IRC log of annotation on 2016-06-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:33:20 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-irc
- 14:33:22 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:33:22 [Zakim]
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- 14:33:24 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 2666
- 14:33:24 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot
- 14:33:25 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
- 14:33:26 [trackbot]
- Date: 03 June 2016
- 14:33:38 [ivan]
- Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/0e9b01d1bd0e$c7623930$5626ab90$@illinois.edu
- 14:33:45 [ivan]
- ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/0e9b01d1bd0e$c7623930$5626ab90$@illinois.edu
- 14:33:58 [ivan]
- Chair: Tim and Rob
- 14:34:11 [ivan]
- Regrets+ Ben, Dan
- 14:44:23 [azaroth]
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- 14:45:37 [azaroth]
- Present+ Rob_Sanderson
- 14:54:30 [TimCole]
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- 14:58:06 [ShaneM]
- I have a client with a crisis this morning. regrets.
- 14:58:52 [ShaneM]
- oh - I see the agenda is largely about testing. hmm. I will figure something out so I can call in when that topic starts up.
- 14:59:22 [ivan]
- wait: webex seems to be unaccessible, meaning that we may have to cancel the call! !@#$%^&*
- 14:59:44 [bigbluehat]
- which might be fine for ShaneM it sounds
- 15:00:12 [azaroth]
- It gets stuck at 98% for me
- 15:00:13 [azaroth]
- :(
- 15:00:21 [Loqi]
- it'll be ok
- 15:00:47 [uskudarli]
- uskudarli has joined #annotation
- 15:01:06 [Jacob]
- Jacob has joined #annotation
- 15:01:14 [Kyrce]
- Kyrce has joined #annotation
- 15:02:45 [tilgovi]
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- 15:03:14 [shepazu]
- present+ shepazu
- 15:03:45 [Jacob]
- present+ Jacob_Jett
- 15:03:51 [ivan]
- present+ ivan
- 15:03:56 [bigbluehat]
- present+ Benjamin_Young
- 15:04:41 [Kyrce]
- present+ Kyrce_Swenson
- 15:05:06 [tilgovi]
- Present+ Randall_Leeds
- 15:05:14 [TimCole]
- present+ Tim_Cole
- 15:06:15 [TimCole]
- scribenick: Jacob
- 15:06:39 [TimCole]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the F2F are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/05/27-annotation-minutes.html
- 15:06:45 [TimCole]
- Topic: Minutes
- 15:06:59 [Jacob]
- TimCole: any remarks about the minutes from last week?
- 15:07:09 [Jacob]
- RESOLUTION: Minutes of the F2F are approved: https://www.w3.org/2016/05/27-annotation-minutes.html
- 15:07:22 [TimCole]
- Topic: Progress to CR
- 15:07:25 [azaroth]
- Regrets+ TB_Dinesh, Ben_De_Meester, Dan_Whaley
- 15:07:48 [Jacob]
- ... Rob completed a large amount of work on the drafts, progress has been posted
- 15:08:57 [Jacob]
- azaroth: update-- two issues opened by Europeana folks, normalization discussion needs to agreed upon, other than these, other issues have been closed
- 15:09:32 [Jacob]
- ... should be able to quickly close the remaining issues
- 15:09:37 [Jacob]
- ... ready to go to CR
- 15:09:46 [Jacob]
- ... vocab still needs some examples added
- 15:10:02 [TimCole]
- https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/227
- 15:10:46 [Jacob]
- ... recommendation from internationalization group was that the normalization para be removed unless specific requirements make it necessary
- 15:11:00 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:11:12 [ivan]
- q+
- 15:11:20 [TimCole]
- ack iv
- 15:11:26 [Janina_]
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- 15:11:34 [Jacob]
- ... normalizations might be applied due to our requirements but not necessary to mention internationalization
- 15:11:57 [Jacob]
- ivan: propose to close the issue as they (internationalization folks) have suggested
- 15:12:02 [TimCole]
- Proposal: for #227 remove paragraph on normalization and close (move to editorial)
- 15:12:22 [azaroth]
- http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#text-quote-selector
- 15:12:48 [Jacob]
- azaroth: want to look at the 2nd para after the table
- 15:13:54 [Jacob]
- ... can try to lop the paragraph into two in order to separate the normalization from the part describing selection
- 15:14:22 [tilgovi]
- Mostly just removing the DOM Strings part, then? And splitting the rest around it?
- 15:14:56 [Jacob]
- ... suggesting splitting the para so that the first part discusses normalization and then rephrase the second para so that it doesn't discuss normalization at all
- 15:16:00 [TimCole]
- applications SHOULD implement the DOM String Comparisons method. This allows the Selector to be used with different encodings and user agents and still have the same semantics and utility.
- 15:16:06 [Jacob]
- ... so first 2 sentences become a para, next sentence is deleted [?], and remainder of paragraph has all mentions of normalization removed
- 15:16:15 [TimCole]
- Note that this does not affect the state of the content of the document being annotated, only the way that the content is recorded in the Annotation.
- 15:16:38 [Jacob]
- TimCole: suggest we preserve the sentences above and delete everything else
- 15:17:08 [Jacob]
- ... so that no one thinks that the underlying content should be changed
- 15:18:17 [Jacob]
- ... opinions? ok, with removing the paragraph altogether, but also ok with preserving stuff about string comparisons as long as we don't provide details on how those comparisons are to be made
- 15:18:39 [Jacob]
- azaroth: will make quick changes now, then ...[garbled]
- 15:18:55 [Jacob]
- ... come back to issue before end of call
- 15:20:32 [Jacob]
- ivan: need to close remaining issues, then make a resolution to freeze features, give WG a week to review the documents, so that they can note any glaring problems, with the goal to officially request to go to CR by the end of next week
- 15:20:59 [Jacob]
- TimCole: so ok to vote next week so long as WG has been notified to review the documents by the end of today
- 15:21:04 [Jacob]
- ivan: yes
- 15:21:24 [Jacob]
- TimCole: plans for testing, need to be finalized by next week?
- 15:21:51 [shepazu]
- q+
- 15:21:54 [Jacob]
- ivan: documents, pubs must be ready, call with director must be set up, that period should be used 100% on testing
- 15:22:19 [Jacob]
- ... so if possible plans for testing should be finalized by next week
- 15:22:34 [azaroth]
- Okay, new version at: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#text-quote-selector
- 15:22:43 [Jacob]
- ... plans must be written down, as agreed in Berlin
- 15:22:44 [TimCole]
- https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Aeditor_action+-label%3Apostpone
- 15:23:06 [TimCole]
- ack doug
- 15:24:12 [ShaneM]
- present+ ShaneM
- 15:25:05 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:25:14 [TimCole]
- ack shep
- 15:25:39 [Jacob]
- TimCole: link posted to issues not yet marked postponed or editorial
- 15:25:51 [Jacob]
- ... most recent issue is for resource previews in annos
- 15:26:14 [Jacob]
- ivan: let's close issue 227, rob has made the changes
- 15:26:50 [Jacob]
- azaroth: moved selection to preceeding para, deleted everything else except the dom string mention
- 15:26:57 [tilgovi]
- q+
- 15:26:58 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:27:14 [TimCole]
- ack tilgovi
- 15:28:35 [Jacob]
- tilgovi: dom string comparison recommendation was one of things called out by the internationalization folks as something causing problems
- 15:28:53 [Jacob]
- ... should not introduce normalizations there
- 15:29:00 [Jacob]
- TimCole: so drop the mention
- 15:29:25 [Jacob]
- azaroth: should we go ahead and delete the subsequent para which mentions the dom apis
- 15:29:57 [tilgovi]
- Shouldn't that next para read "Text Quote"?
- 15:30:03 [tilgovi]
- It says Position.
- 15:30:53 [Jacob]
- TimCole: deletion doesn't change the substance of the section, just means we aren't giving any help to implementers
- 15:31:24 [Jacob]
- tilgovi: would leave in the DOM api's para, otherwise people will use the selector api
- 15:32:09 [Jacob]
- TimCole: my sense is that the less we say, the better; whole thing is in flux (as discussed in Berlin)
- 15:32:10 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:32:24 [tilgovi]
- Fine for me.
- 15:33:03 [azaroth]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Remove DOM string comparison, UTF-8, and avoid implications that comparison should be part of the normalization routine
- 15:33:18 [TimCole]
- +1
- 15:33:20 [Jacob]
- +1
- 15:33:21 [azaroth]
- +1
- 15:33:28 [ivan]
- _+1
- 15:33:28 [ivan]
- +1
- 15:33:40 [bigbluehat]
- +1
- 15:33:48 [tilgovi]
- +1
- 15:33:53 [Kyrce]
- +1
- 15:34:00 [Jacob]
- RESOLUTION: Remove DOM string comparison, UTF-8, and avoid implications that comparison should be part of the normalization routine
- 15:34:08 [ivan]
- rrsagent, pointer?
- 15:34:08 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-irc#T15-34-08
- 15:34:16 [TimCole]
- https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Aeditor_action+-label%3Apostpone
- 15:34:41 [ivan]
- https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Aeditor_action+-label%3Atesting+-label%3Aeditorial+-label%3Apostpone+
- 15:35:32 [Jacob]
- ivan: is #249 postponed?
- 15:35:42 [Jacob]
- TimCole: should be marked editor action or closed
- 15:35:49 [azaroth]
- http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd2/#motivation-and-purpose
- 15:36:17 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:36:39 [Jacob]
- azaroth: #257 -- want to include info in the anno that allows the client to display a snippet or preview to the end user
- 15:37:17 [Jacob]
- ... ivan has suggested this be postponed, [rob] agrees, don't know what clients actually need to do this yet
- 15:37:30 [Jacob]
- ivan: not sure it even needs to be in the model at all
- 15:37:41 [Jacob]
- TimCole: doesn't need to be in v.1 of the model
- 15:37:51 [azaroth]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Postpone #257, lacking information as to what is appropriate for previews of resources
- 15:38:08 [ivan]
- +1
- 15:38:11 [azaroth]
- +1
- 15:38:12 [TimCole]
- +1
- 15:38:14 [Jacob]
- +1
- 15:38:22 [tilgovi]
- +1
- 15:38:23 [bigbluehat]
- +1
- 15:38:35 [Jacob]
- RESOLUTION: Postpone #257, lacking information as to what is appropriate for previews of resources
- 15:38:44 [ivan]
- rrsagent, pointer?
- 15:38:44 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-irc#T15-38-44
- 15:38:48 [Jacob]
- ... that leaves us with #247
- 15:39:16 [PaoloCiccarese]
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- 15:39:32 [Jacob]
- azaroth: can add a sentence saying that if you have contradictory information from external resources, believe the external resources and not the annotation
- 15:40:04 [PaoloCiccarese]
- Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
- 15:40:06 [Jacob]
- ... e.g., external resource claims target is html, and anno claims something different, believe that it is html
- 15:40:11 [tilgovi]
- tilgovi has joined #annotation
- 15:40:34 [Jacob]
- TimCole: discussion?
- 15:40:45 [azaroth]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Add to the note in 3.2.1 that information from the resource should be considered authoritative, not the Annotation's properties
- 15:40:48 [Kyrce]
- +q
- 15:40:57 [azaroth]
- ack Kyrce
- 15:40:59 [TimCole]
- ack kyrce
- 15:41:13 [Jacob]
- Kyrce: is this a question of content of the resource or its format?
- 15:41:23 [Jacob]
- azaroth: not content, just its metadata
- 15:41:28 [ivan]
- +1
- 15:42:08 [Jacob]
- +1
- 15:42:09 [TimCole]
- +1
- 15:42:10 [Kyrce]
- +1
- 15:42:14 [azaroth]
- +1
- 15:42:14 [bigbluehat]
- +1
- 15:42:26 [Jacob]
- RESOLUTION: Add to the note in 3.2.1 that information from the resource should be considered authoritative, not the Annotation's properties
- 15:42:38 [ivan]
- rrsagent, pointer?
- 15:42:38 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-irc#T15-42-38
- 15:42:49 [TimCole]
- q?
- 15:43:00 [Jacob]
- TimCole: that seems to be it; 2 issues for testing and 2 issues for pending
- 15:43:01 [azaroth]
- Yay! :D
- 15:43:02 [Loqi]
- woot
- 15:43:05 [azaroth]
- Thank you all :)
- 15:43:19 [Jacob]
- ivan; all done, as testing issues don't need to be addressed at this time
- 15:43:41 [ivan]
- https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Atesting+-label%3Aeditorial+-label%3Apostpone+
- 15:44:04 [Jacob]
- ... everything else is editor's actions
- 15:44:23 [Jacob]
- ... my impression is that all of them have been addressed but they need to be closed
- 15:45:30 [Jacob]
- ivan: features freeze, call for one week review, then CR next week
- 15:46:09 [ivan]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The model, vocab and protocol documents are now in feature freeze, and in a one week WG review period to propose them for CR next week (06-09)
- 15:46:17 [azaroth]
- +1
- 15:46:18 [PaoloCiccarese]
- +1
- 15:46:21 [ivan]
- +1
- 15:46:22 [TimCole]
- +1
- 15:46:23 [Jacob]
- +1
- 15:46:23 [bigbluehat]
- +1
- 15:46:24 [Kyrce]
- +1
- 15:46:30 [Jacob]
- TimCole: discussion?
- 15:46:46 [ShaneM]
- +1
- 15:46:48 [tilgovi]
- +1
- 15:46:51 [Jacob]
- RESOLUTION: The model, vocab and protocol documents are now in feature freeze, and in a one week WG review period to propose them for CR next week (06-09)
- 15:47:09 [TimCole]
- Topic: Testing
- 15:47:29 [Jacob]
- ... will take the testing issues out of order and start with the new one
- 15:47:50 [Jacob]
- ... ivan noted a need for interoperability testing
- 15:48:38 [Jacob]
- ivan: yes, would be nice to demo interoperability via server, in practice -- 1 client pushes an anno into a server and another client fetches that anno and displays it in its own way
- 15:48:50 [TimCole]
- q+
- 15:48:54 [ShaneM]
- hmm.... I don't think that is a CR requirement.
- 15:49:04 [Jacob]
- ... whether we have enough implementations to do that, don't know, but would be a good extra
- 15:49:53 [Jacob]
- TimCole: like this idea in general, but concerned that the implementations don't have much overlap w/r/t domain, community, or topicality
- 15:50:17 [TimCole]
- ack ti
- 15:50:27 [Jacob]
- ... e.g., emblem annotation are kind of unique, is testing if they're interoperable artificial?
- 15:50:53 [Jacob]
- ivan: understand, shouldn't be a formal active criteria, but would be very nice to demonstrate
- 15:51:08 [azaroth]
- q+
- 15:51:17 [TimCole]
- ack aza
- 15:51:18 [Jacob]
- ... if it can be done, it will strengthen the interoperability of the standard
- 15:51:27 [ShaneM]
- protocol testing should ensure that each client sends and retrieves annotations correctly...
- 15:52:14 [Jacob]
- azaroth: seems like we should try to have 2 clients and 2 servers where client 1 makes a anno on server 1, copy it to server 2 and have it read by client 2
- 15:53:48 [Jacob]
- ivan: testing a singular implementation for the protocol is not the same as testing across multiple clients
- 15:54:24 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: however, if have multiple clients and they all pass the protocol tests, then hasn't interoperability been tested?
- 15:54:52 [Jacob]
- ivan: need a server independent from the clients
- 15:55:02 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: assuming this for protocol tests
- 15:55:18 [Jacob]
- ivan: discussed in Berlin to use scenarios
- 15:56:04 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: the web platform test infrastructure is a server, so be pointing the protocol tests at that server, then an independent server will have been provided to/for them
- 15:56:55 [Jacob]
- TimCole: to be clear, the protocol requires accepting/responding to LDP exchanges, so it didn't seem clear to us that that capacity existed at this tinme
- 15:57:15 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: the platform is capable of modeling any protocol that is desired
- 15:57:53 [azaroth]
- ShaneM++
- 15:57:54 [Loqi]
- ShaneM has 2 karma
- 15:58:00 [bigbluehat]
- ShaneM+++++++
- 15:58:01 [Loqi]
- ShaneM has 3 karma
- 15:58:31 [Jacob]
- TimCole: sounds like we have a better way to do protocol testing than we thought in Berlin
- 15:59:22 [Jacob]
- ... seems that we still need to test if anno looks the same in two different implementation environments, e.g., Rob's implementation v Europeana implementation
- 16:00:31 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: protocol test is next for me, sounds like vocab/model tests are there, so will move on to implementing protocol tests
- 16:00:59 [Jacob]
- TimCole: have built some schemas to test the model, is the infrastructure to trigger a run in place?
- 16:01:50 [Jacob]
- ShaneM: will post the instructions for how to do the testing to the lists
- 16:02:15 [Jacob]
- TimCole: will spend next friday on discussing testing after taking the CR vote
- 16:02:30 [Jacob]
- ivan: everyone should take some time to read through the documents
- 16:02:51 [Jacob]
- TimCole: will be very good, many small typos lurking
- 16:03:00 [Jacob]
- ...adjourn
- 16:04:31 [ivan]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:04:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-minutes.html ivan
- 16:04:40 [ivan]
- trackbot, end telcon
- 16:04:40 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 16:04:40 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Rob_Sanderson, shepazu, Jacob_Jett, ivan, Benjamin_Young, Kyrce_Swenson, Randall_Leeds, Tim_Cole, ShaneM, Paolo_Ciccarese
- 16:04:48 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 16:04:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/03-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
- 16:04:49 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:04:49 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items