14:14:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:14:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-lvtf-irc
14:14:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:14:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:14:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:14:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:14:53 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2016
14:15:04 <allanj> Chair: Jim
14:15:37 <allanj> Agenda+​ create process for proposing and revising SCs
14:15:47 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
14:15:47 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:15:48 <Zakim> 2. Section 2.5: Functional Vision https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/73 [from allanj]
14:15:48 <Zakim> 3. Disclaimer draft (action-58)  https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/67 [from allanj]
14:15:48 <Zakim> 5. Begin working on SC - acceptance criteria (review), walk the gap analysis (proposed - WCAG needs SC before Dec 2016) [from allanj]
14:15:49 <Zakim> 6. meeting time [from shawn-off]
14:15:49 <Zakim> 7. ​ create process for proposing and revising SCs [from allanj]
14:16:09 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
14:16:09 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:16:14 <allanj> Agenda+​ create process for proposing and revising SCs
14:16:33 <allanj> Agenda+​ ​review questions to ask about modifying/creating SC
14:16:43 <allanj> Agenda+ review SC for User Need 3.1.2
14:18:01 <allanj> regrets: laura
14:18:07 <allanj> present+
14:18:20 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:18:20 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, shawn, Laura, Scott, allanj
14:18:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, shawn-bbiab, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
14:19:21 <allanj> present -wayne -shawn -laura -Scott -Jim
14:19:25 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:19:25 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, shawn, Laura, Scott, allanj
14:19:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, shawn-bbiab, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
14:19:43 <allanj> present-wayne
14:19:52 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:19:52 <Zakim> Present: Jim, shawn, Laura, Scott, allanj
14:19:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, shawn-bbiab, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
14:20:09 <allanj> present- scott
14:20:19 <allanj> present- Laura
14:20:23 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:20:23 <Zakim> Present: Jim, shawn, allanj
14:20:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, shawn-bbiab, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
14:20:34 <allanj> present- Jim
14:52:04 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:00:28 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:01:45 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:05:01 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:05:14 <ScottM> hats rerettable
15:06:14 <ScottM_> ScottM_ has joined #lvtf
15:06:35 <laura> Webex problems. will try calling in via phone instead of computer.
15:06:56 <allanj> s/hats rerettable/
15:07:03 <ScottM_> irc going nuts for me
15:08:15 <allanj> Agenda?
15:08:57 <JohnRochford> zakim, open item 1
15:08:57 <Zakim> agendum 1. "​ create process for proposing and revising SCs" taken up [from allanj]
15:13:41 <shawn-bbiab> q+
15:13:52 <shawn> ack w
15:14:13 <allanj> proposed process
15:14:15 <shawn> ack sh
15:14:20 <allanj> - create an issue for each user need
15:14:21 <JohnRochford> Jim: proposed a way to create SCs
15:14:22 <allanj>    - use comments for proposing and editing SCs
15:14:23 <allanj>    - when SC finalized update current table putting SC with all appropriate
15:14:25 <allanj> user needs (same SC in multiple user needs
15:14:26 <allanj>    - or -
15:14:28 <allanj>    - create new table of SCs with all the user needs met by the SC
15:14:29 <allanj> also
15:14:31 <allanj>    - use comments for the resolution of how we dealt with the user need
15:14:32 <allanj> (defer to WCAG.next or something else)
15:15:07 <allanj> see new table http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
15:17:01 <allanj> sh: create issue for each proposed SC, then discussion in comments
15:17:41 <allanj> sh: suggests rewording Wayne's work for proposed SC
15:18:32 <allanj> proposed acceptance criteria for SC from WCAG: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Requirements_for_Success_Criteria
15:20:29 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:20:29 <Zakim> Present: shawn, allanj
15:20:49 <laura> present+ Laura
15:20:55 <JohnRochford> Andrew: We are workiing on what the acceptance criteria are for SC
15:21:02 <shawn> present+ AWK, JohnRochford, Laura, Scott McMormack, Wayne
15:21:08 <allanj> present+ Andrew
15:21:15 <allanj> present+ Wayne
15:21:28 <allanj> Present+ John, Scott
15:22:20 <JohnRochford> Andrew: We will be wanting TF members to be able to help engage and advocate for good wording for SC
15:24:58 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
15:25:04 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Requirements_for_Success_Criteria
15:25:04 <JohnRochford> Jim: Important criterion is to structure statement so answer is binary: true/false.
15:25:15 <JohnRochford> statement = SC
15:26:23 <JohnRochford> Andrew: No decisions made on phone calls, but rather via calls for consensus
15:26:52 <allanj> CfC = call for Concensus
15:27:18 <JohnRochford> Andrew: There may be things we can't say because ecosystem and tools are not ready.
15:28:10 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Example = finding your place again after enlargement
15:29:19 <JohnRochford> Andrew: We will be providing "clearer" guidance that TFs can use
15:30:51 <JohnRochford> Jim: In response to Shawn, we don't need to use Wiki - we can go right to GitHub
15:31:49 <JohnRochford> zakim, close item 1
15:31:49 <Zakim> agendum 1, ​ create process for proposing and revising SCs, closed
15:31:50 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:31:50 <Zakim> 2. ​ ​review questions to ask about modifying/creating SC [from allanj]
15:31:57 <allanj> ​http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
15:33:00 <JohnRochford> Jim: Shawn created a new Git instance with Wayne's proposed SCs
15:33:22 <shawn> s/instance with Wayne's proposed SCs/instance for SCs/
15:33:45 <JohnRochford> ?
15:34:15 <Wayne> zakim, open item 2
15:34:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "​ ​review questions to ask about modifying/creating SC" taken up [from allanj]
15:34:17 <JohnRochford> zakim, open item 2
15:34:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "​ ​review questions to ask about modifying/creating SC" taken up [from allanj]
15:34:26 <allanj> Current SC
15:34:28 <allanj> 1. is there a WCAG SC that meets the need?
15:34:29 <allanj> 2. does the SC need to be raised a level (or 2), e.g. from AAA to AA?
15:34:31 <allanj> 3. does the SC need modification? (modification must meet WCAG Acceptance
15:34:32 <allanj> Criteria)
15:34:34 <allanj> 4. do we need to create a new SC?
15:34:35 <allanj> New SC
15:34:37 <allanj> 1. Is it possible to write an SC for WCAG or do we save this need/SC for
15:34:38 <allanj> WCAG.next
15:34:40 <allanj> 2. Is the new SC worded as a true/false statement?
15:34:41 <allanj> 3. Is the new SC a statement of "what is" - when the statement is true?
15:34:43 <allanj> then you have met the SC.
15:36:34 <JohnRochford> Jim: One issue to consider is whether or not an SC should be deferred to WCAG Next
15:36:47 <ScottM> seems good to me
15:37:06 <laura> +1
15:38:32 <JohnRochford> Andrew: Can the WCAG Next consideration be step 1 of the process to create an SC?
15:39:10 <Wayne> + to 2 lists
15:39:22 <JohnRochford> Andrew: We could divide an SC into to lists: what we can address today and what we can address later
15:39:28 <JohnRochford> to = two
15:39:35 <JohnRochford> two lists
15:40:00 <Wayne> q+
15:40:49 <allanj> ack w
15:41:54 <shawn> q+ to say 1. cautious about putting things off, 2. like writing what need now, even if some not do-able yet - provides info for future
15:42:20 <JohnRochford> Wayne: We could focus on the content level and content-related accessibility issues.
15:42:48 <allanj> ja: we don't have to totally defer to 3.0, can make minor modifications for 2.1, then in 3.0 do it totally.
15:45:30 <JohnRochford> Andrew: We should focus on end-user needs and what is achievable by authors, and not be constrained by current-technology limitations.
15:45:52 <Wayne> It seems likely that 80% or what we need for customization is possible with HTML. If others can only support 20% of this can we call these accessible, or should we simply declare that an accessible alternative should be used.
15:46:00 <shawn> ack me
15:46:00 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say 1. cautious about putting things off, 2. like writing what need now, even if some not do-able yet - provides info for future
15:48:20 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Developers use unneccessary techniques to structure a page, for example, that interfere with accessibility.
15:48:22 <ScottM> We need to make sure our efforts don't end up AAA
15:49:00 <allanj> +1 scott
15:49:18 <JohnRochford> +1 Scott
15:49:34 <Wayne> +1
15:50:03 <JohnRochford> Shawn: We could write up stuff we can't do now but can do later.
15:50:09 <allanj> zakim, make minutes
15:50:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', allanj
15:50:20 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:51:22 <JohnRochford> +1 to 2-lists idea
15:52:49 <JohnRochford> Question for Jim: should I still scribe given it looks to me that you just generated the minutes?
15:53:34 <shawn> s/Question for Jim: should I still scribe given it looks to me that you just generated the minutes?/
15:53:40 <shawn> s/We could write up stuff we can't do now but can do later./
15:54:38 <laura> scribe: Laura
15:55:10 <laura> zakuim, open item 3
15:55:34 <laura> Zakim, open item 3
15:55:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "review SC for User Need 3.1.2" taken up [from allanj]
15:55:46 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/2
15:55:47 <shawn> https://w3c.github.io/low-vision-SC/GapAnalysis-SC.html
15:57:41 <allanj> be right there
15:58:30 <allanj> s/be right there/
15:58:58 <allanj> q+
15:59:39 <laura> Shawn: Thinks this is less than we want.
16:00:57 <laura> Jim: Attacking piece meal. then we can merge.
16:03:56 <laura> Jim: is wording okay?
16:04:25 <laura> wayne: can  wordsmith on second pass
16:05:49 <allanj> ja: is 200% sacrosanct or open to change
16:06:08 <laura> AWK: can  increase requirement but not decrease it.
16:11:41 <ScottM> can we change to /at least/ 200%
16:12:40 <allanj> increase to the limits of browser zoom
16:13:13 <allanj> wayne: 4 or 500%, technology can do this.
16:13:24 <laura> wayne: 400 or 500% is achievable
16:14:40 <Wayne> +1
16:14:53 <Wayne> +1 to scott
16:15:41 <laura> Jim: propose increase to the level of browser zoom.
16:17:03 <laura> wayne: g legge recommended 1100 percent
16:18:13 <allanj> minimum characters on page in order to read is 5, or user can't remember what they read
16:18:16 <laura> LC: if we can document it. Let’s go with 1000%
16:20:11 <allanj> current: Text can be resized without assistive technology up to 200 percent in a way that does not require the user to scroll horizontally to read a line of text on a full-screen window.
16:20:44 <laura> wayne: pages have to be re-organizable.
16:21:31 <allanj> shawn: uni-directional scrolling, not horizontal or vertical. and need to define uni-directional
16:22:23 <allanj> proposed: Text can be resized without assistive technology up to 1100 percent in a way that does not require bi-directional scrolling to read a line of text on a full-screen window.
16:22:45 <laura> +1
16:22:54 <Wayne> +1
16:23:08 <allanj> Jim will find research to cite for this
16:24:31 <allanj> shawn: keep hear developers say meeting 200% is the hardest SC to meet.
16:25:08 <allanj> ... need to make it clear in the Understanding doc, that you need reflow, rewrap, single column
16:25:26 <laura>  Shawn: we will make to make it clear in the understanding doc about reflow etc.
16:26:02 <allanj> Psychophysics of reading--I. Normal vision. Legge GE, Pelli DG, Rubin GS, Schleske MM Vision Res. 1985; 25(2):239-52.
16:26:32 <allanj> Effects of Word Width and Word Length on Optimal Character Size for Reading of Horizontally Scrolling Japanese Words http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4754429/
16:27:42 <laura> Shawn: we have the research page
16:27:46 <allanj> add these to general research page, and include in the SC, pull direct quote with citation
16:29:39 <laura> Shawn: separate issues for each bullet.
16:30:40 <laura> Jim: have a good weekend folks
16:30:58 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:31:08 <laura> tackbot, end meeting
16:31:15 <laura>  trackbot, end meeting
16:31:15 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:31:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jim, Wayne, shawn, Laura, Scott, allanj, AWK, JohnRochford, McMormack, Andrew
16:31:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:31:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:31:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:31:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items