IRC log of svg-a11y on 2016-08-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
18:01:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:01:21 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:01:33 [LJWatson]
Meeting: SVG A11y TF
18:01:36 [LJWatson]
chair: Fred
18:01:41 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
18:01:45 [LJWatson]
present+ Fred
18:01:50 [LJWatson]
present+ Brian
18:02:15 [LJWatson]
Regrets: Rich, Chaals
18:02:22 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:02:45 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:03:18 [LJWatson]
scribenick: LJWatson
18:03:45 [LJWatson]
agenda+ Round table
18:03:58 [LJWatson]
zakim, clear agenda
18:03:58 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
18:04:10 [LJWatson]
agenda+ Round table
18:04:18 [LJWatson]
agenda+ News from SVG
18:04:31 [LJWatson]
agenda+ News from ARIA
18:04:45 [LJWatson]
agenda+ Publication status
18:04:55 [LJWatson]
zakim, take up item 1
18:04:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Round table" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:05:02 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:07:39 [fesch_]
fesch_ has joined #svg-a11y
18:08:07 [LJWatson]
FE: Nothing to report.
18:08:12 [LJWatson]
zakim, close item 1
18:08:12 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
18:08:21 [LJWatson]
zakim, q?
18:08:21 [Zakim]
I see fesch on the speaker queue
18:08:29 [fesch_]
ack me
18:08:30 [LJWatson]
ack Fe
18:08:41 [LJWatson]
zakim, take up item 2
18:08:41 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "News from SVG" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:09:18 [LJWatson]
BM: No news from SVG.
18:09:23 [LJWatson]
zakim, close item 2
18:09:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2, News from SVG, closed
18:09:24 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:09:24 [Zakim]
1. Round table [from LJWatson]
18:09:28 [LJWatson]
zakim, take up item 3
18:09:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "News from ARIA" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:09:53 [LJWatson]
FE: Trying to test and close ARIA 1.1.
18:10:06 [LJWatson]
... Don't think there is anything relevant to SVG specifically.
18:10:11 [LJWatson]
zakim, close item 3
18:10:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3, News from ARIA, closed
18:10:12 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:10:12 [Zakim]
1. Round table [from LJWatson]
18:10:23 [LJWatson]
zakim, take up item 4
18:10:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Publication status" taken up [from LJWatson]
18:10:58 [LJWatson]
FE: We'll release heartbeats when we get Michael's time.
18:11:08 [LJWatson]
... Think it will be after the dPub specs go out.
18:11:14 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:11:22 [LJWatson]
TOPIC: Testing
18:11:42 [LJWatson]
FE: Talked with Shane about automated testing for ARIA 11.
18:12:04 [LJWatson]
... We'll use the same format of testable statements that we have in SVG, then run a diff between it and ARIA 1.1
18:12:22 [LJWatson]
... We'll convert them with a Perl script into the format needed for the Web Driver test suites.
18:12:53 [LJWatson]
... We need to go through our wiki and make sure that the tests there are still current and valid, and also complete.
18:13:19 [LJWatson]
... Think Amelia was going to review this, but we should all do this.
18:14:27 [LJWatson]
... We need to check things relating to <use> and shadow DOM with care.
18:14:40 [LJWatson]
... but perhaps we could get volunteers to look at different sections.
18:15:09 [LJWatson]
LW: Should we try to divide it up now?
18:15:16 [LJWatson]
FE: Let's try it now, yes.
18:15:29 [fesch]
18:15:50 [fesch]
18:16:05 [LJWatson]
FE: Test info for language/multilingual is linked from the above URL.
18:16:42 [LJWatson]
LW: So there are 8 groups of tests?
18:17:19 [LJWatson]
FE: Multilingual is further broken up, so there are 7 groups initially.
18:17:38 [LJWatson]
LW: When do we need to get this done?
18:17:49 [LJWatson]
FE: No timetable, but sooner the better.
18:18:30 [LJWatson]
LW: It's the AB meeting next week so Chaals and i will be regrets next Wednesday.
18:18:51 [LJWatson]
FE: Two weeks?
18:18:55 [LJWatson]
18:19:23 [LJWatson]
BM: I can look at the bottom three groups (role="presentation", role="none", and not in a11y tree), by next week.
18:19:57 [LJWatson]
LW: I'll take the acc name tests.
18:20:48 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Brain to review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23
18:20:48 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Brain'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
18:21:14 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Brian to review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23
18:21:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2028 - Review role="presentation", role="non", and non-a11y tree tests due 2016-08-23 [on Brian McNeily - due 2016-08-23].
18:21:42 [LJWatson]
ACTION: LJWatson to review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30
18:21:42 [trackbot]
Error finding 'LJWatson'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
18:22:23 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Leonie to review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30
18:22:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2029 - Review tests for acc name due 2016-08-30 [on LĂ©onie Watson - due 2016-08-23].
18:22:55 [LJWatson]
FE: May need acc name tests for the <use> element.
18:23:52 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Fred to review acc description and role tests due 2016-08-23
18:23:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2030 - Review acc description and role tests due 2016-08-23 [on Fred Esch - due 2016-08-23].
18:24:04 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:24:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:24:41 [LJWatson]
FE: If someone creates a new test it needs to use the same syntax as the other tests already in the wiki.
18:25:02 [LJWatson]
... Comments start with //
18:25:20 [LJWatson]
... Used to identify what's in the testable statement - in human readable form.
18:26:41 [LJWatson]
... By tradition the element being tested has id="test"
18:27:13 [LJWatson]
... testable statements are typically if x then y.
18:27:38 [LJWatson]
... The results table includes the different APIs, plus notes (for Joannie's use only).
18:27:52 [LJWatson]
... She uses the notes column for webkit tests only.
18:28:14 [LJWatson]
present+ Amelia
18:28:22 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:30:06 [LJWatson]
zakim, close item 1
18:30:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Round table, closed
18:30:07 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:30:07 [Zakim]
4. Publication status [from LJWatson]
18:30:36 [LJWatson]
ABR: Makes sense to focus on tests other than the anguage ones, because those features are at risk in SVG.
18:30:48 [LJWatson]
18:30:53 [fesch]
18:31:03 [LJWatson]
zakim, close item 4
18:31:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Publication status, closed
18:31:04 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:31:12 [LJWatson]
TOPIC: Amelia's changes
18:31:24 [fesch]
18:32:16 [LJWatson]
ABR: We've discussed the changes in this commit.
18:32:25 [LJWatson]
... Would like to be sure it meets expectations though.
18:32:53 [LJWatson]
... Most changes relate to <use> and the shadow tree.
18:33:24 [LJWatson]
... Have been specific about referring to "use element shadow tree", as opposed to generic "dhadow tree".
18:33:39 [LJWatson]
FE: Noted one instance where the generic version is still used.
18:33:48 [LJWatson]
ABR: Which doc?
18:34:04 [LJWatson]
... Make sure you're looking at the final changes.
18:34:13 [LJWatson]
FE: Ah. Ok.
18:35:38 [LJWatson]
ABR: Reference the normative definitions for shadow tree, shadow dom etc.
18:36:22 [LJWatson]
FE: Isn't there a problem with referencing the Shadow DOM spec?
18:37:25 [LJWatson]
ABR: That's why I referenced the DOM WHATWG spec.
18:38:21 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:40:01 [LJWatson]
ABR: Have added more tests.
18:40:13 [LJWatson]
... for whether something is a link.
18:40:17 [LJWatson]
FE: As in has anhref?
18:40:22 [LJWatson]
ABR: Yes pretty much.
18:41:05 [LJWatson]
... Final change is the section on animations.
18:41:22 [LJWatson]
... Had an editors note to update SVG2 for the state and property attribs.
18:41:30 [LJWatson]
... Have cleaned up our spec to match.
18:41:52 [fesch]
18:42:07 [LJWatson]
FE: Are we ok to accept these changes?
18:42:10 [LJWatson]
18:42:15 [fesch]
18:42:21 [LJWatson]
FE: Everyone seems happy.
18:42:38 [LJWatson]
RESOLUTION: To accept Amelia's changes and merge #423 into master.
18:42:55 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:43:15 [LJWatson]
FE: Does the way <use> is used affect name computation?
18:43:35 [LJWatson]
ABR: Yes - now it's treated as a container. Same for symbol.
18:44:01 [LJWatson]
... Will need some more tests for when <use> is an accessible object etc.
18:44:22 [LJWatson]
FE: Same for description?
18:44:26 [LJWatson]
ABR: Yes.
18:45:21 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:45:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:45:33 [LJWatson]
topic: Graphics text role
18:47:08 [LJWatson]
ABR: The text role was added to ARIA 1.1.
18:47:39 [LJWatson]
... Mainly used for things like icons or emojis, where having it announced as a graphic wasn't deemed necessary.
18:47:54 [LJWatson]
... SVG text converted to paths is another example.
18:48:02 [LJWatson]
... It was controversial on the ARIA side.
18:48:26 [LJWatson]
... People were concerned that role=2text" would be added inappropriately and the graphic info/structure would be lost.
18:48:39 [LJWatson]
... Also that an aria-label could override the actual text content.
18:48:58 [LJWatson]
... Also announcing the role as "text" would be disconcerting for screen reader users.
18:49:09 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:49:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
18:49:20 [LJWatson]
... After a lot of debate it has been removed from 1.1.
18:49:41 [LJWatson]
... Webkit already has support for it though, so it hascontinued to cause controversy.
18:50:14 [LJWatson]
... Think this role makes sense in a graphical setting.
18:50:36 [LJWatson]
... Where getting the right font/presentation is important for example.
18:51:41 [LJWatson]
LW: I am not keen on this role.
18:51:54 [LJWatson]
... Losing the knowledge that something is an image is of concern.
18:52:31 [LJWatson]
ABR: ATs could have different options perhaps - so in some cases the role/graphic would be announced.
18:53:15 [LJWatson]
BM: Think announcing the text role would be of concern.
18:53:28 [LJWatson]
... Otherwise think I see benefits and concerns.
18:53:46 [LJWatson]
FE: You could label the text content perhaps?
18:54:18 [LJWatson]
ABR: Currently you'd have aria-label (or <title>), but it would be announced as the acc name for the group/container.
18:55:18 [LJWatson]
LW: What is the use case?
18:55:31 [LJWatson]
FE: Something like an emoji like "black heart" for example
18:56:07 [LJWatson]
ABR: The existing solution is to use <span role="img" aria-label="love">emoji</span.
18:56:28 [LJWatson]
LW: So do we have evidence that this is a problem for users?
18:56:54 [LJWatson]
ABR: Don't think so for that particular use case.
18:57:22 [LJWatson]
LW: Worried this might be a solution in search of a problem.
18:57:46 [LJWatson]
ABR: For SVG with text it might be cnfusing for an image of a word, as opposed to an image of the thing the word describes.
18:57:56 [LJWatson]
... Having a way to distinguish betwen the two might be helpful.
18:58:08 [LJWatson]
FW: Or on a map a river might have squiggles.
18:58:21 [LJWatson]
... To label it you'd put a group around it and label it with role="text2.
18:58:34 [LJWatson]
... When things are broken into separate random bits it might be helpful.
19:03:12 [LJWatson]
ABR: Just wanted to throw this out there for thought.
19:03:20 [LJWatson]
... the discussion will continue in ARIA space.
19:03:39 [LJWatson]
FE: for SVG the concept of a label means something in structural graphics.
19:03:57 [LJWatson]
... Text I'm not sure has so much semantic meaning.
19:04:10 [LJWatson]
... give peole the option to choose text or label, think we'll have lost something.
19:04:21 [LJWatson]
ABR: That's a bigger worry for me.
19:04:27 [LJWatson]
... Labels are different to alt texts.
19:04:47 [LJWatson]
... In ARIA the two are often confused.
19:05:25 [LJWatson]
LW: ARIA tumps everythng in the acc name computation.
19:06:15 [LJWatson]
LW: We're also over the hour.
19:06:24 [LJWatson]
FE: Ok. Time to leave it here for today.
19:06:31 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
19:10:27 [fesch]
fesch has joined #svg-a11y
21:14:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg-a11y
21:31:08 [chaals]
chaals has joined #svg-a11y