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16:57:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/08-aria-apg-irc
16:57:24 <mck> zakim, clear agenda
16:57:24 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:57:51 <mck> Meeting: August 8, ARIA APG TF
16:58:02 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/08-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
16:58:33 <mck> rrsagent, make log world
17:00:33 <mck> Agenda+ Issue#12 code review guide (Ian) https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/12
17:00:35 <mck> Agenda+ Issue#35: Adapt dev docs style for code examples? https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/35
17:00:37 <mck> Agenda+ Issue 17 - Breadcrumb design pattern (Michiel) https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/17
17:00:38 <mck> Agenda+ Issue#69: Accordion Arrow Key Navigation https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/69
17:00:40 <mck> Agenda+ Issue#29: 2.13 Grid (Simple Data Tables) - changes https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/29
17:00:41 <mck> Agenda+ Review status of current example development work https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Design-Patterns-Status
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17:03:16 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:03:21 <MichielBijl> regrets+ Ian_Pouncey
17:04:24 <MichielBijl> regrets+ Jon_Gunderson
17:04:33 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
17:05:18 <MichielBijl> regrets+ Byan_Garaventa
17:05:24 <Birkir> Is the meeting password apg or aria-apg, I tried apg in the WebEx client and got an incorrect pasword error along with the CAPTCHA.
17:05:55 <Birkir> present+ Birkir
17:06:25 <MichielBijl> regrets+ James_Nurthen
17:06:48 <annabbott> present+ AnnAbbott
17:06:49 <mck> chair: Matt King
17:07:04 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:10:42 <MichielBijl> Scribe: MichielBijl
17:11:36 <mck> zakim, drop agendum 1
17:11:36 <Zakim> agendum 1, Issue#12 code review guide (Ian) https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/12, dropped
17:12:10 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up agendum 2
17:12:10 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue#35: Adapt dev docs style for code examples? https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/35" taken up [from mck]
17:12:39 <MichielBijl> MK: not necessarily understand the request
17:16:44 <MichielBijl> MB: make APG more like MDN
17:16:52 <MichielBijl> MK: Not something we can do now
17:18:18 <MichielBijl> MB: So maybe something for the future?
17:18:23 <MichielBijl> MK: Yeah that could work
17:22:34 <MichielBijl> zakim, take up next item
17:22:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue 17 - Breadcrumb design pattern (Michiel) https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/17" taken up [from mck]
17:24:15 <mck> http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#breadcrumb
17:26:42 <MichielBijl> MK: Breadcrumbs aren't necessarily hierarchical
17:26:50 <MichielBijl> AA: They usually are no?
17:26:54 <MichielBijl> MB: Think they always are
17:27:23 <MichielBijl> MK: Well some pages land in different sections or categories
17:27:38 <MichielBijl> MB: True, but would still be hierarchical
17:28:47 <Birkir> scribe: Birkir
17:29:35 <Birkir> MK: Breadcrumbs are most often right aboe the main content of the page.
17:29:57 <Birkir> s/aboe/above
17:31:30 <Birkir> MK: Do we need the statement recommending ordered lists? WE generally don't recommend specific constructs unless it is particular to the interaction.
17:32:22 <Birkir> MB: I want to keep it in, but if you don't agree it is not necessarily necessary.
17:32:59 <Birkir> MK: Better to put the data structure in the examples.
17:34:10 <Birkir> Birkir: Most breadcrumbs I see use unordered list or div markup.
17:34:39 <Birkir> MB: Usually I see separators, and the lists usually use a style of bullet:none.
17:35:25 <Birkir> MB: The 2014 WEbAIM survey asked users to rate breadcrumb pattenrs, users prefered the ordered list one.
17:35:52 <MichielBijl> http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey5/breadcrumbs.htm
17:37:13 <Birkir> MK: Little difference between 1 and 2, except perhaps with Voiceover.
17:37:30 <Birkir> AA: More than twice as many people prefered an ordered list to an unordered one.
17:40:00 <Birkir> MK: WebAIM's breadcrumb examples use lists where CSS removes the bullets, which causes screen readers not to announce individual list items (though users can still navigate between them).
17:40:55 <Birkir> MB: I can accept removing this paragraph, rather than spending 40 minutes discussing it. ;)
17:41:15 <Birkir> MK: WE are not dropping the paragraph entirely, just removing the contents from the spec to the examples.
17:41:57 <Birkir> MB: So we agree to remove the paragraph?
17:42:27 <Birkir> Group agrees! MB will do the honors.
17:42:44 <Birkir> AA: Should we add the role="navigation"?
17:43:10 <Birkir> MB: Yes, put it as the first bullet under the "Aria roles and attributes" heading.
17:44:40 <Birkir> MK: We can create examples where breadcrumb widgets are implemented as a single tab stop. If so, refer to examples in the keyboard section.
17:45:58 <Birkir> Birkir: Perhasp not over recommend complex components on breadcrumb trails.
17:47:30 <Birkir> MK: For some scenarios (such as when we have a long breadcrumb list), a single tab stop might be beneficial. We should at least implement a plug-and-play Javascript example for a single tabstop breqdcrumb widget.
17:47:45 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/72
17:47:53 <Birkir> MB: Creates issue t#72 to create one.
17:49:21 <Birkir> MK: We are ready to close issue 17.
17:49:32 <Birkir> zakim, next item
17:49:32 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue#69: Accordion Arrow Key Navigation https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/69" taken up [from mck]
17:50:53 <Birkir> MK: There is a problem with the code page itself, unable to see the sourcecode.
17:51:21 <Birkir> AA: I think designrs will push back on having the current (last) item bold.
17:51:42 <Birkir> MB: does not have to be bold, but should be styled different.
17:52:45 <Birkir> MB: Used a link here to use aria-current.
17:53:41 <Birkir> Birkir: Perhaps create a different breadcrumb widget where link to current page is not a link.
17:54:52 <Birkir> MK: Do we need multiple examples, I don't think so.
17:55:28 <Birkir> MB: Using aria-current gives the most information to the machine using it.
17:56:18 <Birkir> MK: We could sovle this by adding a note that if the last link (to current page) is implemented as static text, aria-current is not required.
17:58:01 <Birkir> Group agrees to add a note to current examples explaining the static text option. This should be added to the APG itself.
18:00:00 <Birkir> Note has been aded, courtessy of MB.
18:04:13 <Birkir> Onto issue 69 (item 3), the group had a detour.
18:08:41 <Birkir> TOPIC: nOW WE ARE DISCUSSING ISSUE 69 FOR REAL!
18:09:07 <MichielBijl> MB: So about those breadcrumbs…
18:09:36 <mck> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/69
18:11:43 <Birkir> MK: Recommended change, drop the tab roles for an accordion pattern.
18:12:37 <Birkir> MK: We got feedback about the orientation of the tabs.
18:12:42 <MichielBijl> Link to design pattern: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#accordion
18:13:13 <mck> We are replacing the accordian design pattern with one that does not use the tab or tabpanel roles. So, there will not be a nee
18:15:31 <Birkir> zakim, next item
18:15:31 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Issue#29: 2.13 Grid (Simple Data Tables) - changes https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/29" taken up [from mck]
18:16:17 <Birkir> MK: I was wroking on issues that An raised.
18:17:46 <MichielBijl> http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#grid
18:21:00 <Birkir> Birkir: Asking about difference btween arrow keys wrapping in data grids vs. layout grids.
18:21:43 <Birkir> MK: Useful when dealing with data it is useful to know that we ahve reached the end of a row or column.
18:22:29 <Birkir> Birkir: Was thinking specifically about datepickers.
18:23:49 <Birkir> MK: datepickers are a little different, we need to document that in the datepicekr pattern.
18:25:29 <annabbott> Bryan Garaventa's examples: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/accessible-date-pickers-flexible-disabled-ranges-bryan-garaventa
18:27:32 <Birkir> MK: The introductary text indicates that the keyboard recommendations are flexible.
18:27:44 <Birkir> AA: Do we want to include Bryan's examples.
18:29:13 <Birkir> AA: Don't we want to link date pickers and grids.
18:29:32 <Birkir> MK: We can when we get the datepicker pattern done.
18:30:41 <Birkir> MK: Bryan's datepicker example is not APG ready, because it uses an external library.
18:30:59 <Birkir> rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/08-aria-apg-minutes.html Birkir
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