01:12:15 RRSAgent has joined #wot 01:12:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-wot-irc 01:12:42 dsr has joined #wot 01:12:53 Meeting: WoT IG f2f meeting in Beijing - Day 1 01:12:57 present+ 01:13:17 topic: Welcome and IG Objectives/Goals of the meeting 01:13:33 joerg: starts introduction on the IG work 01:13:46 ... (WoT IG Roadmap (1/2) 01:13:52 s/2)/2))/ 01:14:27 taki has joined #wot 01:14:29 katsu has joined #wot 01:14:39 masato has joined #wot 01:15:17 ... discussion on Use Cases; atomic use case to bridge application domains 01:16:17 ... three building blocks: Script API/protocol mapping, Discovery, TD and Security/Privacy 01:17:30 ryuichi has joined #wot 01:17:39 ... meetings in Sunnyvale, Sapporo, Nice and Montreal 01:18:06 ... generating a document, "Current Practice" 01:18:19 ... compilation of demo experience 01:18:40 ... and in parallel working on the WoT Architecture document 01:19:13 ... (WoT IG Roadmap (2/2)) 01:19:34 ... we're about to prepare for a Working Group 01:19:44 ... identifying particular work items for the WG 01:19:53 ... also generating a draft Charter for the WG 01:20:24 ktoumura has joined #wot 01:20:35 ... we'll update the current practice document 01:20:54 ... we have some more topics 01:21:13 ... discussion on the concrete scenario 01:21:48 ... that is a snapshot of the agenda for this meeting 01:21:51 yingying has joined #wot 01:22:10 ... we're preparing the release of the IG deliverable documents 01:22:38 ... also preparing for the WG expecting to start it by the end of the year 01:23:15 ... identified how the IG will work for further exploration of new WoT building blocks 01:23:38 ... comments or questions? 01:23:47 (none) 01:24:06 joerg: another slide 01:24:09 ... (WoT IG Work in Iterations?) 01:25:02 ... Use Cases/Requirements -> Identify WoT Building Blocks -> Tech Landscape -> Architecture and Current Practice -> External Communication & Collaboration 01:25:18 mkovatsc has joined #wot 01:25:20 ... particular discussion on the next steps 01:25:38 s/next steps/concrete scenarios/ 01:25:51 ... iterating documents 01:26:07 ... on the right side, we have more practical things 01:26:15 ... demos -> PlugFest 01:26:28 ... we'll have our next meeting in Lisbon during TPAC 2016 01:27:36 @@@: resource on the documents? 01:27:41 taki1 has joined #wot 01:27:50 yingying_ has joined #wot 01:28:06 joerg: on the group wiki 01:28:42 jhund has joined #wot 01:28:53 kajimoto has joined #wot 01:29:09 michael has joined #wot 01:29:17 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_Page WoT IG wiki 01:29:42 joerg: please see "Ongoing work documents" section 01:29:56 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_Page#Ongoing_work_documents Ongoing work documents section 01:30:29 joerg: going through the agenda 01:30:42 taki2 has joined #wot 01:30:43 olivexu has joined #wot 01:30:50 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_July_2016,_China,_Beijing#Wednesday.2C_13th_of_July.2C_WoT_IG_Meeting Beijing f2f agenda wiki 01:31:48 joerg: 9:30 Breakout Introductions: Protocol Bindings, UC/Req, Type Systems, Resource Parameters, TD lifecycle, Scripting API 01:32:10 ... after coffee break, we'll have 2nd breakouts 01:32:15 ... then lunch 01:32:27 ... after lunch breakouts again 01:32:32 maomao has joined #wot 01:32:42 ... and afternoon break 01:32:42 kaz-san, the lady who asks on the documents of WoT IG is Xuequin Jia from China Unicom 01:32:59 s/@@@/Xuequin/ 01:33:14 joerg: and breakouts 01:33:26 ... goes through Thursday 01:33:40 ... we'll have a lot of breakout sessions 01:33:55 ... below the agenda, there is "Input/Comments on the agenda" 01:34:20 ... how we deal with these proposals 01:34:47 kinoshita has joined #wot 01:34:51 rrsagent, make log public 01:34:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:34:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-wot-minutes.html kaz 01:35:20 joerg: discussion on "call for implementation" results 01:35:35 ... follow up on IoT Open System Architecture discussion 01:36:24 ... Kepeng Li: Contribution to WoT Security & Privacy 01:36:51 (Kepeng is not here at the moment) 01:37:29 joerg: do we have further contributions? 01:38:44 xuequin: China Unicom: information exchange on IoT industry 2020 01:39:29 s/on IoT industry 2020/on common aspects related to TD/ 01:39:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:39:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-wot-minutes.html kaz 01:40:21 joerg: right now we have TD-related breakout sessions, type systems and lifecycle 01:40:45 dsr: how long do we need for each breakout? 01:41:14 sebastian: resource parameters wouldn't take long 01:41:54 matthias: we'll have quick pitches during the breakout introduction 01:42:30 xuequin: would provide brief description 01:42:55 joerg: everybody can provide quick pitch 01:43:31 ... we also have follow-up discussion on the IoT Open Architecture 01:43:52 dsr: yesterday's panel session was a good starting point 01:44:18 s/xuequin/xueqin/g 01:44:46 we could make further progress in a smaller group 01:45:05 ... and we could make further progress in a smaller group 01:45:13 kaz: maybe their work is related to TD lifecycle as well 01:46:12 matthias: detailed dialogues by a smaller group would be better 01:46:22 +1 01:47:53 joerg: coming back to the breakout introductions 01:48:20 ... would like to have brief self introductions 01:48:29 ... name, affiliation and background 01:48:42 ... starting with myself 01:49:09 (everybody introduces him/her-self) 02:06:26 joerg: take a look at our documents 02:06:37 ... joint meetings with the W3C Automotive group 02:06:46 ... also IRTF T2T group 02:07:01 taki has joined #wot 02:07:04 ... welcome for security/privacy discussion 02:07:17 ... second point is implementations by open source projects 02:07:28 ... testing against our own implementations 02:07:54 ... we'll discuss our "call for implementations" tomorrow 02:08:09 ... now would like to start the breakout introductions 02:08:19 ... would skip protocol bindings for the moment 02:08:24 topic: Breakout Introductions 02:09:29 s/... would skip protocol bindings for the moment// 02:09:39 matthias: Explicit Protocol Bindings 02:10:07 ... working on this after the Montreal meeting 02:10:36 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/master/proposals/explicit-bindings/binding-coap.md 02:11:26 i|https|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/explicit-bindings| 02:11:47 matthias: explains the CoAP binding 02:11:57 ... who is interested? 02:12:26 ... 8 people raise their hands 02:13:52 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/subscriptions 02:13:59 johannes: proposal on resourceful handling of subscriptions for REST (for Michael Koster) 02:14:22 ... take a look at this during the breakout 02:15:05 ... which solution would fit which issue 02:15:24 ... what problems would be addressed 02:15:32 ... who is interested? 02:15:50 ... 10 people raise their hands 02:16:22 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/type-system 02:16:54 taki: quick introduction 02:17:04 ... (What is Type System?) 02:17:29 ... (Type System in Human Communication) 02:17:47 ... what kind of data you send to the counter part 02:17:57 ... Date, Time, Number of people, Name, etc. 02:18:06 ... (Type System in WoT) 02:18:22 ... Semantics: Meaning, Intention, Purpose 02:18:34 ... Type System: Abstract Type Definition 02:18:40 ... Data Representation 02:18:54 ... (Abstract Type Definition) 02:19:07 ... Abstract Type Definition using JSON Schema 02:19:51 ... representation binding with possible data formats: JSON, XML, EXI, etc. 02:19:59 ... (Example 1 - Simple Data) 02:20:17 taki1 has joined #wot 02:20:27 ... Type definition -> JSON/XML binding 02:20:51 ... (Example 2 - Structured Data - Object) 02:20:57 ... ID and name 02:21:07 ... (Example 3 - Structured Data - Array) 02:21:17 ... (Type System Breakout Topics) 02:21:44 ... comments on incorporating JSON Schema as a whole into the spec is too much 02:22:07 ... but applications need to have type system anyway 02:22:15 ... how to cooperate with deviation? 02:22:50 ... semantic annotation by type system or external mechanism? 02:23:48 joerg: who is interested? 02:23:59 ... 9 raised their hands 02:24:12 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/resource-parameters 02:24:18 sebastian: next topic addresses Thing Description 02:24:41 ... (Resource Parameters) 02:24:46 ... (Problem Statement) 02:25:05 ... defining data model 02:25:42 ... who is interested? 02:26:25 yongjing: not sure about the point 02:27:00 sebastian: resource description using query parameters 02:27:06 ... or payload data 02:28:25 ... query parameters are popularly used today 02:29:08 yongjing: could join the discussion 02:29:19 taki has joined #wot 02:29:44 michael_ has joined #wot 02:30:14 sebastian: who is interested? 02:30:22 ... 7 raised their hands 02:30:36 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/td-lifecycle 02:30:40 matthias: TD Lifecycle 02:30:57 ... (Thing Description Lifecycle) 02:31:39 ... Thing Description will grow and change over the lifetime of the "Thing" 02:31:56 ... how to keep the information updated? 02:32:40 ... who is interested? 02:32:43 ... 16 raised 02:32:55 joerg: the last one is scripting API 02:32:57 ->https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/master/proposals/restructured-scripting-api 02:33:23 johannes: Breakout proposal: Scripting API 02:33:35 ... (Scripting API) 02:34:03 ... portable script which could be transfered from WoT Servient A to another WoT Servient B 02:34:13 ... (ConsumedThing) 02:34:18 ... (ExposedThing) 02:34:32 ... (Script Example (Client API)) 02:35:25 ... (Plugfest Findings / Topics) 02:35:34 ... how to do local discovery, etc. 02:35:45 ... need some way to access TD 02:35:50 s/, etc.// 02:36:10 ... extend the spec with optional parts/hints for runtime implementers 02:36:40 ... event handling and decorator 02:36:51 ... some more points during the breakout session 02:37:16 ... who is interested? 02:37:20 ... 13 raised 02:37:42 joerg: we should ask Chine Unicom for short introduction 02:37:49 s/for/as well for/ 02:37:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:37:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-wot-minutes.html kaz 02:39:12 xueqin: Sharing China Unicom's Views on things desciption in IoT 02:39:22 ... (Background) 02:39:46 ... would like to share our views on things description 02:40:13 ... ITU-T SG20 work item Y.IoT-things-description-reqts 02:40:27 yiyi has joined #wot 02:40:38 ... initiated by China Unicom, CETC, China mobile, etc. 02:40:51 ... (Overview of things description in IoT) 02:41:19 Yongjing has joined #wot 02:41:51 ... (diagram) 02:42:28 ... mapping between Physical Thing ad object using the Things description 02:42:39 s/ad/and/ 02:43:14 ... (Relationship between things description, information model and description language) 02:43:22 ... need to clarify the concept 02:43:43 ... Things description is composed by the information model 02:44:00 s/model/model and the description language/ 02:44:29 ying_ying has joined #wot 02:44:40 ... (Things description methodologies in IoT) 02:44:56 ... Semantics-based things description 02:45:22 ... uses semantic description language like RDF 02:46:05 ... relatively heavy and not popular for light-weight devices 02:46:15 ... Abstraction-based things description 02:46:29 ... JSON and XML are popular 02:46:52 ... simpler and lighter, so widely used 02:47:06 ... but weakness on the aspects of interoperability 02:47:19 ... Hybrid things description 02:47:35 ... special type of abstraction-based approach 02:49:14 ... interested in working here 02:50:05 sebastian: tx! 02:50:23 q+ 02:50:35 ... we should organize a session to synchronize with each other 02:51:08 ... maybe query parameter topic would not take long 02:51:17 dsr: tx to introduce this work 02:52:06 ... would like to explore the heavy approach and the hybrid approach 02:52:19 q+ 02:52:21 ack d 02:52:32 darko: very interesting 02:52:45 ... we're thinking about similar things 02:53:06 ... schema org, domain specific information 02:53:12 ... discoverability, etc. 02:53:40 Dave: I have initiated a joint white paper across many organization on semantic interoperability, and see a great deal of interest in lightweight approaches and the need for agile processes for standardizing vocabularies and models 02:54:01 Dave: I look forward to fruitful discussions to progress this further 02:54:06 q= 02:54:08 q- 02:54:14 s/q=// 02:54:47 sebastian: I'd like to propose we talk about query parameter because it would not take much time 02:54:55 q+ 02:55:25 ack k 02:55:45 kaz: many people are interested in many topics 02:55:57 ... do we really want to have these sessions as breakouts? 02:56:04 joerg: good question 02:56:07 ... need update on the agenda 02:56:22 ... shows the updated agenda on the screen 02:57:36 s/need update/need some more adjustment/ 02:57:37 yiyichen has joined #wot 02:58:32 (some discussion on the agenda building) 03:00:29 (moving TD contribution by China Unicom after the TD Lifecycle session) 03:00:59 joerg: how to identify the breakout rooms? 03:01:33 kaz: we can call this room the Big Room and another room the Small Room (or "Not so Big Room") 03:01:58 joerg: adds the room assignment (with "Not so Big Room") 03:02:15 [ 15-min break ] 03:02:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:02:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/13-wot-minutes.html kaz 03:10:12 ysj has joined #wot 03:24:41 dsr has joined #wot 03:29:58 topic: TD Lifecycle 03:30:15 matthias: shows example TD 03:30:25 ... how the document should look like 03:30:54 ... at the time of design, there are properties already 03:31:40 ... name, uris, encodings 03:31:59 ... interaction properties which are rather stable 03:32:15 s/stable/stable: name, valueType, writable, hrefs 03:32:52 ... remember that Panasonic had a question on the time of manufacturing, product sold, etc. 03:33:15 kazuo: shows his slides 03:33:25 ... (Things Description Template Concept) 03:33:48 ... instances depending the owners and locations 03:34:04 scribenick: dsr 03:34:41 Kazuo presents a slide for thing description template concept 03:35:13 ryuichi has joined #wot 03:35:14 Layers with CE category, subcategory and product catalog name 03:35:38 plus particular instances of these templates as actual devices 03:36:05 It is kind of like an inheritance mechanism 03:37:28 Each kind of product has its unique id, e.g. Panasonic SX226 03:38:35 When you install a device, you can assign a human meaningful name and the platform can assign a machine id 03:39:48 Matthias: this involves a means to copy and extend a thing description 03:40:49 Darko: we can define an ontology for such templates and how they relate to lifecycle 03:41:08 q+ to ask about produced year/month/date and serial number 03:41:13 It is unclear to me how to deal with what you call the extended context 03:41:24 q+ 03:41:53 Matthias: this import of vocabularies underscore the lifecycle 03:43:04 Kazuo: we have many product types, and manufacturer should provide a template for each product 03:43:13 q+ to ask about "how to dispose" 03:44:02 yingying has joined #wot 03:44:47 q+ to ask about "modification/repair" 03:44:55 Matthias: I see a need for tooling, one way is to request a description from the device, another is to request it from outside 03:46:57 We need to do more work on domain models 03:47:07 ack k 03:47:07 kaz, you wanted to ask about produced year/month/date and serial number and to ask about "how to dispose" and to ask about "modification/repair" 03:47:40 Kaz: I wanted to ask about produced year/month/date and serial number and to ask about "how to dispose" and to ask about "modification/repair" 03:47:42 DarkoAnicic has joined #wot 03:47:53 jhund has joined #wot 03:47:57 present+ DarkoAnicic 03:48:01 q+ 03:48:05 This info is often on the warranty sheet 03:48:26 q+ 03:48:26 we need to consider the end of life 03:49:10 ack dsr 03:49:22 ack dsr 03:51:07 yingying_ has joined #wot 03:51:20 joerg has joined #wot 03:51:34 Dave: In my work I have come across three approaches: a) device provides TD directly, b) device is queried by gateway enabling gateway to generate TD, and c) gateway uses device ID to get TD from cloud and combine with local communications metadata for the specific device. 03:53:04 Some discussion around scripts that when installed either extend a TD or generate a new one 03:54:10 sebastian has joined #wot 03:54:29 q? 03:54:39 ack jh 03:55:01 Johannes: it is a good idea to support modular TDs with inheritance 03:55:03 q+ 03:55:32 q? 03:55:33 q+ 03:55:41 q+ 03:56:14 nimura has joined #wot 03:56:23 inheritance can make things complicated … 03:56:48 ack ta 03:57:03 Taki: we can use ontologies for this 03:57:26 taki1 has joined #wot 03:57:50 and import at run-time 03:58:12 q? 03:58:28 Darko explains his understanding 03:58:54 ack dsr 04:00:12 mao has joined #WoT 04:01:00 Mingyu has joined #wot 04:01:04 yingying has joined #wot 04:01:10 Dave: we need to support lightweight ontologies for semantic models and constraints, and to make these into easy to process descriptions for WoT devices. Note that the RDF open world model has implications, e.g. complicating overriding of defaults 04:01:26 Matthias does a recap 04:01:31 ack seb 04:02:35 Sebastian: what can we standardise here? 04:02:38 q+ 04:02:47 ktoumura has joined #wot 04:02:54 Matthias: we need to drive this from the use cases 04:03:09 ack da 04:03:33 Darko: we can provide best practice based on different lifecycle use cases 04:03:53 one is adding a new script and changing a TD at run time 04:04:21 ryuichi has joined #wot 04:05:01 we should identify lifecyle phases and look at best practices 04:05:49 Matthias: we need to scale to handle industry requirements on a large scale 04:06:01 q? 04:06:17 q+ yongjing 04:08:10 ack dsr 04:08:30 Dave: some interesting timing issues when starting a thing that depends on other things 04:08:46 I solved this in my NodeJS project last year 04:09:57 Matthias starts to collect some lifecycle phases: design time, run time, manufacturing, delivering, commissioning 04:10:38 Dave: at run time both the software and the hardware may change (e.g. when a new device is plugged in that extends an existing one) 04:10:42 q+ 04:11:45 ack y 04:12:33 Yongying: unclear about binding vs run-time 04:12:40 q+ 04:12:52 Matthias: binding needs to be complete before things can interact 04:13:51 q? 04:14:17 Yonying: design time changes may only be internal to a company 04:14:38 s/Yonying:/Yongjing:/ 04:14:44 s/Yonying:/Yongjing:/ 04:14:56 s/Yongying:/Yongjing:/ 04:14:57 Dave: software depending on a thing will need to be aware of versioning where the kinds of things they depend upon evolve over time 04:15:41 q? 04:15:59 Yongjing: we can look at existing work on templating 04:16:11 Matthias: please send a point to the mailing list 04:16:22 q+ to mention there are several levels here, device/service level and application level 04:16:26 ack taki 04:17:27 Taki: vendors may offer two versions of TD, e.g. one for free use, and another with an extended set of features for paying customers 04:17:47 ack kaz 04:17:47 kaz, you wanted to mention there are several levels here, device/service level and application level 04:18:29 Kaz talks about service lifecyle 04:18:32 q+ 04:19:11 Frank: we need updates as part of the lifecyle 04:20:04 Dave: we need to discuss how this relates to the APIs, e.g. events signalling changes 04:20:27 Joerg: we should look at changes such as change of owner and change of service provider 04:20:47 It would be helpful to collect some examples of use cases to guide discussion 04:21:09 s|talks about service lifecycle|mentions there are several different levels of lifecycle here, e.g., device/service level and application/session level. so this list includes smaller loop (e.g., Thing2Thing binding and Operation/Runtime) in the bigger loop| 04:21:57 Joerg: we should include a use case for simulation 04:22:51 and more generally a use case for each lifecycle topic 04:22:57 q? 04:23:04 ack D 04:23:14 Darko: changes such as new firmware updates 04:23:45 and software updates 04:24:43 Kazuo volunteers to maintain a document on lifecyle 04:26:10 Yongjing has joined #wot 04:26:31 Home Gateway Initiative Smart Device Template. Available at https://github.com/Homegateway/SmartDeviceTemplate/tree/7c890b69d9764e341ef1768c5a0e7d53a47cff5c. 04:26:59 Some state of the art for your reference 04:28:11 Discussion around ITU-T’s work in this area and its relevance to the web of things for thing descriptions 04:28:41 We can make use of the liaison to avoid conflicts and misunderstandings 04:28:54 HGI SDT3.0 defines modularized way to describe devices, it allows inheritance of device types and module classes as well. 04:29:03 Yohsumi has joined #wot 04:29:18 ITU-T can focus on high level concepts and terms, while W3C focuses on more technical treatment 04:29:26 oneM2M adopts HGI SDT3.0 for home appliance information modeling 04:29:57 ktoumura has joined #wot 04:30:26 Zhenyu has joined #wot 04:30:59 This would encourage Chinese companies to join the W3C actitivities 04:31:14 s/actitivities/activities/ 04:31:25 q+ 04:32:53 mkovatsc has joined #wot 04:32:56 Dave: we have had some liaison with ITU-T, but we need people to join the W3C groups to help drive the liaisons as the W3C staff are too few to do this all themselves 04:33:01 ack kaz 04:33:32 Kaz: we can collaborate on common use cases and vocabularies, how would you like to proceed? 04:34:31