16:26:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:26:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-aria-irc
16:26:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:26:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:26:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:26:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:26:48 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2016
16:26:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:27:31 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jun/0099.html
16:27:36 <MichaelC> chair: MichaelC
16:28:04 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:28:09 <MichaelC> agenda+ Decisions from last week
16:28:09 <MichaelC> agenda+ ACTION-2067 Write text to state the order of aria-owns ids wrt. the dom child order and sequential aria-owns ids
16:28:09 <MichaelC> agenda+ Automated testing
16:28:09 <MichaelC> agenda+ Other open issues and actions
16:28:09 <MichaelC> agenda+ Children presentational redux
16:28:11 <MichaelC> agenda+ Approval to publish ARIA 1.1 Working Draft?
16:28:13 <MichaelC> agenda+ AOB
16:28:28 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich, Léonie, JamesN
16:30:10 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:30:48 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
16:31:04 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:31:10 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC, Janina
16:34:08 <MichaelC> present+ JF
16:34:08 <JF> JF has joined #aria
16:34:21 <JF> Present+ JF
16:35:53 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:35:58 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:36:15 <joanie> q+
16:36:23 <JF> agenda?
16:37:08 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:37:09 <fesch> mc: we are still getting comments on CfCs but I think they passed, Rich will take up
16:37:27 <MichaelC> present+ Cynthia
16:37:44 <janina_> present+ janina
16:37:50 <MichaelC> ack j
16:37:52 <fesch> mc: any comments on CFCs?
16:38:33 <fesch> jd: I don't understand what Rich's concern of password role is.... so it seems like we should not commit the password changes
16:39:14 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Apr/0032.html
16:39:29 <fesch> jd: not sure what to do with CfC for aria-keyshortcuts - not sure whether to commit or not
16:40:02 <fesch> mc: wait until Rich is back for clarification
16:41:25 <fesch> mc: as far as password.... Rich mentions that we might change in ARIA 2.0.... don't have a problem with going ahead with commit on that... but you can wait on Rich if you want
16:41:38 <fesch> mc: will put on list to ask Rich...
16:42:00 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:42:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Decisions from last week" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:42:32 <fesch> zakim, close this item
16:42:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
16:42:33 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:42:33 <Zakim> 2. ACTION-2067 Write text to state the order of aria-owns ids wrt. the dom child order and sequential aria-owns ids [from MichaelC]
16:42:36 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:42:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-2067 Write text to state the order of aria-owns ids wrt. the dom child order and sequential aria-owns ids" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:42:41 <MichaelC> action-2067?
16:42:41 <trackbot> action-2067 -- James Nurthen to Write text to state the order of aria-owns ids wrt. the dom child order and sequential aria-owns ids -- due 2016-05-19 -- OPEN
16:42:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2067
16:42:45 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:43:00 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016May/0159.html
16:43:09 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:43:14 <fesch> mc: James N isn't here,  did submit on list
16:43:33 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016May/0190.html
16:43:38 <fesch> js: I responded and he responded back
16:44:09 <fesch> js: James hasn't responded back ....
16:44:46 <fesch> js: you could add aria-owns and the order didn't matter, now it says SHOULD and the order may matter
16:45:17 <fesch> mc: James said he wouldn't make it a RFC SHOULD will reword
16:45:27 <fesch> js: changes will require tests...
16:46:16 <fesch> mc: we suggests a change ...
16:46:50 <fesch> discussion on text...
16:47:07 <clown> If the DOM children should not be first then they should also be listed in aria-owns in the correct order.
16:48:00 <fesch> js: the scenario is a mix of DOM children and aria-owns children...
16:48:14 <fesch> mc: we avoid a lower case should ....
16:48:53 <fesch> js: we could propose something and ask him...
16:49:26 <fesch> mc: if he didn't like the text and we did a CfC he would have a week
16:49:37 <fesch> jd: I can create a branch for the changes...
16:51:29 <fesch>  mc: are people comfortable with putting the change in a branch and get email confemation
16:52:48 <fesch> RESOLUTION: accept JamesN proposal modulo discussed wording changes to remove a non-RFC2119 ¨should¨, which will be done in a branch for review and confirmation in the CfC
16:52:56 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:52:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Automated testing" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:53:25 <fesch> cs: can we do it later?
16:53:30 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:53:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, fesch
16:53:45 <fesch> zakim, take up item 4
16:53:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Other open issues and actions" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:54:25 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/17
16:56:28 <fesch> js: last week Joanie and Matt discussed changes to Matt's text....
16:56:43 <fesch> action-2039
16:56:43 <trackbot> action-2039 -- Matthew King to Update definition of aria-autocomplete -- due 2016-03-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:56:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2039
16:57:01 <fesch> jd: I thought it went out for CfC
16:57:52 <fesch> jd: need to leave action open until I merge
16:58:01 <fesch> action-2044
16:58:01 <trackbot> action-2044 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Separate out text from role="presentation/none" so that a single location may be referenced in core-aam. -- due 2016-04-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:58:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2044
16:58:56 <fesch> jd: I remember several concerns raised, leave open
16:59:15 <fesch> js: I thought this one got through CfC...
16:59:24 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016May/0043.html
17:00:38 <fesch> mc: will talk with Rich about CfC format
17:00:54 <fesch> jd: I thought folks had problem with the text
17:01:55 <fesch> action-2068
17:01:55 <trackbot> action-2068 -- Michael Cooper to Address issue 1006 -- due 2016-05-19 -- OPEN
17:01:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2068
17:04:10 <fesch> bg: primary concern with treeitem and menuitem roles - where you can have supporting children with the same role
17:04:39 <fesch> bg: doesn't differentiate between supported and not supported roles
17:05:11 <fesch> bg: this is only and issue for a couple of the roles
17:05:44 <MichaelC> close action-2068
17:05:44 <trackbot> Closed action-2068.
17:06:05 <fesch> action-2069
17:06:05 <trackbot> action-2069 -- Matthew King to Write proposal to resolve issue 1028 for the separator role -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:06:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2069
17:06:42 <fesch> js: we talked about it on Tuesdays call, we assume it is done
17:07:02 <fesch> jd: don't recall seeing a CfC for it
17:07:25 <fesch> mc: putting on Rich list
17:07:50 <fesch> action-2082
17:07:50 <trackbot> action-2082 -- Michael Cooper to Investigate having regular links to apg for each aria feature -- due 2016-06-09 -- OPEN
17:07:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2082
17:08:09 <fesch> mc: this is editorial, propose putting off for 3 months
17:08:09 <MichaelC> action-2082 due 3 months
17:08:09 <trackbot> Set action-2082 Investigate having regular links to apg for each aria feature due date to 2016-09-16.
17:08:49 <fesch> zakim, close this tiem
17:08:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close this tiem', fesch
17:08:57 <fesch> zakim, close this item
17:08:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:08:58 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:58 <Zakim> 3. Automated testing [from MichaelC]
17:09:05 <fesch> zakim, take up item 6
17:09:05 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Approval to publish ARIA 1.1 Working Draft?" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:10:00 <fesch> mc: being careful on working draft - want it to be pseudo last call
17:10:20 <ShaneM> my stuff is done AFAIK
17:10:33 <fesch> jd: I can merge stuff next week
17:10:57 <fesch> mc: we have a week CfC...
17:11:48 <joanie> s/I can merge stuff next week/I can prioritize focusing on merging and getting the spec out the door next week/
17:12:00 <fesch> mc: are folks comfortable with approving to publish a pseudo last call with ARIA 1.1 in it's current form
17:12:05 <fesch> +1
17:12:26 <JF> +1
17:12:31 <fesch> js: when does the CfC go out?
17:12:56 <fesch> mc: we want a sense of the working group
17:13:47 <ShaneM> present+ ShaneM
17:13:53 <fesch> bg: children presentational is a really big problem need to get it addressed
17:15:14 <clown> +1
17:15:17 <ShaneM> +1
17:15:19 <joanie> +1
17:15:20 <JF> +1
17:15:20 <fesch> RESOLUTION: WG approves publishing ARIA 1.1 as pseudo-Last Call Working Draft; CfC to go out after Rich returns to give him opportunity to review; may add ednotes about open issues
17:15:30 <fesch> zakim, close item
17:15:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', fesch
17:15:41 <fesch> zakim, close this item
17:15:41 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:15:42 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:42 <Zakim> 3. Automated testing [from MichaelC]
17:16:06 <fesch> zakim, take up item 3
17:16:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Automated testing" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:16:27 <JF> Q+
17:16:33 <fesch> cs: meeting tomorrow to talk about automated testing
17:17:05 <fesch> cs: accProbe.... UIA, next steps... write platform specific piece...
17:17:16 <fesch> cs: and to write a bunch of test cases....
17:17:36 <fesch> cs: should be able to run the tests pretty soon
17:17:52 <fesch> jd: I started the port to my platform
17:18:15 <fesch> cs: keeping meeting small...
17:18:55 <MichaelC> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/ ARIA test list
17:19:00 <fesch> JF: I didn't get an invite and my folks didn't get an invite
17:19:15 <fesch> cs: we can talk more about scoping tasks
17:19:50 <fesch> shane: was just him and a few MS people
17:20:06 <fesch> mc: need to start using test list
17:20:58 <fesch> mc: if you have an interest in testing, make sure you are on the aria-testing email list
17:21:23 <fesch> mc: if you are not on the list and want to be, let me know
17:21:58 <fesch> mc: testing will become a bigger focus going forward
17:22:07 <fesch> zakim, close this tiem
17:22:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close this tiem', fesch
17:22:16 <fesch> zakim, close this item
17:22:16 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, fesch
17:22:23 <JF> ack jf
17:22:44 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:22:44 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Children presentational redux" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:23:08 <joanie> q+
17:23:27 <fesch> mc: do folks want to discuss now, I think it would be useful to discuss when Rich is back
17:23:27 <MichaelC> ack j
17:25:06 <fesch> jd: I looked at code of spinbutton... emailed apple developers.... got email back spin button children are exposed on the Mac (up/down buttons)
17:25:14 <fesch> jd: thinks apple will object
17:25:29 <fesch> cs: I can see that being a pattern
17:25:58 <clown> last week's resolution:  "Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and spinbutton roles that their "children are presentational" status is provisional"
17:26:44 <fesch> mc: we need to get stuff on record...
17:27:01 <fesch> cs: may be waiting for CR
17:27:12 <joanie> q+
17:27:19 <fesch> mc: that is why I would like a pseudo-last call
17:27:23 <MichaelC> ack j
17:27:53 <fesch> jd: I feel strongly enough about this, that I would object
17:28:52 <fesch> mc: we want to get it in the minutes... other folks have gone on record that it should be
17:29:10 <fesch> bg: I put it on list and no one replied to that
17:29:13 <joanie> q+ To say AGAIN that that it should become composite
17:29:29 <fesch> bg: if it is not a composite widget...
17:29:33 <MichaelC> ack j
17:29:33 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say AGAIN that that it should become composite
17:29:43 <fesch> mc: composite is an artifact of our taxonomy
17:30:29 <fesch> jd: I think a spin button is a composite widget is and if we make this change, we make browsers non-compliant
17:30:57 <fesch> bg: we could make it composite...
17:31:43 <fesch> bg: any folks treeitem is undscoverable ...
17:32:16 <fesch> mc: what I hear you saying is AT applies a meaning to composite widget and we did not intend for AT to do that
17:33:04 <fesch> mc: I don't hear opposition to making spinbutton composite... these are both conversations after the spec
17:33:28 <fesch> mc: that is the disconnect - you are trying to normalize and the rest of us are saying why does it matter
17:35:09 <fesch> bg: it might work for spinbutton but the others are more complicated issue and may require change in ATs and not clear how that would work
17:35:22 <fesch> bg: don't think we can do it in the next two weeks
17:35:38 <fesch> bg: important to make clear which rules are supported
17:36:12 <fesch> mc: would you mind taking an action about composite widget...
17:36:22 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:36:29 <joanie> q+ To propose I make spinbutton subclass composite
17:37:33 <fesch> jd: can I make spinbutton a composite widget?
17:37:41 <fesch> bg: I don't oppose that
17:37:44 <MichaelC> action: bryan to propose content for composite role to describe the constraints that have been behind the children-presentational normalization effort
17:37:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2084 - Propose content for composite role to describe the constraints that have been behind the children-presentational normalization effort [on Bryan Garaventa - due 2016-06-23].
17:37:46 <joanie> ack me
17:37:46 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to propose I make spinbutton subclass composite
17:38:10 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-2084 with issue-1006
17:38:10 <trackbot> action-2084 (Propose content for composite role to describe the constraints that have been behind the children-presentational normalization effort) associated with issue-1006.
17:38:35 <fesch> RESOLUTION: make spinbutton composite
17:39:21 <fesch> mc: will still keep editorial note, spinbutton may drop out of the note
17:39:45 <joanie> action joanie to create a branch making spinbutton subclass composite
17:39:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2085 - Create a branch making spinbutton subclass composite [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-06-23].
17:40:00 <fesch> mc: anything else on children presentational for now?
17:40:04 <joanie> trackbot, associate action-2085 with issue-1006
17:40:04 <trackbot> action-2085 (Create a branch making spinbutton subclass composite) associated with issue-1006.
17:40:16 <fesch> mc: any additional agenda?
17:40:28 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:40:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-aria-minutes.html fesch
17:41:23 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
17:41:23 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Michiel_Bijl, fesch, MichaelC, Janina, JF, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cynthia, Bryan_Garaventa, ShaneM
17:41:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:41:25 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
17:41:25 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-aria-actions.rdf :
17:41:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: bryan to propose content for composite role to describe the constraints that have been behind the children-presentational normalization effort [1]
17:41:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-aria-irc#T17-37-44