVG text converted to paths is another example.
18:48:02 <LJWatson> ... It was controversial on the ARIA side.
18:48:26 <LJWatson> ... People were concerned that role=2text" would be added inappropriately and the graphic info/structure would be lost.
18:48:39 <LJWatson> ... Also that an aria-label could override the actual text content.
18:48:58 <LJWatson> ... Also announcing the role as "text" would be disconcerting for screen reader users.
18:49:09 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:49:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
18:49:20 <LJWatson> ... After a lot of debate it has been removed from 1.1.
18:49:41 <LJWatson> ... Webkit already has support for it though, so it hascontinued to cause controversy.
18:50:14 <LJWatson> ... Think this role makes sense in a graphical setting.
18:50:36 <LJWatson> ... Where getting the right font/presentation is important for example.
18:51:41 <LJWatson> LW: I am not keen on this role.
18:51:54 <LJWatson> ... Losing the knowledge that something is an image is of concern.
18:52:31 <LJWatson> ABR: ATs could have different options perhaps - so in some cases the role/graphic would be announced.
18:53:15 <LJWatson> BM: Think announcing the text role would be of concern.
18:53:28 <LJWatson> ... Otherwise think I see benefits and concerns.
18:53:46 <LJWatson> FE: You could label the text content perhaps?
18:54:18 <LJWatson> ABR: Currently you'd have aria-label (or <title>), but it would be announced as the acc name for the group/container.
18:55:18 <LJWatson> LW: What is the use case?
18:55:31 <LJWatson> FE: Something like an emoji like "black heart" for example
18:56:07 <LJWatson> ABR: The existing solution is to use <span role="img" aria-label="love">emoji</span.
18:56:28 <LJWatson> LW: So do we have evidence that this is a problem for users?
18:56:54 <LJWatson> ABR: Don't think so for that particular use case.
18:57:22 <LJWatson> LW: Worried this might be a solution in search of a problem.
18:57:46 <LJWatson> ABR: For SVG with text it might be cnfusing for an image of a word, as opposed to an image of the thing the word describes.
18:57:56 <LJWatson> ... Having a way to distinguish betwen the two might be helpful.
18:58:08 <LJWatson> FW: Or on a map a river might have squiggles.
18:58:21 <LJWatson> ... To label it you'd put a group around it and label it with role="text2.
18:58:34 <LJWatson> ... When things are broken into separate random bits it might be helpful.
19:03:12 <LJWatson> ABR: Just wanted to throw this out there for thought.
19:03:20 <LJWatson> ... the discussion will continue in ARIA space.
19:03:39 <LJWatson> FE: for SVG the concept of a label means something in structural graphics.
19:03:57 <LJWatson> ... Text I'm not sure has so much semantic meaning.
19:04:10 <LJWatson> ... give peole the option to choose text or label, think we'll have lost something.
19:04:21 <LJWatson> ABR: That's a bigger worry for me.
19:04:27 <LJWatson> ... Labels are different to alt texts.
19:04:47 <LJWatson> ... In ARIA the two are often confused.
19:05:25 <LJWatson> LW: ARIA tumps everythng in the acc name computation.
19:06:15 <LJWatson> LW: We're also over the hour.
19:06:24 <LJWatson> FE: Ok. Time to leave it here for today.
19:06:31 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
19:10:27 <fesch> fesch has joined #svg-a11y
21:14:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg-a11y
21:31:08 <chaals> chaals has joined #svg-a11y