IRC log of aapi on 2016-06-14

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18:43:23 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-aapi-irc

18:43:25 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

18:43:25 [Zakim]

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18:43:27 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be

18:43:27 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

18:43:28 [trackbot]

Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference

18:43:28 [trackbot]

Date: 14 June 2016

18:43:48 [clown]

chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer

18:43:55 [clown]

agenda: this

18:44:05 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI.

18:44:11 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts.

18:44:18 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts.

18:44:24 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express.

18:44:29 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant.

18:44:35 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces.

18:44:41 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)

18:44:48 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values.

18:44:55 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1732 (Michael) Conformance section for core-aam.

18:45:02 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-2076 (Joseph) MSAA+IA2 mapping of separator when it is a splitter widget between panes.

18:45:08 [clown]

agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23

18:45:14 [clown]

agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA

18:45:21 [clown]

agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA

18:45:27 [clown]

agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26

18:45:32 [clown]

agenda+ be done.

18:59:12 [joanie]

present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

18:59:32 [clown]

present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer

19:01:09 [bgaraventa1979]

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19:01:37 [bgaraventa1979]

present+ Bryan_Garaventa

19:03:08 [clown]

clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 21-Jun-2016, 20:00 UTC)

19:06:40 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:07:12 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 1

19:07:12 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]

19:07:25 [clown]

action-1533?

19:07:25 [trackbot]

action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN

19:07:25 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533

19:08:02 [joanie]

JD: I've set up my Windows 10 laptop and am following the instructions in the repo README.md.

19:08:14 [joanie]

JD: I'm getting errors no matter which set of instructions I follow.

19:08:21 [joanie]

JD: Cynthia, should I ask you or your colleague?

19:08:25 [joanie]

CS: Ask John.

19:08:34 [joanie]

JD: Will do, thanks!

19:08:45 [cyns]

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19:08:46 [joanie]

CS: I think there's a meeting on Thursday morning to discuss testing.

19:09:03 [joanie]

CS: With Jon Gunderson and others, I believe it is at 9AM Pacific time.

19:09:06 [joanie]

JD: Works for me.

19:09:12 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:09:12 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]

19:09:36 [clown]

action-1686?

19:09:36 [trackbot]

action-1686 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis -- due 2015-07-23 -- CLOSED

19:09:36 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1686

19:10:02 [clown]

action-1696?

19:10:02 [trackbot]

action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts -- due 2016-06-14 -- OPEN

19:10:02 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696

19:10:52 [joanie]

JD: I think we are stalled on this.

19:11:12 [joanie]

JS: I raised it again just because you asked to bring it up in a week.

19:11:43 [joanie]

JD: There is a Mozilla work week going on in London.

19:11:51 [joanie]

JD: So Alex and Jamie are busy with that.

19:12:25 [joanie]

JD: And I'm waiting to hear back from Alex.

19:12:53 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:12:53 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]

19:12:58 [clown]

action-1698

19:12:59 [trackbot]

action-1698 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-14 -- OPEN

19:12:59 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698

19:13:06 [joanie]

JD: I'm waiting on this one until I do the mapping for my platform.

19:14:58 [joanie]

JD: As discussed before I want to hear back from Alex.

19:15:20 [joanie]

JD: That said, I won't keep blocking AX API for ATK.

19:15:27 [joanie]

JD: So please make it due next week.

19:15:30 [joanie]

JS: Ok.

19:15:34 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:15:34 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express." taken up [from clown]

19:15:41 [clown]

action-1706?

19:15:41 [trackbot]

action-1706 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

19:15:41 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706

19:15:49 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia gave me a pull request.

19:16:03 [joanie]

JS: I was going to pull it in, but then I heard from Michael.

19:16:25 [joanie]

JS: At tomorrow's meeting, Michael is going to discuss how we officially do pull requests.

19:16:36 [joanie]

JS: So I'm going to wait until tomorrow's meeting.

19:16:49 [joanie]

JS: Then this pull request will be my first try.

19:16:53 [joanie]

Zakim, next item.

19:16:53 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant." taken up [from clown]

19:17:01 [clown]

action-2065?

19:17:01 [trackbot]

action-2065 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add this statement to the core-aam: “user agents are not expected to validate that the active descendant is a descendant of the focused container. “ -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

19:17:01 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2065

19:17:17 [joanie]

JS: While I was away, this action came up.

19:17:22 [joanie]

JS: Cynthia wrote some stuff.

19:17:32 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#document-handling_author-errors

19:17:46 [joanie]

JS: There's a need to add a statement to the Core AAM about user agents not being expect to validate this.

19:18:01 [joanie]

JS: I wrote back that there is already a statement in the Core AAM regarding this.

19:18:07 [joanie]

JS: The URL is above.

19:18:25 [joanie]

JS: In section 6.2 (Joseph reads statement)

19:18:36 [joanie]

JS: The fifth item in the list (Joseph reads it)

19:18:41 [joanie]

JS: Is that sufficient?

19:18:46 [joanie]

CS: Let me read it again.

19:18:59 [clown]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/397

19:19:58 [clown]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/397/commits/698c8c0e42ab40e210dd47a2e9c0329fbb9aeb49

19:20:20 [joanie]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ACTION-2065/aria/aria.html

19:20:38 [clown]

"User agents are not expected to validate that the active descendant is a descendant of the focused container."

19:21:19 [joanie]

CS: What Joseph pasted should be sufficient.

19:21:21 [clown]

https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ACTION-2065/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant

19:21:38 [joanie]

JS: The URL above is where the proposed change is.

19:22:08 [joanie]

CS: While it is somewhat redundant, I think having it here is useful.

19:22:26 [joanie]

CS: When people are thinking about activedescendant, I think they're more likely to look here.

19:22:33 [joanie]

CS: We could link back to the other part.

19:22:38 [joanie]

JS: We could do that.

19:23:33 [joanie]

JS: Anyone else have thoughts on this?

19:23:44 [joanie]

JS: I'm fine with including it twice and also linking to the author error section.

19:23:53 [joanie]

BG: Fine with me.

19:26:02 [joanie]

JD: It might be worth adding a (code) comment by each statement that the text should remain aligned.

19:26:31 [joanie]

JS: It could be an editor's comment (they disappear when you do a snapshot).

19:26:47 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:26:47 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces." taken up [from clown]

19:27:27 [joanie]

JS: Correction. They are still showing up.

19:27:34 [joanie]

JS: I'll ask tomorrow during the editor's call

19:27:40 [joanie]

s/call/call./

19:27:41 [clown]

action-1739?

19:27:41 [trackbot]

action-1739 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN

19:27:41 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739

19:28:09 [joanie]

JS: This action is about the interfaces in ATK/AT-SPI2 that are relevant to roles.

19:28:24 [joanie]

JS: We include them for UIA, but not ATK.

19:28:32 [joanie]

JS: Looking at them, I realized something.

19:29:15 [joanie]

JS: We got rid of the prefixes.

19:29:49 [joanie]

JD: You can do that for everything but hyperlinkimpl, and maybe you can drop that one too.

19:31:17 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:31:17 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)" taken up [from clown]

19:31:23 [joanie]

JS: Rich is not here.

19:31:27 [joanie]

Zakim, close this item

19:31:27 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

19:31:28 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

19:31:28 [Zakim]

8. ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values. [from clown]

19:31:30 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:31:30 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values." taken up [from clown]

19:31:37 [clown]

action-2056?

19:31:37 [trackbot]

action-2056 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Coordinate the mappings for the various AAPIs of the enumerated aria-haspopup values -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN

19:31:37 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2056

19:31:50 [joanie]

JS: I have incorporated Rich's mapping for IA2 and ATK.

19:31:57 [joanie]

JS: I think I have UIA's in place as well.

19:32:08 [joanie]

JS: I wanted to show Rich the changes and verify they are correct.

19:32:23 [joanie]

JS: But while we're here, the action got assigned to Joanie for the AX API mappings.

19:32:28 [joanie]

JS: Touching base.

19:32:32 [joanie]

JD: No update.

19:32:41 [joanie]

JD: I will add it to my todo list.

19:33:06 [joanie]

JS: When Rich is back I'll probably bring it up again to verify the changes.

19:33:25 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:33:25 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "ACTION-1732 (Michael) Conformance section for core-aam." taken up [from clown]

19:33:30 [clown]

action-1732?

19:33:30 [trackbot]

action-1732 -- Michael Cooper to Work on conformance section for mappings (note there is a section, but change id=conformance so respec picks up) -- due 2015-10-14 -- OPEN

19:33:30 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1732

19:33:38 [joanie]

JS: I was doing some triaging of all the actions during the past week.

19:33:45 [joanie]

JS: I came across action 1732.

19:33:52 [joanie]

JS: This has to be in the document apparently.

19:33:58 [joanie]

JS: It's assigned to Michael.

19:34:07 [joanie]

JS: I emailed him. He replied that he has notes on it.

19:34:15 [joanie]

JS: Michael will add it soon.

19:34:31 [joanie]

JS: Due date is October 14, 2015.

19:34:45 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:34:45 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "ACTION-2076 (Joseph) MSAA+IA2 mapping of separator when it is a splitter widget between panes." taken up [from clown]

19:34:53 [clown]

action-2076?

19:34:53 [trackbot]

action-2076 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to MSAA/IA2 mapping of role="separator", when it is a widget (window splitter). -- due 2016-06-02 -- OPEN

19:34:53 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2076

19:34:56 [joanie]

JS: I need some advice on this one.

19:35:12 [joanie]

JS: I was supposed to research this.

19:35:30 [joanie]

JS: Sometimes it's not interactive; sometimes it is (like when it's a window splitter).

19:35:35 [joanie]

JS: I went digging around.

19:35:41 [clown]

"The object is used to visually divide a space into two regions, such as a separator menu item or a bar that divides split panes within a window"

19:35:51 [joanie]

JS: I got some documentation on the ROLE_SYSTEM_SEPARATOR.

19:36:17 [joanie]

JS: (Reads above)

19:36:25 [joanie]

JS: The role is the same for both types.

19:36:31 [clown]

IA2_ROLE_SPLIT_PANE

19:36:40 [joanie]

JS: IA2 doesn't have a role for separator at all.

19:36:42 [clown]

"A split pane. A specialized panel that presents two other panels at the same time. Between the two panels is a divider the user can manipulate to make one panel larger and the other panel smaller"

19:36:50 [joanie]

JS: There is a split pane (defined above).

19:36:59 [joanie]

JD: We have that in ATK/AT-SPI2.

19:37:09 [joanie]

JS: So the split pane is the whole thing; not the splitter itself.

19:37:33 [clown]

issue-1029?

19:37:33 [trackbot]

issue-1029 -- Add mappings for interactive separator (window splitter). -- open

19:37:33 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1029

19:37:36 [joanie]

JS: Ideas, or anyone know more?

19:37:42 [joanie]

CS: Is there an issue for this?

19:37:51 [joanie]

JS: Issue-1029.

19:37:54 [clown]

action-2074

19:37:54 [trackbot]

action-2074 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to UIA mapping of role="separator", when it is a widget (window splitter). -- due 2016-06-02 -- OPEN

19:37:54 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2074

19:38:06 [joanie]

CS: Action-2074 is for UIA.

19:38:16 [joanie]

JS: You said control type of thumb.

19:38:24 [joanie]

CS: I knew I found something.

19:38:34 [joanie]

JS: Do we have a thumb in MSAA?

19:39:06 [joanie]

JS: Would you be fine with "thumb" Bryan?

19:39:17 [joanie]

BG: Oh goodness.

19:40:05 [clown]

scribenick: clown

19:40:37 [clown]

JD: If a user puts focus on a splitter, and hear's "thumb" or some such, and gives a percentage, isn't that enough?

19:40:46 [clown]

BG: Isn't it a separator role on windows?

19:41:20 [clown]

JD: My platform and a native app, there is a keyboard shortcut to put focus on the window spitter.

19:41:45 [clown]

JD: Orca annouces it, and as the user moves it, orca announces the percentages.

19:42:30 [clown]

JD: It should implement the value interface, and SRs can speak the changes in value.

19:42:50 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:43:08 [joanie]

BG: During the APG call, we were trying to figure out the whole separator pattern thing.

19:43:32 [joanie]

BG: There is no way to distinguish between the separator element (static) and interactive separators.

19:43:53 [joanie]

BG: It's not clear in the implementation how you're supposed to distinguish these.

19:44:03 [joanie]

BG: There is no way to convey what is being represented there.

19:44:12 [joanie]

BG: In a non-visual way.

19:44:50 [joanie]

CS: Looking at the UIA documentation, the reason I chose thumb is that the docs specifically state that this role should be used for window resizers.

19:44:59 [joanie]

JS: What do you call the thumb on a scrollbar?

19:45:12 [joanie]

CS: I think it's part of the scrollbar. But let me look.

19:45:52 [joanie]

CS: Yes, thumb is used in scrollbar as well.

19:46:07 [joanie]

CS: Sliders use thumbs as well.

19:46:16 [joanie]

JS: That's what I remember from GUI toolkits.

19:46:23 [joanie]

CS: We don't have a splitter control type.

19:46:34 [joanie]

CS: But thumb says it can be used for window resizing.

19:46:47 [joanie]

BG: Understanding the use cases and how to program them would be helpful.

19:47:02 [joanie]

BG: Are we talking about tabbing to a container which is resizable using the arrow keys?

19:47:08 [joanie]

CS: That's one possibility.

19:47:25 [joanie]

CS: Another is like in Outlook when we have multiple panes dividing the window.

19:47:38 [joanie]

JS: In HTML4... was it a frameset?

19:48:24 [joanie]

JS: For lack of a better word, this thing is a separator that divides a window into two parts.

19:48:37 [joanie]

JS: You can resize the panes without resizing the window itself.

19:49:00 [joanie]

CS: And some apps update the layout depending on the width/height of the pane.

19:49:12 [joanie]

CS: For instance, single line versus multiple line.

19:49:23 [joanie]

JS: Dojo has something like this.

19:49:36 [joanie]

JS: You can Tab to it and then resize the panes with the arrow keys.

19:49:54 [joanie]

BG: Anyone have a web example I can look at?

19:50:00 [joanie]

JS: Let me look for Dojo's.

19:50:20 [joanie]

CS: I think outlook.com has similar functionality.

19:50:36 [joanie]

BG: Having a concrete usecase will help.

19:50:46 [joanie]

JS: The Dojo example says it's deprecated.

19:51:01 [joanie]

JS: And this doesn't seem to be keyboard accessible.

19:52:55 [clown]

scribenick: clown

19:53:21 [clown]

JD: A window splitter expoeses the focusable state; and HR does not.

19:53:41 [clown]

JD: a window splitter exposes a value interface; an HR doesn't

19:54:25 [clown]

JD: Isn't that enough to make the distinction between an interactive window splitter and a static separator (HR).

19:55:02 [clown]

action-2069?

19:55:02 [trackbot]

action-2069 -- Matthew King to Write proposal to resolve issue 1028 for the separator role -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

19:55:02 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2069

19:55:34 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:55:47 [joanie]

JS: Supposedly we have a pending CfC for action-2069.

19:56:17 [joanie]

JS: He's indicated that this is largely editorial, and the changes are targeted mainly towards authors.

19:56:27 [joanie]

JS: (Quotes from text from Matt)

19:56:41 [joanie]

JS: It sounds very similar to what Joanie said.

19:57:36 [joanie]

JS: So maybe nothing needs to be done. Well....

19:57:50 [joanie]

JS: There may still need to be mappings.

19:59:27 [joanie]

JD: There will need to be mappings.

19:59:54 [joanie]

JD: In Cynthia's case (for UIA), if it has focusability and values, it's a thumb.

20:00:08 [joanie]

JD: In my case, it needs to implement the value interface.

20:03:53 [joanie]

Zakim, part

20:03:53 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa

20:03:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #aapi

20:04:01 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop

20:04:51 [joanie]

present+ Cynthia_Shelly

20:05:17 [joanie]

RRSAgent, make minutes

20:05:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-aapi-minutes.html joanie

20:05:43 [joanie]

scribeOptions: -final

20:05:50 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop