14:54:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
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14:54:50 <patrick_h_lauke> Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group
14:55:02 <patrick_h_lauke> Chair: patrick_h_lauke
14:55:50 <teddink> teddink has joined #pointerevents
14:56:04 <patrick_h_lauke> (just grabbing a fresh coffee, and fair warning that i have to dash off 10 minutes before the hour)
14:56:54 <patrick_h_lauke> any scribe volunteers?
15:01:51 <mustaq> present+ Mustaq_Ahmed
15:02:06 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:02:13 <dtapuska> dtapuska has joined #pointerevents
15:02:18 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ teddink
15:02:21 <smaug> present+ Olli_Pettay
15:02:29 <dtapuska> present+ dtapuska
15:02:57 <rbyers> present+ Rick_Byers
15:02:58 <dtapuska> who is scribbing today? I can do it if you like
15:03:06 <patrick_h_lauke> dtapuska you're on
15:03:12 <patrick_h_lauke> scribe: dtapuska
15:03:29 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:03:29 <Zakim> sorry, smaug, I do not see a party named 'Olli_Pettay'
15:04:41 <dtapuska> PL: Doug isn't hear; first agenda item was to discuss first working draft
15:04:49 <dtapuska> s/hear/here
15:04:52 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: repo cleanup? https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/90
15:05:32 <dtapuska> PL: Fairly safe to remove
15:05:47 <dtapuska> ... anyone else have any issues please shout out
15:06:05 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm hearing somebody asking if we can hear them...
15:06:14 <patrick_h_lauke> we can, but can you hear us?
15:06:18 <teddink> No issues - dialing back in now. My friend Skype is not cooperating this morning.
15:06:28 <teddink> Nope - can;t hear you - dialing back in.
15:06:57 <patrick_h_lauke> we'll wait a minute for ted to come back
15:07:02 <patrick_h_lauke> just shout when you're back in
15:07:41 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: Support hovering button states https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/14
15:08:16 <dtapuska> RB: only outstanding issue on this one is on teddink;
15:09:10 <dtapuska> teddink: I think I have an answer; just give me a minute to get it into github
15:10:01 <dtapuska> ... was definitely get an answer for the anniversary edition of edge coming out. We treat pen as a mouse
15:10:17 <dtapuska> ... so that assumption is the same as we were discussing on the github issue
15:10:46 <dtapuska> MA: When you are treating pen as a mouse; when the pen is touching the surface it is a left click dragging mouse
15:11:58 <dtapuska> TD: it is a little more complicated on the windows side; as soon as it interacts with an app it is a pen; but when it interacts with a view then it is mouse
15:12:17 <dtapuska> DF: Sorry to interrupt; I don't have much time; was anything needed from me?
15:12:32 <dtapuska> PL: Just discussion about first working draft; we will sync up later
15:12:48 <dtapuska> PL: So issue 14 can be closed; so treating the pen as a mouse is ok
15:12:57 <dtapuska> RB: We had a proposed changed didn't we?
15:13:08 <dtapuska> MA: I think we agreed we don't need a change in the spec just a test
15:13:24 <dtapuska> ... we are keeping the definition of click the same;
15:13:34 <dtapuska> RB: We are talking about issue 14; not that one
15:14:01 <dtapuska> ... Scott gave us description two weeks ago.. there are some minor changes in the spec test
15:14:09 <dtapuska> ... someone should own the spec changes.
15:14:13 <dtapuska> MA: I'll take it
15:14:19 <patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: mustaq to file pull request
15:14:39 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: Click event while a pointer event is captured https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/75:
15:14:57 <dtapuska> PL: Are we ok to close issue 75?
15:15:33 <dtapuska> ... current spec test is fine; edge is tracking an issue
15:15:47 <dtapuska> RB: Yup; we just need a web platform test
15:16:06 <dtapuska> ... mustaq opened an issue in web-platform-tests so we can effectively close this issue
15:16:09 <patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: close issue
15:16:25 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: Clarify click event firing for chorded buttons https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/93
15:16:54 <dtapuska> MA: PE spec doesn't override the click defintion
15:17:22 <dtapuska> ... should fire on mouse down/up; but it isn't clear about what fires for corded buttons.
15:17:40 <dtapuska> ... Any activity for a primary button should fire the click event
15:18:00 <dtapuska> RB: perhaps teddink can test it.
15:18:23 <dtapuska> ... this is a bit of an edge case; I don't think it matters too much
15:18:30 <dtapuska> ... but the spec should have a note
15:18:46 <dtapuska> ... I'm ok noting it either way edge implements it
15:18:54 <dtapuska> TD: Ok I will look at it soon
15:19:02 <patrick_h_lauke> action: ted to check edge implementation and comment on github
15:19:09 <dtapuska> ACTION: 93 gets assigned to teddink
15:19:29 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: setPointerCapture should say something about iframes https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/16
15:19:58 <dtapuska> RB: So we have just been discussing with the security team this morning
15:20:35 <dtapuska> ... would be ok with a limitation with a cross origin iframe and there is no pointer interaction
15:20:46 <dtapuska> ... whether setPointerCapture isn't allowed
15:21:02 <dtapuska> ... sounded like jacob was ok with it but wasn't really required.
15:21:23 <dtapuska> ... We need to do it for sandboxed iframes; so we'd have to do the work anyways.
15:21:42 <dtapuska> ... teddink can you follow up with jacob to comment on the bug
15:21:47 <patrick_h_lauke> action: ted to check with jacob if there are further issues/problems or if we should accept this
15:22:26 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: Should a captured pointer send boundary events by default?  (https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/61) linked to https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/39 and  https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/8
15:22:52 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: implementation update
15:23:22 <dtapuska> MA: We don't have an big implementation issues; so we will move forward with marking feature as experimental
15:23:37 <dtapuska> ... one issue with maps; but they will be landing a fix to the front end soon
15:24:20 <dtapuska> RB: Our main blocker is getting resolved with PE; we were waiting for maps front end to be fixed
15:24:50 <dtapuska> ... they have a backwards implementation checking for compatibility.. they were testing the touch event constructor and then testing for PE events
15:25:05 <dtapuska> ... but still having the pointer event handlers and canceling the events
15:25:35 <dtapuska> ... relatively easy to fix in maps; if you delete the touch event constructor pointer events works fine with maps
15:25:58 <dtapuska> ... so we aren't aware of any other blocking issues. So we can roll it out to a larger experimental audience
15:26:18 <dtapuska> PL: Is it something that non-normative added to the spec?
15:26:40 <dtapuska> ... or is that a working group note; some pseudo code how to detect pointer events, touch..
15:26:53 <dtapuska> RB: Ya it would be good that specs indicate about feature detection
15:27:04 <dtapuska> ... just trying to find the msdn page
15:27:15 <rbyers> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn433244(v=vs.85).aspx
15:27:27 <smaug> is the audio bad just for me?
15:27:38 <dtapuska> smaug: its fine for us
15:27:40 <smaug> now it is fine
15:28:30 <dtapuska> PL: something might be helpful; we don't mention that certain UAs support PE and other things like touch events
15:28:42 <dtapuska> ... I can take an initial look at this; and we can hash it out in github
15:28:54 <dtapuska> RB: I'll file an issue and assign it to you
15:29:14 <patrick_h_lauke> https://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/3d-jquery-rotator/index-pointerevents.html
15:29:17 <dtapuska> PL: I've been playing with PE in the dev edition. Did hit some weirdness
15:29:49 <dtapuska> PE: I didn't manage to get it working; it doesn't seem to keep the swiping
15:30:07 <dtapuska> ... fairly sure I've added touch action; not sure how to track it down further
15:30:19 <dtapuska> RB: I see it working with mouse and not touch
15:30:35 <dtapuska> PL: does work with touch on my surface
15:30:41 <patrick_h_lauke> https://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tracker/tracker-width-height.html
15:30:50 <dtapuska> ... something similar I'm seeing the first movement but nothing else
15:31:07 <dtapuska> RB: Just for touch
15:31:22 <dtapuska> ... this is likely the issue we found yesterday
15:31:33 <dtapuska> ... touch-action isn't always applied
15:31:48 <dtapuska> teddink: touch-action only applies inside the box
15:32:02 <dtapuska> RB: Can you file an issue on this; and we should block on this
15:32:22 <dtapuska> ACTION: MA will open a chromium bug
15:33:08 <dtapuska> OP: I haven't been able to sync up with them; there are some new people working on itt
15:33:28 <patrick_h_lauke> topic: Should a captured pointer send boundary events by default?  (https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/61) linked to https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/39 and  https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/8
15:34:08 <dtapuska> RB: we were debating about what was most logical; scott wrote some demos
15:34:20 <dtapuska> ... Is this waiting on a response from you teddink?
15:34:46 <dtapuska> TD: Ya I was exchanging some emails with jacob and it works for the simple example
15:35:19 <dtapuska> ... but as soon as we get into more complex cases; with translation; svg, etc... it doesn't really work with the bounding box example
15:35:36 <dtapuska> ... trickier and potentially impossible when it is just a box
15:36:01 <dtapuska> RB: ya the bounding box approach is optimization for the simple case
15:36:15 <dtapuska> ... But elementFromPoint should work for anything.
15:36:40 <dtapuska> TD: Only thing that came into the case was CSS hover
15:37:00 <dtapuska> ... someone might have to be applying a class name
15:37:15 <dtapuska> ... jacob asserted that the simple case should just work with CSS
15:37:41 <dtapuska> RB: Ya the simple case works purely with CSS in your design; but with javascript in our design
15:38:14 <dtapuska> ... there are pros and cons to either design. If there were actually websites relying on it today and that would give us concrete information
15:38:34 <dtapuska> ... is there any way you (@teddink) that you can provide some usage data?
15:39:01 <dtapuska> TD: We don't have data that low; but we could and it would take some cycles to get the data
15:39:39 <dtapuska> RB: I think we should try to gather our data when we come face to face to discuss it in Redmond
15:39:54 <dtapuska> TD: Does google have any data?
15:40:11 <dtapuska> RB: we don't have any data from the field because we don't have PE enabled
15:41:25 <dtapuska> ... other way to approach this; it is all tied up to the implicit hit testing..
15:41:55 <dtapuska> ... can you ask your team to how would you feel if chrome shipped this way
15:42:26 <dtapuska> ... leaving it as an open issue in the spec; and have an interop issue that we'd get back data from web developers
15:42:45 <dtapuska> TD: 13% overall are using PE
15:43:55 <dtapuska> MA: can we get the whatever list you have
15:44:23 <dtapuska> TD: Ya I can send the list
15:45:07 <dtapuska> RB: We both should do some searching here. We lack some experience that your QA team has
15:45:47 <dtapuska> ... does your QA team has more experience in knowing what tends to be issues with respect to pointer events
15:46:33 <dtapuska> TD: I can certainly talk to the QA team and see if they know of anything. I can certainly also look at the bug database and the issues..
15:47:52 <dtapuska> RB: If there are examples of sites that break when turn on touch events on edge desktop; those sites would certainly be important for us to look at
15:47:54 <patrick_h_lauke> (misheard "ship blocker" as "shit blocker"...true though)
15:48:20 <dtapuska> RB: More detail the better before we meet F2F
15:49:01 <patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: ted to scour bug db/QA to get specific sites/scenarios that may be likely to expose the difference in behavior, work with rick on resolving this
15:49:19 <smaug> some query on the google tool on sites using setPointerCapture and boundary events?
15:50:11 <dtapuska> RB: We will get some data from dev channel; and then the bugs will roll in and we can analyze
15:50:33 <dtapuska> PL: we've worked through the agenda items; any other business?
15:50:54 <dtapuska> ... next wednesday?; see you then
15:51:24 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, create minutes
15:51:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-minutes.html patrick_h_lauke
15:51:34 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:51:40 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, bye
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mustaq to file pull request [1]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-14-19
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: close issue [2]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-16-09
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ted to check edge implementation and comment on github [3]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-19-02
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: 93 gets assigned to teddink [4]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-19-09
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ted to check with jacob if there are further issues/problems or if we should accept this [5]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-21-47
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MA will open a chromium bug [6]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-32-22
15:51:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ted to scour bug db/QA to get specific sites/scenarios that may be likely to expose the difference in behavior, work with rick on resolving this [7]
15:51:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/22-pointerevents-irc#T15-49-01