16:01:31 RRSAgent has joined #wpwg 16:01:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-wpwg-irc 16:02:10 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20160804 16:02:52 Zakim has joined #wpwg 16:02:57 kriske has joined #wpwg 16:03:02 zakim, this web payments 16:03:02 I don't understand 'this web payments', AdrianHB 16:03:06 present+ kriske 16:03:09 zakim, this is web payments 16:03:09 got it, AdrianHB 16:03:18 trackball, start meeting 16:03:23 trackbot, start meeting 16:03:25 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:03:27 Zakim, this will be 16:03:27 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 16:03:28 Meeting: Web Payments Working Group Teleconference 16:03:28 Date: 04 August 2016 16:03:30 zkoch has joined #wpwg 16:03:32 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20160804 16:03:43 present+ alyver 16:03:51 Call in should be working now 16:04:03 present+ Ian 16:04:07 present+ zkoch 16:04:14 (on IRC, will call in in a bit, conflict this AM) 16:04:18 present+ adam 16:04:19 dezell has joined #wpwg 16:04:49 present+ dlongley 16:04:51 Laurent has joined #Wpwg 16:04:56 present+ adrianhb 16:05:02 present+ Manu 16:05:12 present+ dezell 16:05:39 présent+ laurent 16:05:39 regrets+ NickTR 16:06:24 Adrian: Sorry I did not send out the agenda to the list; that was an error 16:06:25 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20160804 16:06:57 present+ ShaneM 16:07:10 Topic: Time of this call 16:07:17 maheshk has joined #wpwg 16:07:24 AdrianHB: We have received 10 replies to the call for input 16:07:28 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2016Jul/0147.html 16:07:48 ...unfortunately the responses are pretty mixed, but by a thin margin the group prefers the earlier slot 16:08:37 ...The time would be 2pm UTC (which right now is 7am PT, 9am Chicago) 16:09:14 IJ: Will it change with daylight savings time? 16:09:15 Ian: There is a question about if this is going to change if it becomes 6am when DST starts, we should be transparent on which way it's going to go. 16:09:31 s/DST starts/DST stops 16:10:10 10 ET 16:10:32 Ian: What I have done on the WGs page is write the UTC time and change the UTC time when the meeting changes. 16:10:49 PROPOSED: New meeting time is 10am ET on Thursdays 16:11:11 AdrianHB: Matt S, unfortunately, cannot make either time 16:11:19 ...I will pick this up with him separately 16:11:19 +1 to new time 16:11:35 (but sad to hear that MattS won't be able to join us) 16:11:38 AdrianHB: Any objections? 16:11:54 +1 for 10am EST 16:12:07 In an ironic twist, I actuallky have a new conflict with that time. every other week. oh well. it is payments related. I will work it out. 16:12:08 +1 16:12:10 RESOLVED: Start 10am ET meeting time effective 11 August 2016 16:12:20 ACTION: Ian to update the WebEx information and inform the group 16:12:20 'Ian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ijacobs, ijmad). 16:12:40 topic: TPAC 2016 16:12:45 AdrianHB: Please register 16:12:50 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2016/?login 16:13:18 NOTE: fee goes up 2 September 2016 16:13:25 AdrianHB: We are starting to build the agenda 16:13:44 ..one idea is to have a dedicated agenda on first day, and use day 2 for breakouts and editing sessions 16:14:07 q? 16:14:14 +1 to workday for specs 16:14:42 q+ to talk about virtual f2f meetings 16:14:45 AdrianHB: So we will put in draft agenda the plan to leave a lot of time for editing and breakouts; with more structured day 1 16:15:08 rouslan has joined #wpwg 16:15:16 ack sh 16:15:16 ShaneM, you wanted to talk about virtual f2f meetings 16:15:39 ShaneM: Other groups I work in organizes longer sessions for editing; we could do that too 16:16:01 AdrianHB: Yes, editors can do this 16:16:07 ..and invite others to work with them 16:16:29 virtual break out sessions 16:16:30 ...might not happen between now and Lisbon 16:16:34 q? 16:16:35 q+ to ask about HTTP API and Core Messages and Browser API comments and when to do PRs / questions? 16:17:04 Manu: Re TPAC, we are waiting for AdrianHB... 16:17:18 Laurent has joined #Wpwg 16:17:20 q+ to ask people to raise issues 16:17:24 ack manu 16:17:24 manu, you wanted to ask about HTTP API and Core Messages and Browser API comments and when to do PRs / questions? 16:17:36 Manu: I've been holding off sending in issues to align with WG priorities 16:17:42 ..I don't know what to propose at TPAC 16:18:26 AdrianHB: I discussed with Ian and Nick on Tuesday. My concern at the moment is that there are streams of work that are happening that are not getting participation from everyone in the group 16:18:48 ...don't want to have to unwind work 16:19:02 q+ to state specifically that we want to implement payment apps that support HTTP API and Browser API - we don't know how to do that right now. 16:19:04 ..I'm concerned with Core messages and HTTP API that only a small set of people in the WG are giving that work attention 16:19:16 ...we want work in parallel but also need to prioritize our time 16:19:38 ...don't want to get too far down a path and then have to unwind previous decisions....that's my worry 16:19:51 ...personally I don't think we should publish Core Messages yet...I would object 16:19:58 ...so if we do a CFC now I am going to object 16:20:25 q+ to say that I would rather stop starting and start 16:20:34 ...for the reason that I don't think that WG has not yet had enough input from the WG....we can't merely change by changing the spec; we need to get people more engaged, and I don't think we can do that until we have dealt with the higher priority stuff 16:21:27 q+ 16:21:42 Ian: I don't think this is related to our TPAC agenda, please raise Browser API issues as soon as possible. 16:21:48 zkoch has joined #wpwg 16:21:52 ack me 16:21:52 Ian, you wanted to ask people to raise issues 16:22:19 IJ: Please let's close this (non-TPAC agenda item) by bottom of hour 16:22:24 AdrianHB: Ok 8 mins 16:22:30 ack manu 16:22:30 manu, you wanted to state specifically that we want to implement payment apps that support HTTP API and Browser API - we don't know how to do that right now. 16:22:51 (I’m on the call now) 16:22:56 Manu: Here's the specific issue we have: digital bazaar spec would like to write apps that conform to the payment request API and the payment app spec. 16:23:13 ..from a company perspective we are trying to write products that implement both the HTTP API and the payment request API 16:23:23 ..in order to do that, we need the spec to at least be published 16:23:53 ..we can take core messages spec and put in the HTTP API spec 16:24:01 ...we need a way forward..can't just block the work 16:24:11 q? 16:24:14 q+ AdrianHB 16:24:15 ack Sh 16:24:15 ShaneM, you wanted to say that I would rather stop starting and start 16:24:39 ShaneM: Suggest we do the CFC and get input 16:24:44 ack Kris 16:26:41 kriske: There is also an interop question - are HTTP API and core messages taking into account flows (e.g., cards standards, SEPA flows) 16:26:57 ...in that sense I am wondering whether it's appropriate to send out the CFC at this time 16:27:39 AdrianHB: In terms of next steps, my issue is not with HTTP API. It is around core messages and positioning as a common data model; that's not what it is. We are sending the wrong message if we say that we are saying we designed the APIs to work off a common data model; that's not what has happened in practice 16:28:02 Adam_ has joined #wpwg 16:28:02 ...if we just published HTTP API independently and down the line are able to extract a common data model, that's great. 16:28:15 Yes, but we can put in an issue marker calling that out in Core Messages... we're not there yet 16:28:28 we can always add an issue to the core messages spec that says that the browser API doesn't comply with/use the core messages spec at this time (and may never) ... but other APIs will 16:29:08 adrianHB: I have not started CFC yet because there would be a known objection (from me). 16:29:09 the first set of specs we published in this group were very rough and filled with issues in this same manner. 16:29:44 AdrianHB: Kris, regarding divergence in messaging ... we are focused on initiation ...and want to interop well with existing protocols and standards 16:29:50 Exactly! But the messages that ultimately need to go into the payment network must have the required information... 16:30:24 kris: I agree with that. The issue with cards is slightly different..the cards issue is more about an overlap...the concern is that some flows may overlap what is going on in this group 16:30:48 kris: For sure what is happening in web payments wg space will 'get into" iso space and so we need to take into account what's there already ... in both directions 16:31:07 ...there are some requirements from the banking space we need to be taking into account 16:31:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 16:31:27 AdrianHB: I suggest Kris and I speak offline 16:31:53 AdrianHB: I also suggest Manu and I chat offline about http api and core messages...but I am concerned that the group is moving forward even if lower priority 16:32:03 AdrianHB: Happy to talk offline about it. 16:32:11 q? 16:32:12 ack me 16:32:13 +1 to AdrianHB+Manu on issue markers possibly being the way to go 16:32:18 ack A 16:32:23 topic: PAG 16:32:31 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2016Aug/0035.html 16:32:38 Ian: Do not talk about patents in this WG 16:33:25 Ian: The PAG will meet, the lawyers will deal with it, meanwhile the WG can continue its work. 16:33:38 Topic: PMI Proposal from Zach 16:33:44 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/proposals/zach-pmi.md 16:34:07 Adrian's issue logged: 16:34:07 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/issues/170 16:34:16 I can confirm that zach has confirmed that he is here. 16:34:29 s/I can confirm that zach has confirmed that he is here.// 16:34:36 zkoch: I read minutes and saw issues we'll address 16:34:41 ..next steps is to turn proposal into spec text 16:35:23 IJ: AdamR, status of looking into what the right practice is if we use URNs. 16:35:35 Adam_: I will have something by 11 August meeting 16:36:08 AdrianHB: Do you want to update explainer before spec text to address issues? 16:36:17 zkoch: Yes. 16:36:19 matts_ has joined #wpwg 16:36:38 zkoch: I will send a diff for people to look at 16:36:45 ...will work on that early next week 16:36:51 q+ 16:37:03 Were there any other major issues that people wanted to bring up while we’re talking about this? 16:37:04 AdrianHB: This is key work to finalize ASAP because it affects everything else 16:37:29 I brought up the issues that we found last week, none of them were major, thanks for putting this together zkoch. 16:37:43 AdrianHB: Next week I would like to give Zach the go-ahead to write the spec text 16:37:47 ack me 16:38:10 IJ: Will (some of or all) of the spec text will go into PMI spec? 16:38:10 zkoch: Yes 16:39:02 IJ: Are there other issues needed for implementations? 16:39:07 zkoch: I think this is the last big blocking thing. 16:39:13 ...we have a list of feedback from merchant conversations 16:39:19 ..but PMIs is the last big "blocking thing" 16:39:21 q+ 16:39:26 ...after we have the update, we'll circle back with a new set of issues 16:39:31 ack me 16:39:32 ack Ad 16:39:48 (manu, remind me what your major issues are just so I make sure they’re addressed) 16:39:53 AdrianHB: The proposal talks about two types of PMIs 16:40:04 ...we've called them "open" and "proprietary" (or similar) 16:40:17 ...are you having conversations with implementers of both types? 16:40:32 ...e.g., Alipay or Paypal [IJ: or Samsung Pay or Yandex Money, etc.] 16:41:16 zkoch: We have had a number of conversations with orgs of closed systems ... both types (1) 1:1 relationship between method/payment app but also (2) proprietary method is delegated to other parties 16:41:24 ..so the spec reflects both of those types 16:41:32 AdrianHB: Other comments from other implementers welcome 16:41:57 AdrianHB: The next question is - what do those parties think about payment apps...we'd like to have those people close to payment apps discussions 16:42:03 zkoch, no major issues - just 1) how do we manage the URN space (AdamR's looking into that), and 2) whether or not we can make the matching algorithm more "tag-based" - meaning, making this not only for cards, but payment methods in general (but this one is far lower concern/priority) - both can wait until after it goes into ReSpec 16:42:34 zkoch: I encourage that people participate directly in the work, but I also bring back their feedback. 16:42:47 ...i think we are on the right track with payment apps having both web and native apps 16:43:11 ...I don't think we are yet at the state of surfacing specs related to third party payment apps to app developers 16:43:19 ..but there is a lot of interest in being part of this ecosystem 16:43:20 q+ 16:43:41 AdrianHB: I think that we are at a point where iteration over prototypes would help us with payment app direction 16:44:12 ....it would be useful to get people who are planning to implement this commercially building this 16:44:27 To clarify - Digital Bazaar plans to implement this commercially. 16:44:35 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/PaymentApp_Notes#design-considerations 16:45:36 sg! 16:45:40 Manu - sorry, did not mean to imply you didn't. I meant to say that we'd like to see prototypes from existing payment processors 16:45:41 IJ: Engaging at the design considerations a good entry point 16:45:42 ::insert thumbs up emoji:: 16:46:07 topic: Security Next Steps 16:46:19 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w7ginyzNg-xZUmITK4vzcGUKB4gbMOAvlkWWaRtX14k/edit?pli=1# 16:46:46 IJ: I need to sync up with AdamR and Jonny on next steps 16:47:37 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Security-and-Privacy-Considerations 16:48:28 q+ 16:48:31 ack me 16:48:38 ack me 16:48:40 IJ: Not sure our plans for filling out / using the security considerations 16:49:02 AdrianHB: My understanding is that we would put wiki page together as a place to aggregate people's comments 16:49:12 ...it's difficult to say "we need to encrypt fields" if we can't say why 16:49:24 ..so I believe the document is intended to justify design decisions like that 16:49:27 q+ to make comments on the document, since he wrote a good chunk of it. 16:49:37 ...goal at this point is to document issues 16:50:02 ack manu 16:50:02 manu, you wanted to make comments on the document, since he wrote a good chunk of it. 16:50:13 ...and we might use this document in different ways (e.g.,content for security considerations in a spec, or change spec) 16:50:29 manu: IETF has sections you look at...I put those sections in this document 16:50:39 ...I tried to think of specific attacks against of payment request API 16:51:09 ...typically you can take this and migrate this into a security considerations part of a spec 16:51:15 https://www.w3.org/TR/security-privacy-questionnaire/ 16:51:31 ...I am overloaded and cannot spend more time on this 16:51:45 ..I hope some of our engineers at d.b. can come back in a few months 16:52:07 AdrianHB: So I think we've summarized the intent; whether we get to it will come down to the will of the WG 16:52:12 ...to do work 16:54:09 IJ: Any concrete volunteers to do work on this for 2 weeks from now? 16:54:12 [No volunteers] 16:54:33 AdrianHB: I will ask again for volunteers next week ... if you can find someone in your org to help, that would be great 16:55:07 Topic: Conf heads-up 16:55:29 Conference mention iX Payment 2016, 30 Nov 2016 in Darmstadt 16:56:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 16:56:15 q+ 16:56:27 ack me 16:58:15 We’ve already announced support 16:58:21 But can chat further 16:58:37 Topic: Next meeting 16:58:42 11 August at 10:00 ET 16:58:49 (IJ will update webex info TOMORROW) 16:58:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/04-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 17:09:39 matt_ has joined #wpwg 17:14:42 alyver has joined #wpwg 17:18:21 zkoch has joined #wpwg 17:24:31 zkoch has joined #wpwg 17:31:10 alyver has joined #wpwg 17:42:03 alyver has joined #wpwg 17:51:20 alyver has joined #wpwg 17:52:08 Adam_ has joined #wpwg 17:58:21 alyver has joined #wpwg 18:04:41 alyver has joined #wpwg 18:32:04 alyver has joined #wpwg 18:35:41 alyver has joined #wpwg 19:01:11 alyver has joined #wpwg 19:03:07 Zakim has left #wpwg 19:27:56 alyver has joined #wpwg 19:46:49 alyver has joined #wpwg 20:17:10 alyver has joined #wpwg 20:21:12 alyver has joined #wpwg 20:43:49 Adam_ has joined #wpwg 20:46:21 alyver has joined #wpwg 21:19:16 alyver has joined #wpwg 21:31:42 alyver has joined #wpwg 21:34:56 adamlake has joined #wpwg 22:04:28 adamlake has joined #wpwg 22:15:05 alyver has joined #wpwg 23:38:50 adamlake has joined #wpwg