IRC log of sdw on 2016-07-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sdw
12:58:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-irc
12:58:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:58:23 [Zakim]
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12:58:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
12:58:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
12:58:26 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:58:26 [trackbot]
Date: 06 July 2016
12:58:33 [aharth]
present+ aharth
12:59:01 [kerry]
present+ kerry
12:59:26 [jtandy]
present+ jtandy
12:59:30 [ByronCinNZ]
ByronCinNZ has joined #sdw
12:59:36 [kerry]
chair: Kerry
13:00:15 [ahaller2]
password: sdw
13:00:24 [ByronCinNZ]
present+
13:00:38 [kerry]
s/password: sdw//
13:01:02 [frans]
frans has joined #sdw
13:01:11 [ChrisLittle]
ChrisLittle has joined #Sdw
13:01:21 [billroberts]
present+ billroberts
13:01:31 [billroberts]
...though struggling to get webex going at the moment
13:01:32 [DanhLePhuoc]
DanhLePhuoc has joined #sdw
13:01:35 [phila]
scribe: phila
13:01:37 [kerry]
scribe: phila
13:01:40 [phila]
scribeNick: phila
13:01:43 [phila]
present+ phila
13:01:50 [Linda]
present+ Linda
13:01:52 [DanhLePhuoc]
present+ DanhLePhuoc
13:02:53 [roba]
present+ roba
13:02:58 [ChrisLittle]
Present+ ChrisLittle
13:03:01 [kerry]
regrets: rachel, lars, simoncox
13:03:10 [kerry]
regrets+ ed
13:03:10 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
13:03:17 [frans]
present+ frans
13:03:41 [kerry]
topic: approve minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-sdw-minutes.html
13:03:48 [kerry]
+1
13:03:48 [ChrisLittle]
+1
13:03:53 [Linda]
+1
13:03:53 [ByronCinNZ]
+1
13:03:55 [roba]
+1
13:03:56 [phila]
+0 (not present
13:03:56 [billroberts]
0 (sorry missed the last one)
13:04:00 [jtandy]
+1
13:04:18 [phila]
RESOLUTION: Last weekd' minutes accepted
13:04:36 [phila]
s/weekd'/week's/
13:04:38 [kerry]
topic: patent call https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
13:05:44 [AndreaPerego]
AndreaPerego has joined #sdw
13:05:49 [phila]
kerry: Yes, the minutes were from 2 weeks agao, i.e. the previous plenary meeting
13:05:52 [kerry]
topic: FPWD for time ontology in owl
13:06:00 [jtandy]
s/agao/ago/
13:06:18 [phila]
-> w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ OWL TIme Ontology Editors' Draft
13:06:32 [phila]
kerry: We talked about this 2 weeks ago and the action items have been done
13:06:41 [ahaller2]
s/TIme/Time
13:06:42 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sdw
13:06:50 [phila]
kerry: Andrea Perego asked for some references to be fixed, which have been done
13:06:56 [MattPerry]
present+ MattPerry
13:07:02 [phila]
kerry: I know Simon is ready to go ahead.
13:07:26 [phila]
ChrisLittle: The underlying ontology hasn't changed much. Some constraints have been removed.
13:07:40 [phila]
... I added some explanatory text about the diff between clocks and calendars.
13:08:08 [phila]
ChrisLittle: I'm happy with it as a FPWD. WE have some Notes and Issues but they seem right to me.
13:08:31 [phila]
chair: kerry
13:08:47 [phila]
ahaller2: We did some changes in SSN last week and updated it on Protege
13:08:53 [phila]
kerry: So nothing to do with Time.
13:09:02 [phila]
kerry: Any other questions and clarifications needed?
13:09:18 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
13:10:18 [phila]
PROPOSED: That the Editors' Draft of the OWL Time Ontology at w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ be published as a W3C FPWD and OGC Discussion Paper
13:10:25 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to feed
13:10:31 [jtandy]
+1
13:10:40 [roba]
+1
13:10:41 [frans]
+1
13:10:41 [AndreaPerego]
+1
13:10:43 [Linda]
+1
13:10:44 [MattPerry]
+1
13:10:45 [DanhLePhuoc]
+ยง
13:10:45 [billroberts]
+1
13:10:48 [DanhLePhuoc]
+1
13:10:48 [kerry]
+1
13:10:52 [jtandy]
s/feed/fpwd/
13:11:15 [ahaller2]
+1
13:11:20 [aharth]
+1 (still wondering why DAML-S/OWL-S in Section 6.7 is still relevant in 2016)
13:11:20 [phila]
RESOLUTION: That the Editors' Draft of the OWL Time Ontology at w3c.github.io/sdw/time/ be published as a W3C FPWD and OGC Discussion Paper
13:11:28 [frans]
congratulations! Well done Time Team!
13:11:33 [phila]
PROPOSED: Vote of thanks to Simon and Chris
13:11:37 [jtandy]
well done Simon (& Chris)
13:11:40 [Linda]
+1
13:11:45 [frans]
+1
13:11:51 [phila]
RESOLUTION: Vote of thanks to Simon and Chris
13:11:51 [AndreaPerego]
+1
13:11:56 [kerry]
+1
13:12:02 [billroberts]
+1
13:12:05 [DanhLePhuoc]
+1
13:12:22 [phila]
kerry: Did you notice that comment from aharth?
13:12:46 [phila]
ChrisLittle: Yes, I'll let Simon take that one. Simon was keen to maintain backwards compatibility.
13:12:54 [phila]
... We might end up removing that section
13:13:04 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:13:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
13:13:25 [phila]
Topic: Best Practice Document
13:13:31 [kerry]
topic: Progress on BP
13:13:36 [phila]
kerry: I think Linda was proposing to do this?
13:14:26 [phila]
Linda: Not much progress recently as we have all been very busy with otehr stuff but as of this week we have more time available
13:14:48 [phila]
Linda: We are taking another look at DWBP
13:14:57 [jtandy]
s/otehr/other/\
13:15:06 [phila]
phila: Notes that my task afer this call is to prepare the DWBP for Candidate Rec
13:15:16 [ahaller2]
s/afer/after
13:15:19 [phila]
Linda: We want to work on the narrative and work on the examples
13:15:45 [phila]
Linda: There has been some discussion on the mailing list. I have trouble following those discussions. Sometimes they are very long.
13:16:02 [phila]
... The way that people formulate their mails can be confusing.
13:16:14 [phila]
... For me personally, the list is more of a problem than a help.
13:16:32 [phila]
kerry: So how can we work differently?
13:16:47 [phila]
Linda: Am I the only one with this problem?
13:16:50 [phila]
kerry: I;m sure not.
13:16:55 [jtandy]
+1 to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:16:57 [phila]
q+
13:17:10 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to Jeremy
13:17:16 [jtandy]
(I meant q+ ...)
13:17:17 [phila]
kerry: If you don't follow them closely, it's easy to lose track of the conversation
13:17:18 [billroberts]
I also don't always have time to keep up wiht the mailing list discussions
13:17:23 [kerry]
q?
13:17:25 [phila]
ack me
13:17:26 [jtandy]
q+ to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:17:27 [kerry]
ack phila
13:17:27 [ahaller2]
s/I;m/I'm
13:17:57 [kerry]
q?
13:18:34 [kerry]
ack jtandy
13:18:34 [Zakim]
jtandy, you wanted to suggest that folks try to summarise discussions?
13:18:49 [phila]
phila: Suggests browsing the archive rather than using e-mail client. Threaded view can be arranged I think if needs be.
13:19:21 [phila]
jtandy: Some of the e-mail threads are short and concise. Others are very long and you have to read a lot to find out what's going on.
13:19:50 [kerry]
q+
13:19:56 [phila]
... You often find that there is a small number of protagonists. It would be helpful for them to summarise. That helps everyone, notably the editors who have to follow it.
13:19:58 [frans]
Perhaps topic starters could be moderators and summarize etc.?
13:20:16 [kerry]
ack kerry
13:20:17 [phila]
jtandy: It's a bit more work but it makes a big difference.
13:20:39 [phila]
kerry: I would add, if they're substantive, they should be more persistent, maybe on the wiki
13:21:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
BartvanLeeuwen has joined #sdw
13:21:32 [kerry]
q?
13:22:01 [phila]
kerry: Thanks Linda
13:22:13 [phila]
jtandy: I wanted to add to Linda's update.
13:22:40 [phila]
jtandy: When I go through the DWBP, I observe that many of the BPs that we were trying to write down oursleves are already represneted in some form in that doc.
13:22:55 [Nicky]
Nicky has joined #sdw
13:23:12 [phila]
... I think we have a chance to restructure the BP doc a little by reaching back to DWBP more. Should make our doc easier to read and avoids duplication.
13:23:24 [Linda]
q+
13:23:32 [phila]
jtandy: It might appear dramatic, shortening the doc quite a lot, but we think it's as valuable as before but shorter.
13:23:39 [phila]
q+ to talk about subsetting
13:24:00 [phila]
kerry: That sounds sensible
13:24:23 [phila]
jtandy: Now that Linda and I have got a whole load of other work done, I can get to this. 50% of my time on SDW in July
13:24:41 [phila]
q?
13:24:45 [phila]
ack l
13:25:03 [phila]
Linda: I also have around 50% of my time for this in July.
13:25:32 [kerry]
+1 i like that idea linda!
13:25:37 [jtandy]
+1
13:25:38 [phila]
Linda: More concretely, I think it would make sense to restructure it to put in the same order as DWBP, so that ours extends theirs. I'm starting to see it in my head
13:25:39 [AndreaPerego]
+1
13:25:39 [Nicky]
present+ nicky
13:25:41 [phila]
ack me
13:25:41 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about subsetting
13:25:48 [kerry]
ack phila
13:25:55 [ByronCinNZ]
+1 for Linda
13:27:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
13:27:19 [jtandy]
q+
13:27:25 [kerry]
q?
13:27:33 [kerry]
ack jtandy
13:27:38 [phila]
phila: Gives update on DWBP status. Document now locked for CR.
13:28:14 [phila]
jtandy: There are some examples where we can say more specific things as we're specially spatial. There's a set of BPs around establishing links between things that rean't in DWBP that we'll have to add.
13:28:41 [phila]
jtandy: As we write our examples, you'll see us referring to DWBP, specialisations of those, and some new BPs that are particular to spatial
13:28:45 [kerry]
q?
13:28:45 [phila]
phila: Perfect, thank you
13:29:01 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:29:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
13:29:32 [kerry]
topic: BP narrative: navigating one's way among multiple representations (see https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Conneg)
13:29:52 [phila]
kerry: You might have seen roba's thread on this
13:30:10 [phila]
roba: I'll try and summarise.
13:30:57 [phila]
roba: There are a number of cases emerging that seem to boil down to a pattern that hasn't been identified in DWBP specifically, that differnet sets about the same world object aren't related.
13:31:25 [phila]
... The coastline of Europe, for example, has multiple properties of the same object.
13:31:55 [phila]
... The synatx for the Lined Data API offers named entities. This is similar to conneg.
13:32:03 [phila]
... Sounds related to features anda geometries
13:32:26 [phila]
... Do the examples that exist help us identify best practice? I think so, but there are implementation challenges.
13:32:37 [phila]
... jtandy Talked about profiles
13:32:41 [phila]
q+ to talk about profiles
13:32:45 [frans]
what is the e-mail thread on this subject?
13:33:09 [aharth]
fwiw: the GADM data exposes geometries using content negotation, example linked from the home page at http://gadm.geovocab.org/
13:33:09 [phila]
roba: I believe we do need ot get to a consensus what the BP is on this.
13:33:23 [phila]
roba: I don't think we've talked about this.
13:33:41 [phila]
... And there was another use case coming from Frans that isn't quite the same is getting at the same idea.
13:33:43 [jtandy]
q+
13:33:52 [phila]
ack me
13:33:52 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about profiles
13:34:05 [phila]
-> https://www.w3.org/2016/11/sdsvoc/ SDSVoc
13:34:40 [kerry]
this is the email thread: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2016Jul/0025.html
13:35:14 [kerry]
q?
13:35:45 [kerry]
ack jtandy
13:35:48 [phila]
phila: Talks about SDSVoc and the profiles aspect
13:35:59 [phila]
jtandy: I'll try and get that in my diary.
13:36:41 [frans]
q+
13:36:42 [Linda]
q+
13:36:44 [phila]
jtandy: When I listen to the problem Rob's describing, it's a pattern we see a lot. One real world object but lots of ways of describing it. Do others recognise this as a challenge?
13:36:48 [ByronCinNZ]
+1
13:36:55 [phila]
ack f
13:36:55 [billroberts]
yes - it's a challenge
13:37:05 [frans]
yes, it is a challenge
13:37:21 [kerry]
ack linda
13:37:29 [billroberts]
q+
13:37:30 [phila]
Linda: We see it as a challenge too. it came up in the Geonovum test bed.
13:37:39 [phila]
... There are many aspects that you want to negotiate on.
13:37:46 [AndreaPerego]
+1 also from me.
13:38:04 [phila]
ack b
13:38:05 [kerry]
ack billroberts
13:38:24 [frans]
No one could hear me?
13:38:26 [phila]
billroberts: This is a practical problem that we come across. Differnet geometries/resolutions, as well as serialisations.
13:38:51 [phila]
billroberts: We can do it in RDF with data models that support it.
13:39:03 [phila]
... You can choose the representation that you want.
13:39:31 [phila]
... You also want things that chage over time. The representatiion as it is now vs what it was a year ago.
13:39:38 [phila]
... And then there's the open world assumption
13:39:49 [frans]
I wanted to say that there is a difference between different data about a thing within a single data set and between different data sets. In the latter case the real world thing has multiple URIs
13:40:04 [phila]
billroberts: So we have a bunch of mechanisms. Lots of practices, but which is best? I don't know.
13:40:22 [kerry]
q?
13:40:28 [phila]
billroberts: I don't think there's going tyo be a single right answer.
13:40:35 [phila]
kerry: try again frans
13:40:44 [phila]
[Frans talks to his local mute button]
13:40:46 [frans]
Sorry
13:40:57 [frans]
I have just typed the things I wanted to say
13:41:08 [frans]
at 15:39:48
13:41:15 [ahaller2]
s/tyo/to
13:41:23 [kerry]
q?
13:41:25 [jtandy]
q+
13:41:45 [kerry]
ack jtandy
13:41:50 [AndreaPerego]
Just for our records, see this IETF RFC proposal from Lars (Svensson): "Negotiating Schemas in HTTP", http://files.dnb.de/svensson/I-D-accept-schema.txt
13:41:59 [phila]
jtandy: Now that we have validated that this is an issue that people see in different places, we can go on to talk about what the BP is.
13:42:23 [phila]
... This is distinct from the technical implentation. Rob talked about named views in LinkedData API
13:42:35 [AndreaPerego]
s/representatiion/representation/
13:42:54 [phila]
... Dret's Draft talks about different representations in JSON-LD, each one can declare which data model it uses.
13:43:23 [phila]
jtandy: So we can try and identify a number of options at the November workshop.
13:43:50 [phila]
jtandy: When I think aboiut the definition of a Feature, a feature type can only be of one type.
13:44:32 [AndreaPerego]
s/aboiut/about/
13:44:49 [phila]
roba: I think the distinction between a real world object and one or models of it... is a real one. I don't think we're fixed on only one feature type.
13:45:08 [phila]
... I only mention LinkedData API as a ref, not necessarily saying it's the best way to go.
13:45:32 [phila]
roba: I'm not sure that there's a specially spatial aspect.
13:45:48 [phila]
... The general case is different info models for differnet purposes.
13:45:52 [jtandy]
q=
13:45:57 [jtandy]
q+
13:46:05 [jtandy]
ack jtandy
13:46:37 [phila]
ChrisLittle: +1 to Rob. Different data models are part of the represnetation. That suggests different search mechanisms might be more appropriate.
13:46:56 [phila]
... For example, you might see a 2D map but the underlying model might be a 3D point cloud but they're of the smae thing.
13:47:06 [kerry]
q?
13:47:06 [frans]
s/represnetation/representation
13:47:19 [jtandy]
s/smae/same/
13:48:13 [ahaller2]
+1 I think it is a general issue, not a spatial only
13:49:19 [kerry]
q?
13:50:14 [phila]
phila: Highlights specially spatial aspect of things like resolution which won't come up in the workshop without SDW people.
13:50:17 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to Phil.
13:50:17 [phila]
Topic: Actions
13:50:55 [kerry]
https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/overdue
13:51:00 [phila]
action-25?
13:51:00 [trackbot]
action-25 -- Jeremy Tandy to Help with glossary -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN
13:51:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/25
13:51:18 [phila]
kerry: The glossary exists. Anything specific to be done? Can we close it?
13:51:42 [phila]
jtandy: I think something that came out was related to use of the terms like Coverage that are already in the OGC glossary.
13:51:56 [phila]
kerry: OK, I'll leave it open for now.
13:52:12 [phila]
action-85?
13:52:12 [trackbot]
action-85 -- Bart van Leeuwen to Write up a bp around properties in wfs to link a feature to its linked data version -- due 2015-11-03 -- OPEN
13:52:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/85
13:52:14 [kerry]
action-85?
13:52:14 [trackbot]
action-85 -- Bart van Leeuwen to Write up a bp around properties in wfs to link a feature to its linked data version -- due 2015-11-03 -- OPEN
13:52:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/85
13:53:17 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: My comment - we have a demo near ready. Nicky's back from holiday today and we're working on it now. We should have something in 2 weeks' time.
13:53:23 [phila]
kerry: Should we schedule time in 2 weeks?
13:53:42 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: Tha should work.
13:53:53 [phila]
kerry: That's a demo linking a WFS?
13:53:56 [phila]
BartvanLeeuwen: Yep.
13:54:05 [phila]
action-101?
13:54:05 [trackbot]
action-101 -- Bill Roberts to Compile a list of geospatial vocabularies in rdf -- due 2015-11-25 -- OPEN
13:54:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/101
13:54:08 [kerry]
action-101 ?
13:54:08 [trackbot]
action-101 -- Bill Roberts to Compile a list of geospatial vocabularies in rdf -- due 2015-11-25 -- OPEN
13:54:08 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/actions/101
13:54:30 [phila]
kerry: I'm pretty sure that's done.
13:54:39 [phila]
billroberts: I made a first pass and people contributed.
13:55:03 [phila]
... I could still trace back through the mails and try and do something with it. I can't remember what we wanted it for.
13:55:15 [phila]
jtandy: We were trying to tell people what the choices were.
13:55:22 [phila]
kerry: Is there more to be done?
13:55:41 [phila]
jtandy: I think we can close this. if we need more, we'll create it again.
13:55:49 [Linda]
+1
13:56:01 [phila]
billroberts: There is more info associated with that. But I think it might be difficult to make a BP from it.
13:56:08 [phila]
q+ to talk about Frans' work?
13:56:21 [roba]
q+
13:56:33 [kerry]
ack phila
13:56:33 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about Frans' work?
13:56:37 [phila]
jtandy: The trick becomes how you would choose which vocab to use and providing hte infio to make that choice
13:57:01 [kerry]
q?
13:57:05 [AndreaPerego]
s/hte infio/the info/
13:57:14 [phila]
phila: isn't that what Frans et al are working on?
13:57:15 [kerry]
ack roba
13:58:01 [phila]
roba: I think we have a situation where at the level of the individual implementation we'll be here forever. Think of measures vocab - there are many to choose from.
13:58:08 [Linda]
q+ to suggest if we close action-101, we can close action-103 as well
13:58:27 [phila]
roba: It's about choosing a vocab that your community of interest is already using.
13:58:46 [jtandy]
[agree with Rob]
13:58:47 [phila]
q+ to talk about https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:58:49 [kerry]
close action-101
13:58:49 [trackbot]
Closed action-101.
13:58:57 [phila]
ack Linda
13:58:57 [Zakim]
Linda, you wanted to suggest if we close action-101, we can close action-103 as well
13:59:01 [kerry]
ack linda?
13:59:03 [jtandy]
+1
13:59:08 [phila]
close action-103
13:59:08 [trackbot]
Closed action-103.
13:59:17 [phila]
ack me
13:59:17 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:59:18 [phila]
https://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
13:59:49 [phila]
kerry: I'm going to close the meeting there.
14:00:08 [phila]
kerry: Thanks everyone. And congrats on another publication.
14:00:09 [AndreaPerego]
Bye bye
14:00:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
thx bye
14:00:14 [billroberts]
thanks, bye
14:00:17 [kerry]
bye!
14:00:19 [frans]
bye
14:00:25 [roba]
bye
14:00:28 [roba]
\quit
14:00:30 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/06-sdw-minutes.html phila
14:01:24 [Nicky]
Nicky has left #sdw
16:09:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sdw