IRC log of auto on 2016-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:04:37 [ted]
Song: everything is based on same origin policy
00:07:25 [ted]
Kevin: I am not sure we need to solve the application distribution problem
00:07:39 [ted]
Powell: correct, we can just say you need a token
00:08:41 [ted]
Rudi: token is signed by OEM and when the token is verified, specific information that can be shared with the application a UI can prompt user to opt in
00:09:07 [ted]
… subsequent times the app is run the IVI system will know it went through the verification and opt in
00:11:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
00:20:09 [ted]
Ted: you can send a subscribe to top of the tree with your token and get back all the data elements you are entitled to
00:20:57 [ted]
Kevin: yes and a scenario is you might have a priviledged application like ADAS that is allowed full access
00:51:03 [ted]
[whiteboard exercise led by Powell going over client server token interactions, verification]
00:51:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
01:02:54 [kaz]
<img alt="powell's picture" />
01:03:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:03:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
03:44:20 [yingying]
yingying has joined #auto
03:54:09 [yingying_]
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kaz has joined #auto
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yingying_ has joined #auto
15:40:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #auto
15:40:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-irc
15:49:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
15:50:14 [kaz]
Day2 starts here
16:08:17 [junichi-hashimoto]
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16:16:01 [AdamC]
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16:22:50 [hira]
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16:24:06 [ted]
Topic: Tuesday recap
16:24:16 [ted]
-Agreement on moving forward with VSS
16:24:33 [ted]
-Add branch for static/configuration data (Magnus F)
16:24:44 [ted]
-Add chassis information (Peter H)
16:25:18 [ted]
-Continue to use row * column * level zone model for simple location eg body.door.front.left
16:26:07 [ted]
-Adopt ISO8855 in VSS for for high precision location designation for sensors, cameras etc (Magnus F)
16:26:52 [ted]
-Add access mode to signals ([r]ead [w]rite rw) VSS provides a default and OEM can restrict further with authorization model
16:27:14 [ted]
-JS library
16:27:36 [ted]
-WG members will implement a reference library, multiple are encouraged
16:28:14 [ted]
-APIs for getting, setting, subscribing and unsubscribing to signals
16:28:33 [ted]
-Set of APIs to query Vehicle Object Model as described by VSS
16:29:13 [ted]
-if there is sufficient support the current Vehicle Information Access API could be the higher level wrapper around the service API
16:29:28 [ted]
-CarFit presentation
16:31:47 [ted]
action Kaz to survey Japanese OEM on interest in web socket and WebIDL approaches
16:31:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-19 - Survey japanese oem on interest in web socket and webidl approaches [on Kazuyuki Ashimura - due 2016-08-03].
16:32:40 [ted]
-Security and Privacy, token model with a sequence diagram from Powell
16:32:47 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #auto
16:34:32 [kaz]
present: Rudolf_Streif(JLR), Kevin_Gavigan(JLR), Adam_Crofts(JLR), Joonhyung_Kim(LG_Electronics), Wonsuk_Lee(ETRI), Song_Li(Newsky_Security), Powell_Kinney(Vinli), Peter_Winzell(Mitsubushi), Junichi_Hashimoto(KDDI), Shinjiro_Urata(ACCESS), Tatsuhiko_Hirabayashi(KDDI), Kaz_Ashimura(W3C), Ted_Guild(W3C)
16:34:40 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:34:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
16:34:51 [ted]
Topic: Security and Privacy
16:35:05 [kaz]
Chair: Rudi, Peter
16:35:08 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:35:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
16:35:12 [ted]
[Powell reviews his diagram which he'll export and add to wiki]
16:35:33 [ted]
Powell: ...VSS discovery will depend on tokens
16:35:42 [ted]
… some signals allowed without authentication
16:36:35 [ted]
… case where client asks for signal that requires authorization. it goes out to oauth server or other model to acquire token
16:37:14 [ted]
… server verifies token with auth source, server is responsible for enforcing policies
16:40:06 [ted]
… choice of token generation, storage and verification is outside of the scope of our work, oauth is just one possibility we covered
16:40:41 [ted]
Junichi: should we describe in the spec which data points require authentication
16:40:46 [ted]
Kevin: that is up to the OEM
16:41:17 [ted]
Powell: yes except perhaps the non-public VSS discovery
16:42:17 [kaz]
present+ Paul_Boyes(INRIX)
16:48:25 [ted]
Song: what happens when the token expires?
16:48:34 [ted]
Powell: you get a 403
16:50:27 [jkim]
jkim has joined #auto
16:50:42 [ted]
… I could have an active subscription with a token that expires before closing that connection
16:50:59 [ted]
[discussion on how to handle it and options available to implementors]
16:52:21 [Karen_]
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16:52:52 [ted]
Kevin: diagram is great. It would be nice to have the multiple token scenario we discussed yesterday
16:53:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
16:53:52 [ted]
ted has changed the topic to: remote connection information for day 2 of Auto F2F https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-automotive/2016Jul/0021.html
16:55:44 [ted]
Kevin: I'll work on token expiration, multiple token and async token verification scenarios
16:55:53 [AdamC]
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16:56:00 [ted]
s/Kevin: I'll work/Powell: I'll work/
17:18:38 [kaz]
junichi: show slides on security&privacy
17:18:46 [kaz]
... guideline here
17:19:18 [KevG]
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17:19:48 [AdamC]
http://w3c.github.io/automotive/vehicle_data/security/
17:20:41 [kaz]
junichi: put into several categories
17:21:15 [kaz]
... discussion on the service interface has started
17:21:20 [kaz]
... so may be delayed
17:21:26 [kaz]
... (Guideline TODO)
17:21:32 [kaz]
... Revise
17:21:47 [kaz]
... sec 2. ue case: categorization
17:22:26 [kaz]
... sec 5. vehicle specific requirements and strategies: mapping table from use cases to requrements
17:22:40 [kaz]
... all: RFC2119 conventions, workding
17:37:18 [kaz]
... need feedback from vehicle service spec viewpoint
17:38:01 [kaz]
... that should refer to the security/privacy guideline
17:38:13 [kaz]
... (Vehicle Information Service Specification)
17:38:51 [kaz]
... availability: need common/unique entry point
17:39:11 [kaz]
... wss://localhost:4343 or wss://mycar
17:39:18 [kaz]
... (Liaison&Collaboration)
17:39:45 [kaz]
... list of security-related groups
17:40:02 [kaz]
... re ones should be focused
17:40:27 [kaz]
... Web Authentication WG (working on FIDO 2.0)
17:41:02 [kaz]
... Web Application Security WG (Mixed Content)
17:41:19 [kaz]
... https for all other domains
17:41:38 [kaz]
... wss for local connection
17:42:25 [kaz]
... discussion on "secure communication with local network devices" during TPAC 2015
17:42:48 [kaz]
... to establish our security mechanism
17:43:01 [kaz]
... for TV use cases, there is no router inside
17:43:13 [kaz]
... we have to think about that
17:43:44 [kaz]
... Web of Things IG has similar discussion on hardware and security
17:44:23 [kaz]
... if you have any ideas, let me know
17:44:47 [kaz]
rudi: Web Authentication, etc., should be applied at some extent
17:45:09 [kaz]
junichi: shows th Charter of the Web Authentication WG
17:45:43 [kaz]
... 2 derivelables, Web Authentication API, Data and signature formats
17:46:00 [kaz]
... we should focus on this group
17:46:42 [kaz]
rudi: standardization work by the Web Application Security WG
17:47:00 [kaz]
junichi: they don't have token-based work
17:47:22 [kaz]
q+
17:47:36 [kaz]
... almost all their work is based on the same origin model
17:48:44 [kaz]
adam: do we want to mandate the use of token?
17:49:01 [kaz]
rudi: interoperability should be considered
17:49:17 [kaz]
powell: JWT format
17:49:44 [kaz]
... application specific
17:50:34 [kaz]
junichi: we might standardize the way of token, etc.
17:50:43 [kaz]
... but currently out of scope
17:51:01 [kaz]
... JWT would be the starting point for the future work
17:51:10 [kaz]
rudi: token-based format
17:51:22 [kaz]
... token has to contain time information
17:51:32 [kaz]
... e.g., specified by UTC
17:51:51 [kaz]
... we don't specify how the server interprets it
17:52:09 [kaz]
powell: we could specify messages for clients
17:52:36 [kaz]
junichi: we need scenario-based investigation
17:52:48 [kaz]
... where to put this kind of information?
17:53:02 [kaz]
... e.g., Powell's ladder diagram
17:53:38 [kaz]
paul: good thing of GitHub is we can use wiki and also issue tracker
17:54:00 [kaz]
rudi: we started with wiki
17:54:22 [kaz]
paul: GitHub is simple enough to use
17:54:29 [kaz]
... even just for issue tracking
17:54:43 [kaz]
rudi: tracking artifacts too
17:55:37 [kaz]
kaz: if we use README on GitHub, that is kind of wiki
17:56:04 [ted]
trackbot, status?
17:56:10 [ted]
issue-1?
17:56:10 [trackbot]
issue-1 -- For remote controle and wake-up signal, we may need some mechanism to identify the state and the mode of the car, the web runtime and the application -- raised
17:56:10 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/auto/wg/track/issues/1
17:56:22 [kaz]
rudi: what is the issue tracking mechanism for the minutes?
17:56:31 [kaz]
kaz: that's W3C Issue Tracker tied with the IRC
17:56:39 [kaz]
... and W3C email archive
17:57:30 [kaz]
ted: mentions the Web Authentication work
17:58:04 [kaz]
rudi: we've defined the flow for token handling
17:58:11 [kaz]
... Powell has generated a ladder diagram
17:58:36 [kaz]
... what does the token authorize?
17:58:55 [ted]
(if we were only handling web runtimes webauthn might be interesting but headless apps would not likely be in environment with that implemented. jwt may be more suitable)
17:59:09 [kaz]
kevin: current stateful authorization
17:59:26 [kaz]
rudi: absolute time point by UTC, etc.
18:01:01 [kaz]
kevin: authorize sustainable position
18:02:00 [kaz]
powell: is that all on security?
18:03:45 [kaz]
... we should capture all the best practices
18:03:54 [kaz]
kevin: at the moment, there is a wiki page
18:04:24 [peterw]
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18:04:53 [paul]
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18:04:55 [urata_access]
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18:04:56 [Song]
Song has joined #auto
18:05:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
18:05:40 [kaz]
i/Tuesday recap/scribenick: ted/
18:05:43 [AdamC]
https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Vehicle_Information_Service_Specification
18:06:04 [kaz]
i/show slides on/scribenick: kaz/
18:06:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
18:06:54 [ted]
i/Song: everything/scribenick: ted/
18:06:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
18:09:44 [kaz]
kevin: shows the wiki of the Vehicle Information Service Specification
18:11:58 [kaz]
... localhost vs wwwivi (as 127.0.0.1)
18:13:05 [kaz]
rudi: we're done with security and move forward?
18:13:51 [kaz]
topic: Web Socket Server
18:16:02 [kaz]
rudi: Initialisation of the Web Socket
18:18:50 [kaz]
... W3C Vehicle API Component Diagram
18:21:28 [ted]
ted: static hostname (not localhost) would be a good fallback but we can also consider dhcp service discovery http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6763.txt
18:22:01 [kaz]
song: starts to draw a diagram
18:22:03 [ted]
[unsure how to handle outside vehicle clients]
18:23:52 [ted]
[unless vehicle registers its public ip, if oem even want to permit outside connections]
18:24:41 [kaz]
paul: the blue network is the same network in the car?
18:24:43 [kaz]
song: yes
18:25:01 [kaz]
paul: do we want to have others on the same network?
18:25:32 [kaz]
kevin: internet connection is allowed only via the Agents
18:25:56 [wonsuk]
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18:28:47 [kaz]
rudi: the vehicle itself has some IP address
18:31:12 [kaz]
paul: this diagram (=W3C Vehicle API Component Diagram) captures the issue
18:32:01 [kaz]
rudi: in the car we need to use some local name resolution mechanism
18:33:11 [kaz]
kevin: Browser(Web page) can't be directly connected to the server on the vehicle
18:34:29 [kaz]
paul: what do we need to add to this diagram (=W3C Vehicle API Component Diagram)?
18:35:24 [ted]
[ https://www.websocket.org/aboutwebsocket.html suggest using existing traditional https port 443 for wss and upgrade connection instead of trying to register a port with IANA]
18:36:29 [kaz]
ted: switch over to websocket using the same port
18:45:13 [kaz]
song: will redraw the diagram
18:46:36 [kaz]
kevin: how do we differentiate our own WebSocket connection from general ones?
18:48:04 [kaz]
adam: adds TODO update path to route multiple sockets through the same server
18:48:47 [kaz]
ted: you can remove the port number (4343) from the wss URL
18:49:20 [kaz]
adam: removes "4343" and make the URL "wss://wwwivi"
18:49:39 [kaz]
... by using wss, the port will default to 443
18:49:54 [PowellKinney]
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18:49:57 [PowellKinney]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebSockets_API/Writing_WebSocket_servers#Subprotocols
18:50:50 [PowellKinney]
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6455#section-11.5
18:54:29 [kaz]
s/URL/URI/
18:54:30 [kaz]
s/URL/URI/
18:55:05 [kaz]
rudi: how to handle the WS sub protocol?
18:55:21 [kaz]
powerll: initial web socket handshake
19:00:25 [Paul]
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19:00:36 [Paul]
http://www.iana.org/assignments/websocket/websocket.xhtml
19:00:49 [kaz]
adam: sub protocol name will always be "VISS" and with a version number suffix, e.g. "VISS1.0"
19:02:32 [PowellKinney]
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7936
19:13:02 [kaz]
peter: why do we need restful websocket?
19:13:27 [junichi-hashimoto]
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19:14:46 [kaz]
rudi: the Internet side service could be provided by REST-based cloud service
19:17:45 [kaz]
paul: what about performance?
19:18:47 [kaz]
rudi: RESTful Web services are out of scope for the first revision of this specification
19:19:12 [kaz]
... but could be considered for addition in a later version
19:19:26 [Paul]
http://blog.arungupta.me/rest-vs-websocket-comparison-benchmarks/
19:20:15 [kaz]
adam: TODO remove and/or websockets and RESTful Web services elsewhere in the document.
19:22:39 [kaz]
[ Paul, I also compared the benchmark between REST and WS 3-4 years ago :) ]
19:25:20 [kaz]
rudi: "Message Structure" after lunch
19:25:24 [kaz]
[ lunch ]
19:25:30 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:25:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
22:00:00 [ted]
scribenick: ted
22:03:46 [kaz]
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22:05:22 [jkim_]
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22:06:05 [kaz]
topic: OSTC1 Tour
22:06:11 [kaz]
topic: OCF Update
22:06:20 [kaz]
present+ Sanjeev_Ba
22:06:38 [kaz]
sb: (Updates since April F2F)
22:07:12 [ted]
Sanjeev: I have sent a couple emails and a pull request
22:07:34 [kaz]
i/Sanjeev:/scribenick: ted/
22:07:40 [ted]
… contributing version of RVI library
22:07:42 [kaz]
s/sb: (Updates since April F2F)//
22:08:06 [ted]
… I had to initiate an automotive project within OCF
22:08:36 [ted]
… we are showcasing what we have done to OCF
22:08:49 [ted]
… we organized a meeting during the OCF F2F
22:09:40 [ted]
… we had a few months of reviews and feedback. we are expecting approval today
22:11:18 [ted]
… we delivered three use cases to OCF
22:12:17 [ted]
… mapping VSS to OCF
22:12:38 [ted]
… we are using web linking (rfc 6690, 5988)
22:13:36 [ted]
s/mapping VSS to OCF/mapping VSS branches to to OCF resource types/
22:14:09 [ted]
… we had to create OCF resource type definitions for vss
22:14:56 [ted]
… we have issues trying to differentiate between eg and cabin and body light
22:15:34 [ted]
… we are setting up liaisons with W3C, Genivi, OM Auto (October 2016)
22:16:32 [ted]
… our eventual goal is to have a joint interop demo
22:19:03 [ted]
Kaz: there are some more demo opportunities including at TPAC in Lisbon
22:19:13 [ted]
… are you planning on being there?
22:19:18 [ted]
Sanjeev: probably not
22:20:48 [wonsuk]
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22:22:04 [AdamC]
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22:24:55 [ted]
Wonsuk: as you know we're going web socket. OCF is going with @@protocol
22:25:09 [ted]
… it would be good to coordinate these standards
22:25:41 [ted]
Sanjeev: open to that idea and want to figure out the best way to bridge them
22:26:16 [ted]
Rudi: what are the current thoughts on the interop demo?
22:27:24 [ted]
Sanjeev: I can try to coordinate with my colleagues and it will be dependent on the progress we make in the next four month
22:27:31 [AdamC]
@ted CoAP I believe
22:27:53 [ted]
s/@@protocol/CoAP/
22:28:26 [ted]
Rudi asks about the VSS YAML to OCF RAML tool
22:28:55 [ted]
… wonder how we can coordinate better with Iotivity
22:29:19 [ted]
… Powell is interested in exposing our web socket through Iotivity
22:29:52 [ted]
Powell: web socket system running on IVI could communicate to OCF server somewhere else in the world
22:31:00 [ted]
Sanjeev: we need to find the right balance on amount of data we're sending
22:36:03 [ted]
[discussion on Genivi AMM venue for a possible demo]
22:37:06 [ted]
Ted: Steve Crumb asked me by email today if we want to collocate and meet at their AMM in Burlingame
22:37:12 [ted]
Rudi: Let's decide here and now
22:37:27 [ted]
Paul: several of us will already be there and these make the most sense
22:38:05 [ted]
Rudi: why don't you respond to Steve that we will be there and ideally be presenting on progress
22:39:15 [ted]
Paul: individual schedules around these meetings vary so we should settle on specific F2F dates
22:43:06 [ted]
Sanjeev: I'm inclined to host this under Iotivity repo
22:43:14 [ted]
Rudi: any objection from others?
22:43:32 [ted]
Sanjeev: some parts can make sense under W3C repo
22:45:01 [ted]
Ted: nice to have bits in both places to get interest from both sides, following logical lines of what belongs where but also may cause some confusion to have it split
22:45:13 [ted]
Sanjeev: I'll reflect and discuss that more here
22:45:44 [ted]
Rudi: we'll be driving the specification forward and coordinate with you on VSS+socket server to OCF
22:49:24 [ted]
Topic: HERE
22:49:47 [ted]
@@uri
22:50:53 [ted]
Paul: we had a couple HERE engineers join us at our F2F in Seattle last year
22:51:09 [ted]
… there was some back and forth on this proposal after
22:53:44 [ted]
s|@@uri|https://company.here.com/automotive/new-innovations/sensor-ingestion/|
22:54:28 [ted]
Rudi: basically it is about sending data off to the cloud
22:54:40 [ted]
Paul: who is using this?
22:55:23 [ted]
… this is interesting but not an open environment
22:55:50 [ted]
Kevin: this is useful for ADAS research etc and another silo comparable to Google
22:57:16 [ted]
Rudi: this relates to what we are doing to some extent, question is what do we do?
22:57:29 [hira]
hira has joined #auto
22:58:38 [ted]
Ted: anyone can use what we are working on for their business needs. we haven't talked to them in awhile and perhaps should let them know what we are up to
23:01:32 [ted]
Kevin provides link to article where MS and Amazon are looking to become minority stake holders in HERE (previously Nokia and bought by German OEM consortium)
23:02:36 [ted]
Paul: 16 car companies were involved in HERE effort
23:02:53 [ted]
… the question is why did they participate in this and not on our side?
23:05:22 [ted]
Ted: W3C is a proponent of open data but reality is people build silos. they may be willing to work with us to bridge what we are working on for aggregating and anonymizing data for intake
23:05:32 [ted]
… that would be useful for others
23:05:56 [ted]
Kevin: as a courtesty maybe we should reopen communication
23:06:25 [ted]
Paul: conversation last year just fizzled out
23:06:42 [ted]
… it would be great to standardize the server side ingestion as well
23:07:03 [ted]
… it shouldn't be a big deal to come up with that from our platform
23:08:16 [ted]
Hira: they say on their site intent to make this an open standard
23:08:57 [hira]
It is announced ERTICO has agreed to evolve the design into a standardized interface specification for broad use across the automotive industry and is now the directing organisation of the SENSORIS forum. (http://360.here.com/2016/06/28/here-standard-for-shared-car-data-wins-pan-european-backing/)
23:09:15 [ted]
Rudi: why don't we reopen dialogue with them?
23:09:33 [ted]
Paul: sure, I'll start a thread back up
23:10:07 [ted]
s/Hira: they say/Hira: ERTICO says/
23:11:12 [ted]
Topic: ITU
23:12:29 [ted]
Kaz: on the 4th and 5th of July Hira and I joined ITU event on future of connected vehicles
23:12:52 [ted]
… I gave a presentation on our automotive standardization work
23:16:00 [ted]
[presenting agenda for second day]
23:18:28 [ted]
Kaz: their Vehicle Gateway Proxy is about connecting cloud services and vehicles
23:18:47 [ted]
… I suggest we read their documents and provide feedback
23:21:22 [ted]
[VGP is V2X - sending information between vehicles, cloud, phones, signs, tolls etc]
23:22:07 [ted]
Rudi: wonder how much this relates to us and whether we need to engage them
23:22:20 [ted]
… probably worth keeping it on our observation list
23:24:20 [ted]
Kaz: I will be going to a workshop being organized by IEEE
23:25:21 [ted]
s/workshop being/workshop on IoT and automotive being/
23:25:53 [ted]
… I'll report back on that workshop. one of their focuses is on security aspects
23:26:11 [ted]
Rudi: Genivi is rechartering their security work and looking to liaison
23:26:55 [ted]
Junichi: Genivi is looking at SOTA more
23:27:29 [ted]
Rudi: also worth following but doesn't concern what we are doing directly from what I see
23:28:07 [ted]
… thank you Kaz, please continue to follow this and keep us posted
23:28:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html ted
23:28:59 [kaz]
[ afternoon break ]
23:29:12 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
23:29:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/27-auto-minutes.html kaz
23:57:04 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
23:57:43 [kaz]
topic: Amendment of the WG Charter
23:58:03 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2014/automotive/charter current charter
23:58:17 [kaz]
paul: timeline and deliverables