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20:53:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/09-sdwssn-irc
20:53:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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20:53:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:53:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:53:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:53:46 <trackbot> Date: 09 August 2016
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20:56:18 <KJanowic> Hi
20:57:03 <ahaller2> \me hi
20:57:15 <kerry> trackbot, start meeting
20:57:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:57:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:57:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:57:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:57:20 <trackbot> Date: 09 August 2016
20:57:28 <kerry> chair: kerry
20:57:38 <kerry> present+ kerry
20:58:04 <kerry> regrets: phila
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20:58:45 <KJanowic> present+ KJanowic
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21:01:33 <ScottSimmons> present+ ScottSimmons
21:01:39 <kerry> scribe: roba
21:01:44 <SimonCox> present+ SimonCox
21:01:44 <roba> present+ roba
21:01:53 <kerry> scribeNick: roba
21:02:32 <KJanowic> Hi
21:02:33 <kerry> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:SSN-Telecon20160809
21:02:46 <kerry> http://www.w3.org/2016/07/26-sdwssn-minutes
21:03:21 <kerry> +1
21:03:23 <ClausStadler> +1
21:03:24 <ahaller2> +1
21:03:27 <SimonCox> +1
21:03:27 <roba> +1
21:03:29 <JRamsay> +1
21:03:30 <KJanowic> +1
21:03:48 <kerry> resolved: approve minutes  http://www.w3.org/2016/07/26-sdwssn-minutes
21:04:07 <kerry> topic: patent call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
21:04:49 <KJanowic> Kerry, I think you are turning your head away from the microphone
21:04:58 <kerry> topic: What is SOSA? https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl
21:05:32 <KJanowic> you can also find examples at: https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/documentation_examples/sosa-core_examples.ttl
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21:06:05 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:07:55 <SefkiKolozali_UniS> SefkiKolozali_UniS has joined #sdwssn
21:08:13 <SefkiKolozali_UniS> +present SefkiKolozali_UniS
21:08:17 <kerry> KJanowic: sosa core is what is the smallest set of terms that can be used to annotate bilions of observations on the web
21:08:36 <SefkiKolozali_UniS> present+ SefkiKolozali_UniS
21:08:58 <kerry> ...e.g what does the av web dev need as a minimal set to post observations online?
21:09:19 <kerry> ..also with semantic hooks for other more complex app areas
21:09:26 <kerry> ...an ontology design pattern
21:09:48 <ahaller2> s/..also/...also
21:10:30 <kerry> ...many different aplications will be based on core and various applications based on core can be compared by sosa terms
21:10:52 <SimonCox> SOSA can stand on its own for lightweight applications, large numbers
21:11:00 <kerry> ...it stands on its own as a lightweight ontology for billions of obs and also a common core for many more complex applications
21:11:01 <roba> KJanowic: SOSA should stand on its own as a lightweight vocabulary, but also be common core
21:11:20 <SimonCox> i.e. also basis for richer semantics
21:11:50 <roba> ....reminds us its not a physical data model :-)
21:12:02 <roba> s/..../...
21:12:20 <roba> q+\
21:12:21 <SimonCox> OWA - features not present in SOSA-core does not mean they are out of scope
21:12:24 <KJanowic> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/sosa.ttl
21:12:27 <roba> q+
21:12:38 <roba> ack \
21:13:58 <roba> ...observableProperty of a featureOfInterest is what a sensor result refers to
21:15:33 <roba> ...needs to support _repeatability_ of observations
21:16:25 <roba> ...Procedure is a recipe reference that can be looked up
21:17:12 <roba> ...superclass of Result - any data type
21:18:02 <KJanowic> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/ssn/rdf/documentation_examples/sosa-core_examples.ttl
21:19:39 <KJanowic> SELECT ?observation WHERE { 	?platform a sosa-core:Platform ; 	^sosa-core:hostedBy ?sensor. 	?sensor sosa-core:madeObservation ?observation. }
21:20:08 <kerry> q?
21:20:45 <kerry> ack roba
21:21:29 <kerry> roba: sosa core describes things as owl classess and object properties where I thought it should be rdf with owl making those assertions in a spearte model
21:22:00 <kerry> ...also examples was looking for relation between obs , sample, and foi, but sample is not referenced in example so cannot see how to get to foi
21:22:27 <SimonCox> Q+
21:22:27 <kerry> KJanowic: seel line 39
21:22:42 <kerry> roba: yes but cannot see how to get from obs to that
21:22:55 <kerry> KJanowic: yes, not there, just did not get to it
21:22:57 <SimonCox> q-
21:22:57 <kerry> q?
21:23:08 <kerry> robs: rdf scope/
21:23:57 <kerry> KJanowic: not about rdf vs owl -- about what is intuitively understandable without over burden, a little bit of rdfs, a little bit of owl, a litt bit of scheam.org
21:24:03 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:24:11 <kerry> q?
21:24:19 <kerry> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:24:26 <KJanowic> @Roba: this is not about rdf vs owl but about a fragment  of Web-scale KRs that is intuitively understandable to Web developers, end users, and so forth.
21:25:08 <kerry> q+
21:25:28 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: uses syntax from owl that implies  logic - what is intent here?
21:27:17 <roba> KJanowic: uses meta - annotates without introducing owl logic
21:27:47 <roba> ...inverse is useful to help Web developers formulate the right queries
21:27:54 <kerry> q?
21:28:12 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:28:43 <roba> kerry: important issues are discussed on public email list - github tracker not expected to be visible to all
21:29:04 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/336
21:29:04 <KJanowic> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/334
21:29:28 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/309
21:30:19 <roba> KJanowic: issues posted to public list when discussion settles down - commits and comments on merges
21:30:23 <KJanowic> https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues
21:31:23 <roba> q+
21:31:30 <SimonCox> For discussion on inverse properties - see https://github.com/w3c/sdw/issues/334
21:32:12 <kerry> q?
21:32:43 <KJanowic> @roba: yes, exactly. Back and forth on specific lines of code on github, bigger picture and regular updates on the mailinglist
21:32:48 <SimonCox> q+
21:33:25 <roba> kerry: PROV removed inverse properties - to stay within OWL-RL - noted in comments still
21:33:43 <roba> ...introduces heavy demands
21:33:45 <ClausStadler> q+
21:33:57 <roba> ...asks to revisit
21:34:01 <kerry> ack kerry
21:35:07 <kerry> q?
21:35:12 <kerry> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:35:33 <KJanowic> inverseOf open for discussion.
21:35:34 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: back to logical impications
21:36:37 <roba> ...inverse requires entailment in store to be used (did i get that right?)
21:37:01 <kerry> +1 to danh's concern
21:38:25 <roba> KJanowic: most high performance 3-stores dont use any rules (is sad... but accepting)
21:39:42 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: notes at least RDFS reasoning supported
21:39:45 <ahaller2> ahaller2: I was agnostic, but a bit sceptical about the inverse properties in the core, and it seems the majority here does not want them in the core
21:40:10 <kerry> q?
21:40:12 <roba> KJanowic: allows data to be compressed
21:41:09 <kerry> ack roba
21:41:22 <kerry> +1!!!!
21:41:29 <KJanowic> Will do
21:41:32 <KJanowic> I promise
21:41:51 <SimonCox> Yes - we should put a stub email on the list with link to issue in tracker
21:42:59 <kerry> roba: wants to see core linked to owl-dl entailment (not sure I got this) bu annotation
21:43:10 <SimonCox> s/tracker/github/
21:43:23 <kerry> ... would be happy to live with rdfs but want to see the owl-dl as well
21:43:46 <kerry> q?
21:44:36 <ahaller2> s/bu /but
21:44:49 <kerry> +1 to rob's comment
21:45:18 <kerry> q?
21:45:24 <DanhLePhuoc> agree with Jano that : triple store can specify the entailments they could support: https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-entailment/
21:45:33 <DanhLePhuoc> +q
21:46:01 <kerry> skos does have formal semantics as defined by owl-dl -- just "simpler" semantics
21:47:14 <kerry> q?
21:48:00 <kerry> issue: what reasoning language should the core use?
21:48:01 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-72 - What reasoning language should the core use?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/72/edit>.
21:49:01 <kerry> ack SimonCox
21:49:07 <KJanowic> Thanks Roba, Danh, this is super, super helpful!
21:50:04 <kerry> q?
21:50:55 <kerry> ack ClausStadler
21:51:01 <roba> SimonCox: audience is key - been thinking about the Web Developer use case - not currently looking at others
21:51:02 <ClausStadler> https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/#vocabulary-overview
21:51:12 <KJanowic> check also the  "semantic web for the working ontologist" book by Jim and Dean on inverse properties
21:52:51 <roba> ClausStadler: inverse means that can make relationship work from the related resource - dont have to update the source
21:53:03 <KJanowic> +1 to Claus
21:53:41 <roba> ...but useful to have inverse properties in spec so dont have to hijack the ontology namespace
21:53:46 <kerry> q?
21:54:00 <roba> why cant we formalise in sosa-core-owl.ttl ?
21:54:01 <kerry> ack
21:54:09 <kerry> ack danh
21:54:33 <kerry> rrsagent, make logs public
21:54:35 <roba> and have inverse in core, without OWL axiom (annotation) and achieve this?
21:54:43 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:54:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/09-sdwssn-minutes.html kerry
21:55:07 <roba> DanhLePhuoc: why not describe inverse as descriptive property
21:55:50 <roba> KJanowic: needed inverse property in SPARQL
21:56:03 <roba> isnt that also a "choice of the triple store?"
21:56:06 <ahaller2> @roba we will formalise the core in the vertical layers, if we decide that there is only RDF(S) in the core, it would be formalised in the vertical core, so that would fulfil your requirement
21:56:08 <roba> q+
21:56:16 <ClausStadler> q+
21:56:28 <kerry> ack roba
21:56:53 <kerry> q?
21:57:15 <KJanowic> q+
21:57:26 <kerry> topic: What should we do at F2F?
21:57:54 <roba> roba: SPARQL Use Case is important - but introduces an interoperability contract between the querier, the triple store's entailment regime and the underlying ontology
21:57:55 <KJanowic> @all: Thanks a lot! This was very helpful and productive.
21:58:20 <kerry> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_F2F4
21:58:24 <KJanowic> @roba: I have to think about this. I dont have a ready answer right now
21:58:47 <roba> roba: asks for the audience and such contracts to be much more clearly expressed in documentation (included embedded documents)
21:59:18 <ahaller2> @KJanowic you are not coming?
21:59:37 <roba> kerry: asks for potential attendees at F2F to identy themselves
22:00:06 <roba> s/identy/identify
22:00:35 <KJanowic> @ahaller2: most likely not, we are expecting this fall
22:01:14 <ahaller2> @KJanowic fair enough, that's an excuse :-)
22:01:40 <SefkiKolozali_UniS> I can participate online
22:01:42 <kerry> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/
22:02:10 <KJanowic> Thanks everybody!
22:02:26 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/09-sdwssn-minutes.html kerry
22:03:05 <SefkiKolozali_UniS> okay
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