14:35:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:35:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-irc
14:35:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:35:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:35:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:35:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:35:13 <trackbot> Date: 07 July 2016
14:35:17 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
14:35:17 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:35:28 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:35:28 <Zakim> Present: allanj, Laura, Scott, AWK
14:35:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot
14:35:54 <allanj> zakim, clear present
14:35:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clear present', allanj
14:36:05 <allanj> present -AWK
14:36:15 <allanj> present- AWK
14:36:28 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:36:28 <Zakim> Present: allanj, Laura, Scott
14:36:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot
14:36:32 <shawn> present:
14:37:15 <allanj> Agenda+ Hyphenation https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/8
14:37:16 <allanj> Agenda+ Selectable https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/9
14:38:23 <allanj> Agenda+ 200% vs 1100% https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/5
14:43:05 <allanj> regrets: AWK
14:53:08 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:53:15 <allanj> present+
14:53:22 <allanj> present+ John
14:53:37 <allanj> present+ Shawn
15:00:56 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:04:27 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
15:06:03 <allanj> present+ Scott
15:06:22 <Wayne> scribe: Wayne
15:06:34 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:06:52 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:06:59 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:07:03 <Wayne> zakim, open item 1
15:07:03 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Hyphenation https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/8" taken up [from allanj]
15:07:36 <laura> present+ Laura
15:08:10 <JohnRochford> Correct URL = https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/8
15:08:19 <allanj> proposed: A mechanism is available for users to turn hyphenation on or off.
15:11:50 <shawn> zakim, who is on the call?
15:11:50 <Zakim> Present: allanj, John, Shawn, Wayne, Scott, JohnRochford, Laura
15:12:15 <allanj> wayne: at large zoom, hyphen is an extra character
15:13:04 <allanj> john: hyphen is necessary to let folks know the word continues
15:13:23 <shawn> Present: allanj, Shawn, Wayne, Scott, JohnRochford, Laura
15:13:44 <allanj> jim: ok with this wording
15:14:37 <JohnRochford> +1 to wording
15:14:44 <allanj> +1 to wording
15:14:52 <Wayne> RESOLUTION: Accept the wording for hyphenation.
15:15:14 <Wayne> zakim, open next item
15:15:14 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Selectable https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/9" taken up [from allanj]
15:15:24 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:15:36 <allanj> proposed:
15:15:43 <allanj> For the visual presentation of blocks of text, a mechanism is available to achieve the following:
15:15:45 <allanj>     line spacing can be selected by the user
15:15:46 <allanj>     word spacing can be selected by the user
15:15:48 <allanj>     letter spacing can be selected by the user
15:15:48 <JohnRochford> Correct URL = https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/9
15:15:49 <allanj>     text justification can be selected by the user
15:15:51 <allanj>     margins (blank space) and borders (including color, width, and style) can be selected by the user
15:16:17 <ScottM_> ScottM_ has joined #lvtf
15:16:28 <allanj>    paragraph spacing can be selected by the user
15:20:14 <allanj> shawn: are all a same level?, ordering?, how specific do we need to get?
15:20:28 <shawn> ... e.g. much more specific in UAAG
15:21:49 <allanj> Jim: all at same level?
15:21:59 <JohnRochford> q+
15:22:27 <allanj> wayne: depends on visual condition, some needs each of these
15:23:03 <allanj> shawn: is this a level A or AA  or AAA for everybody
15:23:36 <Wayne> Shawn: Should we consider level. Is this one equal uint.
15:23:50 <allanj> john: justification is important for cognitive issues.
15:24:23 <allanj> john: justification should not be AAA should be AA
15:24:30 <Wayne> John: Text Justification is necessary for cognitive and lv
15:25:15 <ScottM> AAA is universally ignored
15:25:30 <allanj> wayne: don't see any at AAA,
15:26:10 <allanj> ... missing any one is a show stopper for someone.
15:26:16 <shawn> Chair: Jim
15:27:01 <Wayne> John: Text Justification should be Level A because of the number of people influenced
15:27:47 <Wayne> John: anything added to AAA is kiss of death.
15:28:40 <allanj> WCAG 2.1 Success Criteria https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria
15:28:51 <laura> WCAG 2.1 Success Criteria: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria
15:29:09 <Wayne> AllenJ: There is difficult if implementation.
15:30:46 <JohnRochford> My vote: text simplification = A, rest = AA
15:30:56 <ScottM_> ScottM_ has joined #lvtf
15:31:16 <JohnRochford> correction: justification, not simplification
15:32:28 <allanj> shawn: paragraph spacing might be AAA, really useful usability wise.
15:32:47 <allanj> ja: coga may have issues with para spacing
15:32:53 <Wayne> Shawn: Paragraph spacing may be Level AAA
15:33:14 <allanj> shawn: you don't have to know where para ends to be able to read.
15:33:32 <Wayne> Sharron: You don't have to see paragraphs diffeences?
15:33:44 <Wayne> Note: Shwn is devils advocate.
15:34:04 <allanj> s/Shwn/Shawn
15:34:30 <allanj> s/Sharron/Shawn
15:35:10 <Wayne> Scott: Take a double approach: Need to style consistently AA, To get more specific AAA
15:36:28 <allanj> Jim: any objection to keeping all together.
15:36:38 <Wayne> John: Objects to keeping them together. Justification must A. The rest can be AA.
15:37:05 <Wayne> Scott also objects.
15:37:53 <allanj> wayne: group spacing together?
15:38:23 <JohnRochford> +1 to group spacing together
15:38:44 <allanj> jim: letter, word, line, paragraph
15:39:20 <JohnRochford> present- john
15:40:24 <allanj> 1 - justification, 2 - spacing letter, word, line, para, 3 margins
15:40:43 <JohnRochford> +1
15:42:02 <Wayne> John: Justification should be A, the rest should be at least AA.
15:42:13 <allanj> action: Jim create 3 SCs, justification, spacing (letter, word, line, para), margins
15:42:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create 3 scs, justification, spacing (letter, word, line, para), margins [on Jim Allan - due 2016-07-14].
15:42:47 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
15:43:30 <allanj> wayne: make all A, then wait for push back.
15:44:01 <allanj> shawn: or we are seen as not taking reality into account, and seen as not serious.
15:46:13 <allanj> shawn: low vision issue or coga issue. justification is not more important than spacing for LV
15:46:23 <allanj> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html COGA SCs
15:47:30 <allanj> COGA proposes WCAG 1.4.8 should not be AAA (included justification)
15:47:52 <allanj> shawn: justification does not level A
15:48:33 <allanj> s/justification does not level A/justification is not level A
15:49:17 <allanj> john: rivers of white is big issue. does think it prevents comprehension.
15:49:27 <Wayne> John: I believe that rivers of white prevent comprehension.
15:51:24 <Wayne> Shawn: Would slow comprehension.
15:51:41 <allanj> shawn: data on justification?
15:51:47 <shawn> ... in all but extremem edge cases
15:52:20 <JohnRochford> Example research = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing_studies
15:52:28 <allanj> Jim: perhaps make them all AA, gather data for justification of level
15:53:38 <allanj> shawn: coordinate with COGA, we think AA, they may think some other level. perhaps combined may be higher.
15:54:06 <shawn> +1 to start with AA and consider additional data, as well as later for cognitive & mobile, multiple disabilities
15:54:17 <laura> +1
15:54:55 <allanj> Task Force Exchange - all info about Task Force work - SCs, Gap Analysis, etc. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Task_Force_Exchange
15:55:51 <allanj> Put data/research in LVTF SC issues https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues
15:56:08 <JohnRochford> Great conversation, but have to go. Ciao.
15:56:33 <allanj> wayne: these are level A, people are not finishing tasks.
15:56:48 <allanj> shawn: line spacing is definitely A
15:57:01 <allanj> shawn: margins? what level?
15:57:19 <shawn> s/line spacing is definitely A/if justification is A by that definion, then line spacing is definitely A
15:57:26 <allanj> wayne: with tunnel vision its a level A issue
15:59:09 <allanj> shawn: line length vs margins. margins is spacing between stuff.
15:59:38 <allanj> jim: I use margins to change line length.
16:00:15 <allanj> shawn: margins is for separating blocks of text
16:01:25 <Wayne> Note: We need to make add line length an item.
16:01:41 <allanj> shawn: add "mechanism to change line length"
16:02:52 <allanj> shawn: margins is part of spacing. line length is separate
16:04:00 <allanj> wayne: interior block objects, and exterior to block objects. margins should be separate.
16:05:25 <allanj> wayne: make 4 SCs
16:06:44 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:07:38 <Wayne> allenj: There is a wiki exchange, for each task force..
16:08:00 <Wayne> Shawn: will put that up on the vision page.
16:08:37 <allanj> Action: create another SC mechanism for line length
16:08:37 <trackbot> Error finding 'create'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:08:48 <allanj> Action: jim to create another SC mechanism for line length
16:08:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Create another sc mechanism for line length [on Jim Allan - due 2016-07-14].
16:09:14 <Wayne> zakim, open next item
16:09:14 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Wayne
16:09:33 <allanj> ack j
16:09:51 <Wayne> zakim, open next item
16:09:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "200% vs 1100% https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/5" taken up [from allanj]
16:10:22 <allanj> discussion thread: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Jul/0005.html
16:14:13 <allanj> wayne: if you linearize page, and in mozilla you can to go about: and change a setting.
16:14:20 <allanj> shawn: what about tables?
16:14:34 <allanj> laura: can make responsive tables.
16:15:46 <allanj> wayne: cell can fit on a screen, different from line.
16:16:18 <allanj> jim: per element reflow. tables and images no scrolling.
16:16:49 <allanj> shawn: table cell = block of text, not the table
16:19:11 <allanj> WCAG WG Wiki Page: Possible wording from Jason/David for LVTF re: zoom without horizontal scroll https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Possible_wording_from_Jason/David_for_LVTF_re:_zoom_without_horizontal_scroll
16:20:06 <allanj> jim: need a reference for 1100%
16:20:43 <allanj> wayne: should not be using %, should have characters per line
16:22:01 <allanj> may need to expand a block of text to include table cell
16:24:22 <allanj> scott: create a double AA upto a given size. and AAA for bigger. I use 400%, beyond I loose formatting, context, etc. beyond 400% I use AT. also beyond 8x may be time to use screen reader.
16:25:14 <allanj> ... question real world utility of 1100. need research. How many people? perhaps AAA for a narrow use case.
16:25:24 <allanj> ... asking for too much
16:26:01 <laura>  David MacDonald: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2016JulSep/0077.html
16:26:19 <allanj> scott: comment in the thread discussion
16:27:13 <allanj> scott: limits. AA is x%, AAA is xx%. developers need limits.
16:28:24 <allanj> Scott: depending on content I am between 200-400. Occasionally I go to 600. always adjusting depending on what I am doing
16:29:55 <allanj> ... most LV folks I know are using some AT. mag built into most OS is very limited...and lots of issues with OS functionality.
16:30:16 <ScottM> hello?
16:30:32 <allanj> rssagent, make minutes
16:31:29 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
16:32:35 <allanj> jim: reading text (guttenberg) vs using a website functionally. what is proper size?
16:33:00 <allanj> ... define function
16:33:19 <Wayne> ACTION: Wayne to contact 1100% source and create reading example
16:33:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Contact 1100% source and create reading example [on Wayne Dick - due 2016-07-14].
16:34:12 <laura> laura has left #lvtf
16:39:04 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
16:39:04 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:39:05 <Zakim> 3. 200% vs 1100% https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/5 [from allanj]
16:39:13 <allanj> close item 3
16:39:29 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:39:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:39:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, Shawn, Wayne, Scott, JohnRochford, Laura
16:39:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:39:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:39:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:39:38 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-actions.rdf :
16:39:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jim create 3 SCs, justification, spacing (letter, word, line, para), margins [1]
16:39:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-irc#T15-42-13
16:39:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: create another SC mechanism for line length [2]
16:39:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-irc#T16-08-37
16:39:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim to create another SC mechanism for line length [3]
16:39:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-irc#T16-08-48
16:39:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wayne to contact 1100% source and create reading example [4]
16:39:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-lvtf-irc#T16-33-19