IRC log of wai-wcag on 2016-06-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:43:41 [RRSAgent]
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14:43:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:43:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:43:45 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
14:43:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:43:46 [trackbot]
Date: 07 June 2016
14:43:47 [Joshue108]
zakim, agenda?
14:43:47 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:43:48 [Zakim]
1. Github working group issues walk thru. [from AWK]
14:43:48 [Zakim]
3. New Success Criteria principles [from AWK]
14:43:48 [Zakim]
4. H91 changes (AWK) [from AWK]
14:43:49 [Zakim]
5. Pull request 189 [from AWK]
14:44:01 [Joshue108]
Chair: AWK
14:47:42 [LiangchengLI-ZJU]
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14:50:55 [AWK]
zakim, clear agenda
14:50:55 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:51:06 [Wayne]
Scribe: Wayne
14:51:20 [AWK]
agenda+ TPAC Registration (
14:53:09 [AWK]
agenda+ Mobile TF survey:
14:53:20 [AWK]
14:53:44 [AWK]
agenda+ H91:
14:53:55 [AWK]
agenda+ WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline
14:54:06 [AWK]
agenda+ timeline
14:54:15 [AWK]
agenda+ COGA update (Lisa)
14:57:18 [steverep]
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14:57:28 [Greg]
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14:57:54 [LiangchengLI-ZJU]
what‘s the password
14:58:05 [LiangchengLI-ZJU]
of webex
14:59:25 [laura]
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15:00:32 [KimD]
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15:00:44 [lauriat]
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15:02:12 [Kathy]
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15:02:22 [Makoto]
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15:02:35 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:02:49 [AWK]
15:02:56 [lauriat]
present+ Lauriat
15:03:06 [Joshue108]
present+ Joshue108
15:03:08 [Wayne]
present+ wayne
15:03:13 [KimD]
Present+ KimD
15:03:16 [Ryladog]
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15:03:30 [Ryladog]
Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:03:36 [Greg]
present+ Greg_Lowney
15:03:43 [AWK]
15:03:45 [Joshue108]
present+ John Kirkwood
15:03:51 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:51 [Zakim]
Present: AWK, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea,
15:03:54 [Zakim]
... patrick_h_lauke, Elledge, MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, wayne, jon_avila, marcjohlic, Rachael, adam_solomon, Shawn_Lauriat, [Steve, Repsher], JamesNurthen, Steve_Repsher,
15:03:54 [Zakim]
... steverep, Sarah_Swierenga, Lauriat, Steve, Andrew, DavidMacDonald, john_kirkwood
15:04:21 [Makoto]
present+ Makoto
15:04:38 [davidmacdonald]
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15:04:58 [davidmacdonald]
Present+ Davidmacdonald
15:05:01 [marcjohlic]
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15:05:53 [MichaelC]
present+ MichaelC
15:06:03 [marcjohlic]
present+ marcjohlic
15:06:21 [Sarah_Swierenga]
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15:06:38 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:06:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "TPAC Registration (" taken up [from AWK]
15:07:10 [steverep]
15:07:30 [laura]
present+ Laura
15:07:42 [Rachael]
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15:07:47 [Wayne]
AWK: TPAC We will meet 19-20 (Mon Tues)
15:08:07 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 2
15:08:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Mobile TF survey:" taken up [from AWK]
15:08:09 [MichaelC]
-> WCAG TPAC meeting page
15:08:15 [MoeKraft]
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15:08:29 [Wayne]
Kathy: I will scribe next week.
15:08:42 [MichaelC]
s/TPAC2016/TPAC 2016/
15:09:08 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 3
15:09:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "" taken up [from AWK]
15:09:19 [Lisa_Seeman]
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15:09:29 [Lisa_Seeman]
15:09:53 [Wayne]
Topic: PDF Proposaal
15:09:54 [kirkwood_]
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15:12:41 [Ryladog_]
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15:12:45 [Wayne]
AWK: This has been requested many times. People should be paying attention to tag order and not the ? order. Claim we could test using the refow panel. Whyle using reflow can give the reflow order is the difference.
15:13:00 [Wayne]
15:13:13 [jon_avila]
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15:13:19 [jon_avila]
15:13:22 [Wayne]
15:14:21 [Joshue108]
15:14:31 [Wayne]
AWK: We want to make sure that the tag order does determine order, but content stream is important. These changes are needed and aprotriate.
15:15:27 [Wayne]
Josh: It sounds good. The issue of tage order being different from content order. Needs to call that our.
15:16:16 [Wayne]
AWK: This needs to be kept simple, how to test ...
15:17:00 [Wayne]
RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed
15:18:27 [Wayne]
Topic: Adding PX comment to G18 and G145
15:18:54 [Wayne]
AWK: This follows through with early dissussion with resize.
15:19:31 [Mike_Elledge]
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15:19:56 [Mike_Elledge]
present+ Mike_Elledge
15:20:02 [Wayne]
Josh: The term user agent does not appear exact. Suggest remove user agent part.
15:20:46 [Wayne]
AWK: The only concern is it is the same as in the Understanding Document.
15:20:53 [Greg]
15:21:14 [Wayne]
Josh: User agents don't evaluat success criteria.
15:21:44 [AWK]
ack gr
15:21:46 [Joshue108]
ack gerg
15:21:57 [Wayne]
AWK: This can be fixes with an editorial change.
15:22:55 [Joshue108]
+1 to Greg
15:23:12 [Wayne]
Greg: Suggestion: The size in points from the UA...
15:23:15 [allanj]
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15:23:25 [AWK]
AWK: We can add a comma after "does"
15:23:31 [Greg]
"The size in points should be obtained from the user agent ..."
15:24:02 [Joshue108]
15:24:27 [AWK]
ack josh
15:25:09 [Joshue108]
thanks for that Greg
15:25:11 [AWK]
AWK: will change first sentence to "The size in points should be obtained from the user agent, or calculated based on font metrics as the user agent does, when evaluating this success criterion."
15:25:36 [Wayne]
RESOLUTION: Accept this change as amended.
15:26:43 [Wayne]
Topic: Remove references of 3.2.1 from f52
15:28:12 [Wayne]
AWK: This incorrectly states that 3.2.1 fails because of this. F52 does not 3.2.1. The full request the process removed 3.2.1 and then a few editorial changes.
15:29:11 [Joshue108]
15:30:31 [jamesn]
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15:30:42 [jamesn]
15:30:57 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jamesn
15:31:43 [MoeKraft]
Pull request includes wcag20/sources/understanding/visual-audio-contrast7.xml
15:32:06 [Wayne]
MichaelC: There is a reference to different item that needs to be pulled.
15:33:04 [Ryladog_]
15:33:45 [davidmacdonald]
can you heaar me
15:33:54 [davidmacdonald]
15:33:57 [davidmacdonald]
15:34:04 [AWK]
ack r
15:34:58 [Wayne]
Katie: I agree that it looked like it was being deleted.
15:34:59 [jamesn]
15:35:38 [AWK]
ack james
15:35:38 [jon_avila]
15:35:41 [jamesn]
ack me
15:35:50 [Joshue108]
ack jame
15:35:51 [AWK]
ack jon
15:36:09 [Wayne]
David: I just being removed from 3.2.1 we really remove it. If we are slow at adding failures we should be slow at removing them.
15:37:23 [AWK]
The WG discussed on April 6 and decided to remove it:
15:37:24 [Greg]
15:37:31 [Wayne]
JonA: Perhaps this is not exactly what we want. We don't have anything to claim. I'm on the fence.
15:38:17 [Joshue108]
15:38:18 [Wayne]
AWK: If it is wrong then it is still wrong.
15:38:32 [Ryladog_]
15:39:01 [AWK]
ack greg
15:39:09 [Wayne]
David: Is it a good mapping. We all agree that failures. We can't add failures. We have a double standard: easy to remove, hard to add.
15:39:35 [Wayne]
15:39:36 [AWK]
Summary of arguments for 3.2.1 and F52
15:39:37 [AWK]
15:39:48 [Joshue108]
15:40:04 [AWK]
ack r
15:40:10 [Wayne]
AWK: Take a look at initial comment.
15:40:41 [Joshue108]
15:40:49 [Joshue108]
15:41:06 [AWK]
ack wa
15:41:08 [Joshue108]
q+ Its all about whether something is wanted or not
15:41:11 [Wayne]
Rydadog. I have an issue to have something to fail. Grabs the focus is a
15:41:18 [Rachael]
15:41:34 [Joshue108]
q+ is change of focus wanted or not
15:41:51 [AWK]
15:41:56 [Joshue108]
q+ to say is change of focus wanted or not
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15:42:47 [AWK]
ack jo
15:42:47 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say is change of focus wanted or not
15:42:56 [Wayne]
AWK: Failure F55 would that do it.
15:44:20 [AWK]
ack r
15:44:26 [Ryladog]
15:44:33 [jamesn]
15:44:49 [Wayne]
Josh: This is the core is user wanted. Er on the side of fear on removal. There is a question mark about how the group describes focus. What to do. This not utteterly wrong.
15:45:26 [AWK]
ack r
15:45:38 [Joshue108]
s/This is the core is user wanted/Whats at the core here is what the user wants
15:45:55 [Wayne]
Rchael: I can see how this does not apply sometimes.
15:46:09 [AWK]
ack ja
15:46:11 [Greg]
15:46:30 [Joshue108]
s/This not utteterly wrong/while this may be a little wrong it may not be utterly wrong and does indicate a genuine user issue albeit in an imperfect way.
15:47:02 [Wayne]
Katie: This should not be failure. We should not change what people have been doing for a long time, but focus change WCAG\
15:47:37 [Joshue108]
15:47:53 [AWK]
ack g
15:47:54 [Wayne]
James: The imediate popup, maybe there should be exceptions? Maybe there be clarification.
15:47:54 [Greg]
Setting aside questions of value to the user, my reading is that this case is covered by the wording of 3.2.1 because (a) actions that take place when a page first loads would count as happening when “a component receives focus”, as the document in the viewport is getting focus when the page is loaded, and in UAWG at least the document counted as a component, and (b) opening a new window...
15:47:56 [Greg]
15:47:57 [Greg] a change of context can if the user agent does not allow the user to specify that new top-level viewports should not take focus.
15:49:25 [Wayne]
Greg: Looking over the notes that refuted my reading the wording implies that this would be covered. Opening a new can be changing context. There was a good argument but it is not clear from the meeting.
15:49:41 [Ryladog]
Katie: We should NOT remove this FAILURE at this point in time. We have been accepting this failure for 10 years, we need coverage to fail unexpected chanages of context and focus whne new pages open - where focus get highjacked. Keep this failure as is. Make sure we make this clear for WCAG 2.1
15:50:07 [Joshue108]
15:50:30 [Wayne]
AWK: When the page does not receive focus because the change happens before focus.
15:50:58 [Greg]
s/that refuted my reading/I didn't find anything that refuted my reading/
15:51:24 [jon_avila]
After loading a page, the page is focused by the browser. You can see this by using inspect. However, a component is not focused unless # or autofocus, or JS
15:51:24 [Wayne]
David: The code is part of the address. So, I cannot see the interruption this failure.
15:51:39 [Wayne]
15:52:04 [Joshue108]
15:52:04 [JF]
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15:52:15 [AWK]
ack wayne
15:52:17 [jon_avila]
Agree with David
15:52:19 [JF]
Present+ JF
15:52:23 [Wayne]
David: The popup (like collect your email) does not seem to be a failure.
15:52:34 [Joshue108]
WD: Yes, thats not so bad
15:52:42 [Joshue108]
WD: There are worse examples.
15:52:59 [Joshue108]
WD: You may not have an idea of where you are at, but you do have an expectation.
15:53:07 [Joshue108]
WD: There can be a marked change of context.
15:53:20 [Joshue108]
WD: We may just need more clarification on techniques.
15:53:23 [Joshue108]
ack me.
15:53:27 [Joshue108]
ack me
15:53:43 [Wayne]
Josh: David kind of won me around.
15:53:45 [Mike_Elledge_]
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15:54:07 [Wayne]
AWK: We don't have a consensus.
15:54:15 [steverep]
15:55:05 [Wayne]
David: Will write a reply and identify that the group will look at this issue.
15:55:06 [AWK]
ack ste
15:57:06 [Wayne]
Steve: It sounds like more detailed description. I can see how some cases can be acceptable. It could go either way if we changed the context of the failure.
15:57:33 [Wayne]
RESOLUTION: No concensus
15:57:46 [Joshue108]
ACTION: DavidMac D to write response to Chaals on F52
15:57:46 [trackbot]
Error finding 'DavidMac'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
15:57:50 [Wayne]
Topic: Focus order with TabIndex - is it allowed? #182
15:58:17 [Wayne]
AWK: Had unanamous response.
15:58:30 [Wayne]
RESOLUTION: Accept as proposed.
15:59:10 [AWK]
zakim, next item
15:59:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "TPAC Registration (" taken up [from AWK]
15:59:14 [AWK]
zakim, next item
15:59:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, AWK
15:59:20 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 4
15:59:20 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "H91:" taken up [from AWK]
15:59:37 [JF]
16:00:11 [KimD]
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16:00:22 [Wayne]
AWK: There was enough question of how this would look. Show the change table for 91
16:00:30 [AWK]
16:01:11 [Wayne]
...: Look at the githup h91 wording adding new types to the table.
16:02:03 [AWK]
16:02:06 [Wayne]
...: If we don't here comment we will sent out a CfC.
16:03:10 [Wayne]
John: Why would you disable ffieldset?
16:03:36 [Wayne]
AWK: Disable regions conditionally.
16:03:52 [AWK]
16:04:59 [AWK]
zakim, take up item 5
16:04:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline" taken up [from AWK]
16:05:13 [davidmacdonald]
I wrote a response to 170 here.
16:05:29 [AWK]
zakim, take up item 7
16:05:29 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "COGA update (Lisa)" taken up [from AWK]
16:06:59 [davidmacdonald]
pls drop in link
16:07:14 [AWK]
Gap analysis:
16:07:23 [Wayne]
LisaS: We would like feedback: First Working Draft of gap analysis and roadmap. There are more gaps than redmaps we want format comment.
16:07:58 [Wayne]
Lisa: Gap summary all issues we have found of what is requierd
16:07:58 [Joshue108]
16:08:32 [Joshue108]
WD: So is the roadmap also the gap analysis?
16:08:41 [Joshue108]
Lisa: Its in one doc, yes.
16:09:20 [KimD]
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16:09:20 [Wayne]
Lisa: Gaps looks issues, the second is looking forward.
16:10:06 [Wayne]
Lisa: People don't have to like content, but we'd like feedback.
16:10:45 [Wayne]
Lisa: The second document is (section) Issue Papers.
16:10:58 [Joshue108]
16:11:36 [Wayne]
Lisa: Email references links to each issue. Personalization, safety
16:12:17 [AWK]
Proposed semantics:
16:12:28 [Wayne]
Lisa: The final document is a proposal for additinal semantics.
16:12:50 [Ryladog_]
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16:13:32 [Wayne]
...: This may go in aria, html we don't know. That they would enable to simplify. We know we don't have th answers, but we need feedback.
16:13:54 [Wayne]
...: Publishing will enable moving it along.
16:14:42 [Wayne]
AWK: We will send out a survey. Look for show stopper issues.
16:15:08 [Joshue108]
16:15:42 [Joshue108]
16:15:59 [AWK]
ack j
16:16:01 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:16:15 [Wayne]
Lisa: Emphasize this is a first working draft, not a final draft.
16:16:36 [JF]
+1 to Lisa and the COGA Team - woot woot!
16:17:01 [laura]
Thanks to Lisa and COGA.
16:18:03 [Ryladog_]
+1 to publish the First Working Draft
16:18:03 [Wayne]
MichaelC: Multi documents with many subsections.
16:18:08 [Joshue108]
16:18:18 [AWK]
zakim, take up item 5
16:18:18 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "WCAG Techniques and Understanding timeline" taken up [from AWK]
16:20:28 [Wayne]
AWK: We need all changes by end of June for September review; We will comment until August
16:20:58 [AWK]
June 28 - final changes approved
16:21:01 [Wayne]
...: In next few weeks you must get in all comments.
16:21:55 [MichaelC]
-> Timelines for this round
16:22:10 [AWK]
zakim, take up item 6
16:22:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6. " timeline" taken up [from AWK]
16:23:25 [JF]
Q+ to ask if we've settled on June 2018, or if we have flexibility on that date
16:23:27 [Wayne]
AWK: For a wcag 2.1 out in two years. June 2018, Proposed Rec, Candidate Rec, Pseudo final call,
16:24:07 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:24:16 [Wayne]
...: We work back we need SCs, from TFs. Target FPW in March 17 time frame.
16:24:41 [JF]
s/March 17 time frame/March 2017 time frame
16:24:57 [Wayne]
...: Start in in October, with an Editors Draft.
16:25:22 [AWK]
ack j
16:25:22 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask if we've settled on June 2018, or if we have flexibility on that date
16:25:34 [Wayne]
AWK; Timeline will be given in wiki.
16:25:45 [Joshue108]
16:25:59 [Wayne]
JF: How did we get the June 2018
16:26:15 [Wayne]
16:26:41 [Wayne]
AWK: This is a strawmam timeline
16:27:08 [Wayne]
JF: Allign it wih an important date.
16:27:24 [KimD]
KimD has joined #wai-wcag
16:27:26 [Wayne]
16:28:40 [AWK]
ack lisa
16:29:02 [Wayne]
JF: Don't lose sight of this possible
16:29:23 [Wayne]
Lisa: What is the date you need success criteria.
16:29:48 [Wayne]
16:30:49 [Wayne]
Lisa: Dates for SC and supporting materials. It will be easier to do with a clear definition of what is an acceptance creiteria.
16:31:03 [Wayne]
16:32:01 [Wayne]
AWK: There are details that TFs need. It is hard to land if you don't know the ocean.
16:32:32 [JF]
Q+ to ask for confirmation that newly proposed SC can come from 'anywhere' and are not restricted to current Task Forces.
16:32:53 [Wayne]
Lisa: It we start with a working draft can we submit successive criteria.
16:33:17 [Wayne]
MichaelC: Refining yes, adding no.
16:34:02 [Joshue108]
WD: If we do have ideas of what SCs should be we can define that now.
16:34:05 [Joshue108]
16:34:08 [Joshue108]
16:34:10 [AWK]
ack wayne
16:34:12 [Joshue108]
16:34:25 [Joshue108]
q+ to say will there be a TF co ordination call this Thurs?
16:34:50 [Joshue108]
WD: Have we built in time to co-ordinate what the various TFs are doing/giving?
16:36:00 [Wayne]
AWK: We've started meeting with TF Co-Chairs and are identifying common issues to remove cotractions. That is on the RADAR.
16:36:52 [Mike_Elledge]
Bye all!
16:37:10 [jamesn]
16:37:11 [Wayne]
Lisa: We definitely will have. personalization.
16:37:25 [AWK]
ack j
16:37:25 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say will there be a TF co ordination call this Thurs?
16:37:41 [Wayne]
JF: Can SCs come from anywhere?
16:38:03 [Wayne]
JF: SCs are not restricted to TFs.
16:38:57 [Wayne]
AWK: That is the chairs idea. They may get pushed off to 3.0
16:39:22 [Wayne]
MichaelC: We may want a call before the December date.
16:40:04 [Wayne]
JF: There might be some fine tuning. Go through the process MAUR.
16:40:05 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:40:10 [Joshue108]
ack jf
16:40:10 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask for confirmation that newly proposed SC can come from 'anywhere' and are not restricted to current Task Forces.
16:40:41 [laura]
16:40:50 [AWK]
zakim, end meeting
16:40:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'end meeting', AWK
16:41:06 [Wayne]
trackbot, end meeting
16:41:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:41:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AWK, EricE, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, John_Kirkpwood, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge,
16:41:09 [Zakim]
... John_Kirkwood, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea, patrick_h_lauke, Elledge, MacDonald, Katie_Haritos-Shea, wayne, jon_avila, marcjohlic, Rachael, BM, Shawn,
16:41:09 [Zakim]
... Lauriat, adam_solomon, Davidmacdonald, Shawn_Lauriat, [Steve, Repsher], JamesNurthen, Steve_Repsher, steverep, Sarah_Swierenga, Steve, Andrew, John
16:41:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:41:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:41:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:41:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
16:41:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DavidMac D to write response to Chaals on F52 [1]
16:41:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in