18:04:58 RRSAgent has joined #mathonwebpages 18:04:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-mathonwebpages-irc 18:05:22 invite rrsagent #mathonwebpages 18:05:32 invite trackbot #mathonwebpages 18:05:43 title: Math On Web Pages 18:06:02 chair: pkra 18:06:06 scribenick: pkra 18:06:06 scribe: pkra 18:06:31 pkra: anything for the agenda? 18:06:51 jos: last time, intros. We all saw that there's a problem. How do we get to a concrete taks? 18:07:14 Dani: good idea. I started collecting samples. Would be a good thing for next meeting. 18:07:29 Jason: can share some desmos to make mathquill accessible (aria alerts) 18:07:34 ... could talk about that. 18:08:17 tzviya: there's now a TPAC slot for this group. Plans? 18:09:24 pkra: should we have more discussion about meeting times? 18:09:39 Charles: having monthly works well for now. 18:09:59 monthly meetings also seem good to me 18:10:32 jos: it's the summer. But this works well for me. 18:11:00 pkra: ok, so let's keep this time and rhyth for a few meetings at least. 18:11:19 https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages 18:11:24 pkra: we have a github repo 18:11:32 https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/ 18:11:39 ... there's a basic page now. 18:12:32 Dani: I would like to see examples, in particular for things that we want to see fixed. 18:12:41 ... I'm working on something but not yet public. 18:12:52 ... baseline alignment, vertical stacks, stretching 18:12:57 present+ tzviya, clappiere, pkra, jos, jwmerrill 18:13:22 present+ Dani 18:13:29 s/clappierre/clapierre/ 18:14:31 present+ johnp 18:14:42 pkra: what other ideas for examples / use of repo? 18:15:32 tzivya: would be great to see some examples of using aria 18:15:56 jason: [screenshare of editing with VO on desmos] 18:16:25 ... typing is being read back 18:17:16 ... mathquill's internal model of edit tree. We've added aria-alerts that trigger when moving in the expression. 18:17:31 ... there's a PR to mathquill. 18:17:43 ... any questions? 18:18:00 Charles: the Braille. Is it Nemeth or just text? 18:18:20 Jason: just VO's feature now. We've been experimenting with a braille output. 18:18:25 ... [more demo] 18:18:52 ... this is an experiment right now but have been working on translating to UEB but might do Nemeth as well. 18:19:19 tzviya: how do you structure math to trigger alerts? 18:19:31 jason: mathquill uses input/output LaTeX but an internal expression tree 18:19:36 ... different from MathML 18:19:50 ... hard to explain. 18:20:13 tzivya: just trying to look at aria alert and can't quite match it up. 18:20:46 jason: there's a div and we push alerts into it. 18:22:38 pkra: this is very different to what MathJax's a11y / Speechruleengine does. 18:22:44 s/different/similar 18:24:04 tzivya: we should write something up about this to tell ARIA people. 18:24:31 peter: IIRC, this kind of semantic tree format is very common, people keep inventing something like it. 18:25:29 Dani: are you using live regions? 18:25:48 Jason: not 100% sure. It would be good to have the engineer on. 18:26:07 Jos: I like converting from formula, then converting to an expression that can be evaluated. 18:26:14 ... that's something I'm very interested in. 18:26:24 ... looking for a set of components to interact with each other 18:27:03 jason: adding semantic information is the magic behind it. For Desmos is mostly proprietary. MathQuill is all public / OSS 18:27:23 ... Perhaps for another time but interested in discussion of semantic vs presentation. 18:27:41 ... in this system not thinking about it too much 18:28:05 ... not sure what the motivation is to get semantics to AT since visual users also don't just derive that information. 18:28:26 Dani: we also just do open/closed-parens instead of semantic approach. 18:28:42 tzivya: could you clarify what you think of with "semantics"? 18:29:24 Jason: good point. Easier perhaps to talk about examples. f ( x) could be function applied to an element x, or multplication of f and a term x. 18:29:36 ... making that distinction is important. 18:29:53 s/important/ what I think of 18:31:02 pkra: thanks for the screenshare 18:31:56 pkra: how much do you think the internal model structure will be documented? 18:32:05 jason: really for Han to say. But we'd like to be more . 18:32:20 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/26 18:32:34 pkra: this was an issue I raised a while back. 18:33:23 ... in that issue is a link to a couple of example of mine http://codepen.io/pkra/pen/zqrwQx 18:36:10 ... I'm interested in "deep labels", so that speech-text is in there and navigation is by usual methods. 18:36:30 Charles: should we try to look for something along the lines of the DPUB ARIA module? 18:36:40 Dani: that sound like a good path. 18:37:11 tzviya: on the one hand, DPUB module has been 2 years of solid work. 18:37:35 ... on the other hand, pkra argued that it would lead to re-encode most of MathML in ARIA roles. 18:41:09 most recent version of ARIA Best Practices is at https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/aria-practices/master/aria-practices.html, but math section has not changed 18:43:11 http://mathjs.org 18:43:38 pkra: maybe let me try: if you really want to be sure something gets across as integers, then you can't rely on any presentational structure. You need a role or an element (a la Content MathML) 18:43:46 ... and then you add all those specifics. 18:44:20 ... but there's still lots of ground to build on. 18:44:47 ... mathjs is an example where you have very precise semantics and you can do great things. Most textbook material is very different. 18:45:24 Jason: also have the impression that the fact that math notation is still here, 40 years after programming is common, tells us something. 18:45:33 tzivya: aria 1.1 is about to be published. 18:46:19 ... aria 2 is going to be significant change. Might be more a programming language. 18:46:32 ... but definitely handle more complex use cases. 18:46:49 ... writing something up that we can show them, show what the needs are. 18:47:06 ... that would be useful, even if this group has other concerns. 18:47:21 ... we should get on the ground for 2.0 work starting up. 18:48:13 Charles: second that. Collaborating with ARIA should be very good. 18:50:04 pkra: I've been thinking about summary labels to provide description for both labels and summary describing the subtree 18:50:16 ... e.g., long expression but also SVG images should be similar. 18:50:29 ... red brick house => door with windows. 18:50:48 Charles: just talked to Doug Scheepers who's looking it a larger project 18:51:48 SVG Accessibility API Mappings are about to publish. That already makes SVG significantly more accessible than in the past 18:51:56 tzviya: SVG Accessibility API Mappings are about to publish. That already makes SVG significantly more accessible than in the past 18:55:35 pkra: from the conversation starter: machine readability 18:56:02 ... I've been wondering about the usefulness of microdata / schema.org style to markup partial information so that search can be improved. 18:56:38 tzivya: thinking mostly about machine readability for processing / computation. 18:57:03 ... at Wiley, authors presenting data is more valuable than the article. Runnable code is even better. 18:59:41 Charles: are you suggesting to propose something for schema.org? 18:59:44 https://www.wikiwand.com/nl/Mathcad 18:59:55 pkra: probably not, more internal purposes, e.g., for publisher. 19:00:02 ... e.g., what science.ai does 19:00:14 jos: do you know MathCad (see link) 19:01:15 ... being able to interact with the computation. 19:01:33 pkra: looks similar to IPython / Jupyter. 19:02:15 rrsagent, make logs public 19:02:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:02:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/28-mathonwebpages-minutes.html clapierre 19:26:49 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 19:27:50 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 19:30:10 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 19:32:07 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 19:37:44 KartikPrabhu has joined #mathonwebpages 19:55:30 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 19:57:12 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:48:13 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:48:41 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:48:49 Zakim has left #mathonwebpages 20:49:12 clapierre1 has joined #mathonwebpages 20:49:31 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:49:58 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:50:17 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:50:27 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:53:44 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 20:57:27 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 21:26:07 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 21:37:33 clapierre has joined #mathonwebpages 22:08:14 clapierre has left #mathonwebpages