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18:43:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-aapi-irc
18:43:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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18:43:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:43:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:43:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:43:28 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2016
18:43:48 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:43:55 <clown> agenda: this
18:44:05 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI.
18:44:11 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts.
18:44:18 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts.
18:44:24 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express.
18:44:29 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant.
18:44:35 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces.
18:44:41 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)
18:44:48 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values.
18:44:55 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1732 (Michael) Conformance section for core-aam.
18:45:02 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-2076 (Joseph) MSAA+IA2 mapping of separator when it is a splitter widget between panes.
18:45:08 <clown> agenda+ Triage actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23
18:45:14 <clown> agenda+ Triage core-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Core%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:45:21 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname-aam bugzillas: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=AccName%20AAM&product=ARIA
18:45:27 <clown> agenda+ Triage accname actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/26
18:45:32 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:59:12 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:59:32 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:01:09 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:01:37 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:03:08 <clown> clown has changed the topic to: WebEx Access Code 641 707 405 (Next meeting 21-Jun-2016, 20:00 UTC)
19:06:40 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:07:12 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:07:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1533 (Joanie) Periodic checkin: Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]
19:07:25 <clown> action-1533?
19:07:25 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Implement Webdriver automated accessibilty testing framework for testing ARIA in ATK/AT-SPI -- due 2016-05-24 -- OPEN
19:07:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1533
19:08:02 <joanie> JD: I've set up my Windows 10 laptop and am following the instructions in the repo README.md.
19:08:14 <joanie> JD: I'm getting errors no matter which set of instructions I follow.
19:08:21 <joanie> JD: Cynthia, should I ask you or your colleague?
19:08:25 <joanie> CS: Ask John.
19:08:34 <joanie> JD: Will do, thanks!
19:08:45 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:08:46 <joanie> CS: I think there's a meeting on Thursday morning to discuss testing.
19:09:03 <joanie> CS: With Jon Gunderson and others, I believe it is at 9AM Pacific time.
19:09:06 <joanie> JD: Works for me.
19:09:12 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:09:12 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1696 (Joanie) ATK/AT-SPI and IA2 mappings of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]
19:09:36 <clown> action-1686?
19:09:36 <trackbot> action-1686 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis -- due 2015-07-23 -- CLOSED
19:09:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1686
19:10:02 <clown> action-1696?
19:10:02 <trackbot> action-1696 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts -- due 2016-06-14 -- OPEN
19:10:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1696
19:10:52 <joanie> JD: I think we are stalled on this.
19:11:12 <joanie> JS: I raised it again just because you asked to bring it up in a week.
19:11:43 <joanie> JD: There is a Mozilla work week going on in London.
19:11:51 <joanie> JD: So Alex and Jamie are busy with that.
19:12:25 <joanie> JD: And I'm waiting to hear back from Alex.
19:12:53 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:12:53 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1698 (Joanie) AXAPI mapping of aria-keyshortcuts." taken up [from clown]
19:12:58 <clown> action-1698
19:12:59 <trackbot> action-1698 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose AXAPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts -- due 2016-06-14 -- OPEN
19:12:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1698
19:13:06 <joanie> JD: I'm waiting on this one until I do the mapping for my platform.
19:14:58 <joanie> JD: As discussed before I want to hear back from Alex.
19:15:20 <joanie> JD: That said, I won't keep blocking AX API for ATK.
19:15:27 <joanie> JD: So please make it due next week.
19:15:30 <joanie> JS: Ok.
19:15:34 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:15:34 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1706 (Joseph) Statement regarding deprecation of UIA Express." taken up [from clown]
19:15:41 <clown> action-1706?
19:15:41 <trackbot> action-1706 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-aam, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2016-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:15:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1706
19:15:49 <joanie> JS: Cynthia gave me a pull request.
19:16:03 <joanie> JS: I was going to pull it in, but then I heard from Michael.
19:16:25 <joanie> JS: At tomorrow's meeting, Michael is going to discuss how we officially do pull requests.
19:16:36 <joanie> JS: So I'm going to wait until tomorrow's meeting.
19:16:49 <joanie> JS: Then this pull request will be my first try.
19:16:53 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:16:53 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-2065 (Joseph/Cynthia) Validation of aria-activedescendant." taken up [from clown]
19:17:01 <clown> action-2065?
19:17:01 <trackbot> action-2065 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add this statement to the core-aam: “user agents are not expected to validate that the active descendant is a descendant of the focused container. “ -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:17:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2065
19:17:17 <joanie> JS: While I was away, this action came up.
19:17:22 <joanie> JS: Cynthia wrote some stuff.
19:17:32 <clown> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#document-handling_author-errors
19:17:46 <joanie> JS: There's a need to add a statement to the Core AAM about user agents not being expect to validate this.
19:18:01 <joanie> JS: I wrote back that there is already a statement in the Core AAM regarding this.
19:18:07 <joanie> JS: The URL is above.
19:18:25 <joanie> JS: In section 6.2 (Joseph reads statement)
19:18:36 <joanie> JS: The fifth item in the list (Joseph reads it)
19:18:41 <joanie> JS: Is that sufficient?
19:18:46 <joanie> CS: Let me read it again.
19:18:59 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/397
19:19:58 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/397/commits/698c8c0e42ab40e210dd47a2e9c0329fbb9aeb49
19:20:20 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ACTION-2065/aria/aria.html
19:20:38 <clown> "User agents are not expected to validate that the active descendant is a descendant of the focused container."
19:21:19 <joanie> CS: What Joseph pasted should be sufficient.
19:21:21 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ACTION-2065/core-aam/core-aam.html#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
19:21:38 <joanie> JS: The URL above is where the proposed change is.
19:22:08 <joanie> CS: While it is somewhat redundant, I think having it here is useful.
19:22:26 <joanie> CS: When people are thinking about activedescendant, I think they're more likely to look here.
19:22:33 <joanie> CS: We could link back to the other part.
19:22:38 <joanie> JS: We could do that.
19:23:33 <joanie> JS: Anyone else have thoughts on this?
19:23:44 <joanie> JS: I'm fine with including it twice and also linking to the author error section.
19:23:53 <joanie> BG: Fine with me.
19:26:02 <joanie> JD: It might be worth adding a (code) comment by each statement that the text should remain aligned.
19:26:31 <joanie> JS: It could be an editor's comment (they disappear when you do a snapshot).
19:26:47 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:26:47 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1739 (Joanie) Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces." taken up [from clown]
19:27:27 <joanie> JS: Correction. They are still showing up.
19:27:34 <joanie> JS: I'll ask tomorrow during the editor's call
19:27:40 <joanie> s/call/call./
19:27:41 <clown> action-1739?
19:27:41 <trackbot> action-1739 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide all the missing atk/at-spi2 interfaces for joseph -- due 2016-07-05 -- OPEN
19:27:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1739
19:28:09 <joanie> JS: This action is about the interfaces in ATK/AT-SPI2 that are relevant to roles.
19:28:24 <joanie> JS: We include them for UIA, but not ATK.
19:28:32 <joanie> JS: Looking at them, I realized something.
19:29:15 <joanie> JS: We got rid of the prefixes.
19:29:49 <joanie> JD: You can do that for everything but hyperlinkimpl, and maybe you can drop that one too.
19:31:17 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:31:17 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-2022 (Rich) Followup with Alex about IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK (obsolete?)" taken up [from clown]
19:31:23 <joanie> JS: Rich is not here.
19:31:27 <joanie> Zakim, close this item
19:31:27 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
19:31:28 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:31:28 <Zakim> 8. ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values. [from clown]
19:31:30 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:31:30 <Zakim> agendum 8. "ACTION-2056 (Rich/Joseph/Joanie) Mappings for new aria-haspopup values." taken up [from clown]
19:31:37 <clown> action-2056?
19:31:37 <trackbot> action-2056 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Coordinate the mappings for the various AAPIs of the enumerated aria-haspopup values -- due 2016-06-07 -- OPEN
19:31:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2056
19:31:50 <joanie> JS: I have incorporated Rich's mapping for IA2 and ATK.
19:31:57 <joanie> JS: I think I have UIA's in place as well.
19:32:08 <joanie> JS: I wanted to show Rich the changes and verify they are correct.
19:32:23 <joanie> JS: But while we're here, the action got assigned to Joanie for the AX API mappings.
19:32:28 <joanie> JS: Touching base.
19:32:32 <joanie> JD: No update.
19:32:41 <joanie> JD: I will add it to my todo list.
19:33:06 <joanie> JS: When Rich is back I'll probably bring it up again to verify the changes.
19:33:25 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:33:25 <Zakim> agendum 9. "ACTION-1732 (Michael) Conformance section for core-aam." taken up [from clown]
19:33:30 <clown> action-1732?
19:33:30 <trackbot> action-1732 -- Michael Cooper to Work on conformance section for mappings (note there is a section, but change id=conformance so respec picks up) -- due 2015-10-14 -- OPEN
19:33:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1732
19:33:38 <joanie> JS: I was doing some triaging of all the actions during the past week.
19:33:45 <joanie> JS: I came across action 1732.
19:33:52 <joanie> JS: This has to be in the document apparently.
19:33:58 <joanie> JS: It's assigned to Michael.
19:34:07 <joanie> JS: I emailed him. He replied that he has notes on it.
19:34:15 <joanie> JS: Michael will add it soon.
19:34:31 <joanie> JS: Due date is October 14, 2015.
19:34:45 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:34:45 <Zakim> agendum 10. "ACTION-2076 (Joseph) MSAA+IA2 mapping of separator when it is a splitter widget between panes." taken up [from clown]
19:34:53 <clown> action-2076?
19:34:53 <trackbot> action-2076 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to MSAA/IA2 mapping of role="separator", when it is a widget (window splitter). -- due 2016-06-02 -- OPEN
19:34:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2076
19:34:56 <joanie> JS: I need some advice on this one.
19:35:12 <joanie> JS: I was supposed to research this.
19:35:30 <joanie> JS: Sometimes it's not interactive; sometimes it is (like when it's a window splitter).
19:35:35 <joanie> JS: I went digging around.
19:35:41 <clown> "The object is used to visually divide a space into two regions, such as a separator menu item or a bar that divides split panes within a window"
19:35:51 <joanie> JS: I got some documentation on the ROLE_SYSTEM_SEPARATOR.
19:36:17 <joanie> JS: (Reads above)
19:36:25 <joanie> JS: The role is the same for both types.
19:36:31 <clown> IA2_ROLE_SPLIT_PANE
19:36:40 <joanie> JS: IA2 doesn't have a role for separator at all.
19:36:42 <clown> "A split pane. A specialized panel that presents two other panels at the same time. Between the two panels is a divider the user can manipulate to make one panel larger and the other panel smaller"
19:36:50 <joanie> JS: There is a split pane (defined above).
19:36:59 <joanie> JD: We have that in ATK/AT-SPI2.
19:37:09 <joanie> JS: So the split pane is the whole thing; not the splitter itself.
19:37:33 <clown> issue-1029?
19:37:33 <trackbot> issue-1029 -- Add mappings for interactive separator (window splitter). -- open
19:37:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1029
19:37:36 <joanie> JS: Ideas, or anyone know more?
19:37:42 <joanie> CS: Is there an issue for this?
19:37:51 <joanie> JS: Issue-1029.
19:37:54 <clown> action-2074
19:37:54 <trackbot> action-2074 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to UIA mapping of role="separator", when it is a widget (window splitter). -- due 2016-06-02 -- OPEN
19:37:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2074
19:38:06 <joanie> CS: Action-2074 is for UIA.
19:38:16 <joanie> JS: You said control type of thumb.
19:38:24 <joanie> CS: I knew I found something.
19:38:34 <joanie> JS: Do we have a thumb in MSAA?
19:39:06 <joanie> JS: Would you be fine with "thumb" Bryan?
19:39:17 <joanie> BG: Oh goodness.
19:40:05 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:40:37 <clown> JD:  If a user puts focus on a splitter, and hear's "thumb" or some such, and gives a percentage, isn't that enough?
19:40:46 <clown> BG:  Isn't it a separator role on windows?
19:41:20 <clown> JD:  My platform and a native app, there is a keyboard shortcut to put focus on the window spitter.
19:41:45 <clown> JD:  Orca annouces it, and as the user moves it, orca announces the percentages.
19:42:30 <clown> JD:  It should implement the value interface, and SRs can speak the changes in value.
19:42:50 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:43:08 <joanie> BG: During the APG call, we were trying to figure out the whole separator pattern thing.
19:43:32 <joanie> BG: There is no way to distinguish between the separator element (static) and interactive separators.
19:43:53 <joanie> BG: It's not clear in the implementation how you're supposed to distinguish these.
19:44:03 <joanie> BG: There is no way to convey what is being represented there.
19:44:12 <joanie> BG: In a non-visual way.
19:44:50 <joanie> CS: Looking at the UIA documentation, the reason I chose thumb is that the docs specifically state that this role should be used for window resizers.
19:44:59 <joanie> JS: What do you call the thumb on a scrollbar?
19:45:12 <joanie> CS: I think it's part of the scrollbar. But let me look.
19:45:52 <joanie> CS: Yes, thumb is used in scrollbar as well.
19:46:07 <joanie> CS: Sliders use thumbs as well.
19:46:16 <joanie> JS: That's what I remember from GUI toolkits.
19:46:23 <joanie> CS: We don't have a splitter control type.
19:46:34 <joanie> CS: But thumb says it can be used for window resizing.
19:46:47 <joanie> BG: Understanding the use cases and how to program them would be helpful.
19:47:02 <joanie> BG: Are we talking about tabbing to a container which is resizable using the arrow keys?
19:47:08 <joanie> CS: That's one possibility.
19:47:25 <joanie> CS: Another is like in Outlook when we have multiple panes dividing the window.
19:47:38 <joanie> JS: In HTML4... was it a frameset?
19:48:24 <joanie> JS: For lack of a better word, this thing is a separator that divides a window into two parts.
19:48:37 <joanie> JS: You can resize the panes without resizing the window itself.
19:49:00 <joanie> CS: And some apps update the layout depending on the width/height of the pane.
19:49:12 <joanie> CS: For instance, single line versus multiple line.
19:49:23 <joanie> JS: Dojo has something like this.
19:49:36 <joanie> JS: You can Tab to it and then resize the panes with the arrow keys.
19:49:54 <joanie> BG: Anyone have a web example I can look at?
19:50:00 <joanie> JS: Let me look for Dojo's.
19:50:20 <joanie> CS: I think outlook.com has similar functionality.
19:50:36 <joanie> BG: Having a concrete usecase will help.
19:50:46 <joanie> JS: The Dojo example says it's deprecated.
19:51:01 <joanie> JS: And this doesn't seem to be keyboard accessible.
19:52:55 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:53:21 <clown> JD:  A window splitter expoeses the focusable state; and HR does not.
19:53:41 <clown> JD: a window splitter exposes a value interface; an HR doesn't
19:54:25 <clown> JD:  Isn't that enough to make the distinction between an interactive window splitter and a static separator (HR).
19:55:02 <clown> action-2069?
19:55:02 <trackbot> action-2069 -- Matthew King to Write proposal to resolve issue 1028 for the separator role -- due 2016-05-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:55:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2069
19:55:34 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:55:47 <joanie> JS: Supposedly we have a pending CfC for action-2069.
19:56:17 <joanie> JS: He's indicated that this is largely editorial, and the changes are targeted mainly towards authors.
19:56:27 <joanie> JS: (Quotes from text from Matt)
19:56:41 <joanie> JS: It sounds very similar to what Joanie said.
19:57:36 <joanie> JS: So maybe nothing needs to be done. Well....
19:57:50 <joanie> JS: There may still need to be mappings.
19:59:27 <joanie> JD: There will need to be mappings.
19:59:54 <joanie> JD: In Cynthia's case (for UIA), if it has focusability and values, it's a thumb.
20:00:08 <joanie> JD: In my case, it needs to implement the value interface.
20:03:53 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:03:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:04:01 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:04:51 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:05:17 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:05:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:05:43 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
20:05:50 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop