18:04:14 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 18:04:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/29-svg-a11y-irc 18:04:16 RRSAgent, make logs ab 18:04:16 Zakim has joined #svg-a11y 18:04:18 Zakim, this will be 18:04:18 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 18:04:19 Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 18:04:20 Date: 29 June 2016 18:04:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:04:32 chairL fred 18:04:42 chair: fred 18:04:52 present+ AmeliaBR 18:04:57 scribe: Brian 18:05:20 TOPIC: Nested Links 18:05:34 fesch: We had a discussions thread on ARIA 18:05:44 fesch: many of the things worthy of note are that nested links are not allowed in HTML 18:05:58 fesch: nested links don't have particualrly good support, because it's not allowed 18:06:11 fesch: not sure if you read all the threads, but some of them got philosophical about what people would like 18:06:27 fesch: In the earlier email threads, some of them like Matt, pointed out 18:06:32 Fred, screen readers, at least, do not have a way of rendering a link that is nested inside another link. So, yes, there are problems. A good question is whether nesting links provide sufficient benefits to merit solving those problems … in ARIA 2.0, of course. Matt 18:06:52 fesch: that was matt's input - the main point is that screen readers don't know how to handle it 18:06:57 I see a lot of problems with this. First, HTML doesn't have nested links, 18:06:58 so why should SVG if they want to duplicate HTML features? 18:07:00 Second, since there are no nested links in HTML, ATs have no support for 18:07:01 them. 18:07:03 richardschwerdtfeger: they flateen them out, that's what the browsers doing 18:07:03 Third, nested links in themselves sound like a bad idea. Where does one 18:07:04 link end, where does the next one start, what's the keyboard model like, 18:07:06 where do clicks go, do we have two tab stops or three (in terms of two 18:07:07 links nested in one another) etc. etc. 18:07:09 But basically, the discussion ends at point 2, if not even point 1. 18:07:10 My suggestion is that SVG should not have nested links. No support for them 18:07:12 in HTML or ATs, and lots of unanswered questions that we didn't have to 18:07:13 deal with in HTML because nested links aren't supported. 18:07:15 Marco Zehe 18:07:27 fesch: several things are happening, they would drop stuff after the second link. There's a lot of different behavior 18:07:51 fesch: above is marco's email - ATs don't support them, why does SVG want them 18:08:01 richardschwerdtfeger: I agree, it's confusing 18:08:38 Amelia states she will ask the SVG WG to neuter nested links. 18:08:44 AmeliaBR: There are a couple issues here that really come down to ATs have no idea how to handle this, becasue it's not something they ever expect to come across 18:09:19 AmeliaBR: when you have a link and structured content inside the link they should be able to expose that. But a link inside a link, we can say that shouldn't function. Right now it's inconsistently supported 18:09:28 AmeliaBR: we wuld need to submit bugs to various browsers 18:09:52 richardschwerdtfeger: there's too many inconsistencies with SVG across browsers. We don't need to introduce anything as flaky as this 18:10:28 AmeliaBR: I haven't reverted the changes yet. We have a resolution next week in the SVG working group to formally remove this. I don't expect anyone to vigorous defense of nested links 18:10:56 AmeliaBR: there needs to be special error handlng rules for nested links so that child content will be presented in browsers that do not support nested links 18:11:16 fesch: does anyone here support nested links in SVG? Actual silence, in this group? 18:11:23 AmeliaBR: I like the idea, but not right now 18:11:25 richardschwerdtfeger: SVG 6 18:11:42 fesch: since no one supports it, and we know there's technical issues lets make a resolution 18:12:26 fesch: any discussion, anyone opposed? 18:12:30 RESOLUTION: Recommend the SVG Workign Group Withdraw Support for Nested Links in SVG 18:12:50 fesch: Amelia, if you want ot relay that to the SVG group, we'd appreciate it 18:12:57 fesch: now, let's talk about your changes 18:13:23 TOPIC: Amelia's Changes 18:13:27 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Jun/0013.html 18:13:56 AmeliaBR: we did a face to face, we made lots of different changes 18:14:07 AmeliaBR: these are the ones I thought had accessibility implications 18:14:11 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements 18:14:20 AmeliaBR: I finally rewrote the section on description adn title, here's the current text 18:14:34 AmeliaBR: a few changes we previously talked about. Clarifying the rules about multi-lingual switching 18:14:55 AmeliaBR: a mention that browsers can user user's preferences to pick the best match, rather than simply the first match 18:15:15 AmeliaBR: there are rules for when lang is an empty string, which is valid for unknown or no language 18:15:36 AmeliaBR: an example is included with a star, this will match as the lowest priority match for everyone 18:15:45 AmeliaBR: a warning about against using an empty title and desc 18:15:57 fesch: before we go on, it looks like this may need a new testable statement 18:16:15 AmeliaBR: probably yeah, in your section dealing with language switching. You'd probably want to use that example I've got in the spec 18:16:32 AmeliaBR: that's something Joni brought up, what to do with empty language 18:16:33 action fesch add testable statement for blank lang 18:16:33 Created ACTION-2027 - Add testable statement for blank lang [on Fred Esch - due 2016-07-06]. 18:16:53 AmeliaBR: warnings about title and desc, and about using title and desc if something is semantically important 18:17:39 AmeliaBR: the other change is making it clear that title and desc can be used on any element except for a few exceptions. The switch element; script and style are treated as character data. Other than that you can have title and desc on anything 18:17:56 AmeliaBR: for anything not rendered you can only use it as labelledby or describedby 18:18:00 fesch: a title on a filter? 18:18:16 AmeliaBR: yes, you can put a title on a filter but it won't add it to the accessibility tree 18:18:25 AmeliaBR: this is more for authors, the AAM is more for user agents 18:18:37 fesch: this does not change anything in the SVG-AAm? 18:18:40 AmeliaBR: it shouldn't 18:19:07 AmeliaBR: the only normative changes in the AAM are the language switching rules, because it defers to SVG in picking the correct language option 18:19:30 fesch: any questions? 18:19:47 AmeliaBR: the next one on my lsit was nested links, but we already talked about it 18:20:04 AmeliaBR: number 3, we may need some changes to AAM, but that should be minor 18:20:40 AmeliaBR: the mesh element was a paint server and a shape. I will need to add an entry for the AAM for the new element, but I'm holding off as we're still deciding about the best name for the new element. 18:20:52 fesch: once the name's decdied we'll add a testable statement for the new element 18:21:24 AmeliaBR: the swtich element now has better language selection rules. This now allows using the preferred language if multiple acceptable languages are provided. 18:21:47 AmeliaBR: I don't know if you have any tests involving switch. Not stirctly an accessibility feature. 18:22:05 AmeliaBR: final change is not in that email, but I put through yesterday a section on aria- attributes and allowed roles 18:22:05 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#WAIARIAAttributes 18:22:41 AmeliaBR: I was gonna rewrite these to use categories. For allowed rules and default roles, rather than using explicit values for each element. This should be up to date according to the SVG-AAM 18:23:13 AmeliaBR: this is now using the new graphics roles. 18:23:27 fesch: do we have a catch-22 situation? Do you reference the roles in the graphics module AAM? 18:23:39 AmeliaBR: I don't reference the graphics AAM, I refrence the graphics ARIA module 18:23:51 AmeliaBR: practially, before we can test this, we need the graphics-AAM 18:24:05 AmeliaBR: saying it should use this role, but not how it should be exposed means we don't have something we can test 18:24:10 fesch: that's all the changes so far? 18:24:27 AmeliaBR: There were some editorial changes. I'd appreciate someone reading through it quickly for anything problematic. 18:24:42 AmeliaBR: the normative change was changing the table to match the chagnes we've already got in AAM 18:24:48 fesch: any questions for Amelia? 18:25:09 fesch: hearing none, I think we're done with that subject. Does anyone have any news or anything like that? 18:25:55 TOPIC: Publishing Drafts 18:26:17 AmeliaBR: I think we resolved on this last time around. Graphics-aam needs a lot of work, but I think we should publish it as a first working draft 18:26:27 fesch: a workign draft can have changes, we expect it 18:27:01 fesch: I'm going to propose a resolution we publish a first draft of the graphics-aam and a heartbeat of the other two documents 18:27:45 +1 18:28:09 RESOLUTION: Publish a First Working Draft of the Graphics Module-AAM and the Heartbeat of the SVG-AAM and the Graphics Module 18:29:33 fesch: anyone have any news or other things they want to talk about? Agenda items? 18:30:03 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:30:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/29-svg-a11y-minutes.html Brian 18:36:46 fesch has left #svg-a11y 18:58:52 AmeliaBR has left #svg-a11y 20:27:27 Zakim has left #svg-a11y 22:09:07 chaals has joined #svg-a11y