14:53:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-mobile-a11y-irc
14:53:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:53:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:53:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
14:53:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:53:56 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2016
14:55:20 <Kim> Agenda+ Finish 2.6.1 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
14:55:21 <Kim> Agenda+ Discussion page for force touch, requiring touch: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
14:55:23 <Kim> Agenda+ Comments from WCAG
14:55:24 <Kim> Agenda+ Next Steps - next meeting June 16
14:55:42 <Kim> zakim, clear agenda
14:55:42 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:47 <Kim> Agenda+ Finish 2.6.1 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
14:55:49 <Kim> Agenda+ Discussion page for force touch, requiring touch: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
14:55:50 <Kim> Agenda+ Comments from WCAG
14:55:52 <Kim> Agenda+ Next Steps - next meeting June 16
14:57:24 <Kim> Regrets+ Alistair, Alan
14:57:35 <laura> laura has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:54 <Kim> Present+ Kim
15:00:33 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:02 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:37 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
15:02:37 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:02:58 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:07 <patrick_h_lauke> has the meeting password changed for webex or am i misremembering it?
15:03:24 <patrick_h_lauke> (incidentally, could the password just be removed? not sure if there's any harm in having it without)
15:03:52 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:03:59 <patrick_h_lauke> thank you
15:04:08 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:24 <patrick_h_lauke> used uppercase rather than lowercase
15:04:25 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:05:46 <patrick_h_lauke> i still don't know what the point of the webex thing actually is tbh
15:06:04 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
15:06:43 <patrick_h_lauke> i.e. talking over phone line, chatting on irc...the actual webex client seems pointless
15:06:50 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:07:06 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
15:07:21 <chriscm> present+
15:07:25 <chriscm> present+ chriscm
15:07:42 <Kim> 	https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:08:11 <patrick_h_lauke> scribe: patrick_h_lauke
15:08:20 <Kim> zakim, take up item 1
15:08:20 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Finish 2.6.1 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone." taken up [from Kim]
15:09:47 <patrick_h_lauke> [period at end of url isn't working]
15:09:53 <patrick_h_lauke> [needs to be manually put in]
15:10:22 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: under proposed SC there's a new one. 2.6.1
15:10:42 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: we took out force touch
15:11:03 <patrick_h_lauke> decided to have discussion around force touch separately
15:11:07 <patrick_h_lauke> instead of cramming it in here
15:11:23 <patrick_h_lauke> we should wait until we have David's comments on this
15:11:56 <patrick_h_lauke> has anybody not seen this last week?
15:12:10 <patrick_h_lauke> Chriscm: not seen it
15:12:16 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: i've not seen it either
15:12:54 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: we took out force touch
15:13:07 <patrick_h_lauke> thing to do is point this out to David
15:13:12 <patrick_h_lauke> but go ahead and discuss force touch
15:13:29 <jeanne> q+
15:13:59 <patrick_h_lauke> Jeanne: i think there was more to discussion than just removing force touch
15:14:08 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
15:14:25 <patrick_h_lauke> need to make it clear that second one is the one we're proposing, as first one has glaring problem with exception
15:14:38 <patrick_h_lauke> we also came up with two use cases for device manipulation:
15:15:14 <patrick_h_lauke> shake to undo, where dev has to provide alternative; second one is step counter, which does NOT need an alternative, as it's not a user input
15:15:45 <patrick_h_lauke> [discussion on which one REQUIRES alternative]
15:16:47 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: we should have discussion on force touch, user requirements and problems
15:16:59 <patrick_h_lauke> comments from WG are still going on, but created a wiki page already
15:17:04 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_and_Pointer_Guideline_-_WCAG_WG_Feedback
15:17:16 <patrick_h_lauke> once survey closes, we'll make a survey to comment on comments
15:18:21 <patrick_h_lauke> force touch https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch - do we have a definition of force touch?
15:18:27 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: no
15:19:34 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: so we should start with force touch definition
15:19:47 <patrick_h_lauke> Marc: isn't force touch apple-specific
15:20:13 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: yes, as noted on wiki, we should use "pressure-sensitive touch", but there are stylus/pen with pressure sensitivity
15:20:21 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: should we use pressure-sensitive input
15:20:24 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: works for me
15:20:32 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: do we have a definition then?
15:20:58 <patrick_h_lauke> that it's via touch or stylus, that it's measuring pressure on the screen
15:27:40 <patrick_h_lauke> [discussion on the fact that applications can react differently to interactions with a pencil/stylus vs interactions with a touch]
15:29:04 <patrick_h_lauke> Chris: there will be situations where an application relies on the richness of force touch inputs; but there will be situations where it's reasonable to expect people to provide alternatives for
15:34:44 <jeanne> " except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)"
15:37:31 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: there could be menus that require a pen that is pressure / tilt sensitive so that it can offer quick access to many menu options?
15:38:11 <patrick_h_lauke> for ref: pressure, tilt https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#pointerevent-interface
15:38:51 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: there are 100 levels of pressure and tilt, you can do amazing things, and it's unlikely that developers can provide an alternative that is keyboard accessible / non-pressure touch accessible
15:39:52 <patrick_h_lauke> Jeanne: what other use cases have we got that are not complex?
15:40:14 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: using pencil to highlight or not highlight text
15:44:08 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: classic scenario (based on iOS) is simple tap/touch to activate, vs force touch to activate context menu/popup/peek&pop/auxiliary functionality/shortcuts
15:45:47 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: but force touch is just a single value, not like pressure from pencil
15:46:10 <chriscm> Thanks Jeanne!  Sorry, trying to listen as long as I can and pack for my flight at the same time :)  I'm out guys!!!!
15:46:31 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: no even on iOS touchscreen on latest iphones, pressure is a continuous measure (say from 0 to 1). iOS just decides that pressure up to a certain value is a tap, over that it's a force touch
15:46:53 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: so what use cases have you captured so far?
15:47:02 <patrick_h_lauke> s/KP/KW
15:47:17 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: not captured use cases, but we've been talking about force touch going through levels
15:47:36 <patrick_h_lauke> and a pencil...most applications now falling under exceptions
15:48:14 <patrick_h_lauke> as patrick pointed out that applications now don't take advantage of more than 2 levels of pressure, there's potential for apps reacting to more steps/levels
15:48:31 <patrick_h_lauke> issue is: what do we do with complicated stuff? drawing, music, etc?
15:48:55 <patrick_h_lauke> are applications going to cut people out, and how can we deal with that?
15:50:15 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: any more examples?
15:51:28 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: you could use tilt (if we're widening the idea to tilt) as a joystick, using the position/angles of a stylus against the digitizer to control a flight simulator
15:51:37 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: other scenario: using a pen to draw a signature?
15:52:01 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: this would fall squarely under the definition of keyboard/path
15:52:23 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: so given these scenarios, what are the challenges to the users
15:52:40 <patrick_h_lauke> the simplest is users not being able to use things at all
15:52:55 <patrick_h_lauke> Marc: would you include users that can't keep the pointer on the same spot?
15:53:27 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: there could be users that don't know levels of pressure they're applying
15:54:17 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick was actaully saying something...
15:54:35 <patrick_h_lauke> have you unmuted me?
15:54:48 <patrick_h_lauke> apologies for tapping away
15:54:50 <patrick_h_lauke> q+
15:55:25 <jeanne> q_
15:55:28 <jeanne> q-
15:55:37 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: i've used stylus and would say that using it you can do things amazingly well quickly
15:56:23 <patrick_h_lauke> thing i fear most is users being shut out. even if making things FUNCTIONALLY equivalent (example of speech, where in theory yes user can say the names of keys)
16:01:49 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: while i was muted, i talked about how generally there are issues of users outright not being able to use functionality (because they lack a pressure-sensitive input), but more problematic users who have the right input but lack dexterity (to hit, say, 20 different pressure levels to enable 20 different options/effects, or to keep their stylus static while applying ever increasing levels of pressure, or tilting etc)
16:02:14 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: are we now also including tilt/swivel/twist?
16:02:20 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: isn't that device manipulation?
16:02:36 <patrick_h_lauke> PL: i originally argued pressure IS device manipulation
16:04:01 <patrick_h_lauke> i'd say there's a grey area particularly as we move to stylus/pencil that has pressure AND twist AND tilt etc
16:04:31 <patrick_h_lauke> we can certainly say pressure/force touch is NOT device manipulation, but then for other sensors on the same input we can't say well those ARE part of device manipulation
16:04:45 <patrick_h_lauke> so we'll need to perhaps look more broadly/re-categorise
16:05:01 <patrick_h_lauke> KW: we're going to send out survey about this for next week, please look out for the email
16:05:18 <patrick_h_lauke> KP: and if you can come up with more use cases please send them to list/add to wiki
16:06:40 <patrick_h_lauke> resolution: further discussion needed to write clear definition of pressure-sensitive input, to come up with use cases (easy and hard ones). see survey that will come on mailing list
16:06:54 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-mobile-a11y-minutes.html patrick_h_lauke
16:07:18 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:07:27 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, stop