IRC log of coga on 2016-05-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/16-coga-irc
13:42:23 [Lisa_Seeman]
regrets: ayelet seeman, Rich Schwerdtfeger
13:49:15 [Lisa_Seeman]
Meeting:The Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:49:16 [Lisa_Seeman]
Chair:Lisa_Seeman
13:49:18 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda: this
13:49:19 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ review actions, and timelines
13:49:21 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ TPAC
13:49:22 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ Tables https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html#table1">https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html#table1 also look at https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html, https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/techniques/index.html, https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/safety.html and https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga
13:49:24 [Lisa_Seeman]
/master/issue-papers/privacy-security.html
13:49:25 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ What have we missed for issues page,globish etc
14:35:56 [Rich]
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14:40:00 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ What have we missed for issues page,globish etc
14:45:26 [MichaelC]
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14:57:45 [Rich]
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14:58:02 [Rich]
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15:53:31 [Chaohai_Ding]
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15:55:14 [JohnRochford]
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15:55:49 [kirkwood]
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15:59:59 [thaddeus]
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16:01:30 [janina_]
present+ Janina
16:02:21 [kirkwood]
present + kirkwood
16:02:45 [Mike_Pluke]
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16:02:58 [thaddeus]
present Thaddeus
16:03:31 [thaddeus]
present + Thaddeus
16:04:59 [ddahl]
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16:05:39 [Susann_Keohane]
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16:06:21 [Susann_Keohane]
hi - whats the passcode on the phone line
16:07:05 [kirkwood]
I believe that mine is ready to go.
16:07:40 [JohnRochford]
Susann, I will send it to you via email. Hold on...
16:08:53 [Lisa_Seeman]
scribe: thaddeus
16:09:51 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:10:19 [thaddeus]
waiting for issue papers from Janina and john kirkwood
16:10:35 [thaddeus]
next action item is the table
16:10:48 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:10:58 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:11:33 [thaddeus]
moving away from editorial items and into other items
16:12:26 [thaddeus]
will be sitting with other groups such as WCAG and ARIA and will be seeing what they are doing and who we should involve in COGA
16:13:02 [thaddeus]
John is likely to attend the conference debbie will be attending
16:13:33 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:13:52 [thaddeus]
discussing days to meet during the conference. Mike will not be able to attend the conference
16:14:49 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:14:51 [thaddeus]
if people can let Lisa know who is planning on attending after the meeting it would be helpful
16:15:31 [thaddeus]
looking at table 1 trying to zoom in on issue paper road maps
16:15:40 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html#table1
16:15:48 [thaddeus]
we have multiple tables that address a set of user needs
16:16:01 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/privacy-security.html
16:16:12 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/safety.html
16:16:17 [thaddeus]
a group of user needs based on Privacy and Security and Online Safety
16:16:52 [thaddeus]
have users stories been accurately represented?
16:17:03 [thaddeus]
John knows the data well and can weigh in
16:17:14 [thaddeus]
1. look at user needs
16:17:36 [thaddeus]
2. look at how we are addressing in the extensions of COGA
16:17:54 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/index.html
16:18:04 [thaddeus]
Extensions can be expanded using the "expand" link
16:18:17 [thaddeus]
1. Extenstions of WCAG
16:18:22 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/techniques/index.html#keep-the-user-safe
16:18:32 [thaddeus]
2. Recommendations non-normative
16:18:46 [thaddeus]
Sorry Techniques not recommendations
16:19:06 [thaddeus]
co,un 3 is new semantics that are being suggested
16:19:13 [thaddeus]
column 3
16:20:17 [Lisa_Seeman]
q?
16:20:34 [thaddeus]
Open conversation - do these address the correct user needs?
16:21:24 [thaddeus]
The question on the table is do you think all user needs are there on the first paper - Security
16:21:45 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html#table1
16:21:51 [ddahl]
q+ to ask if the second row is any different from safety for any user?
16:22:04 [thaddeus]
Disscussing the table - the user stories at the top of the table
16:22:49 [thaddeus]
Lisa feels like there probably is a user story that is missing
16:23:08 [thaddeus]
user needs are different from user stories but they should may
16:23:09 [thaddeus]
map
16:23:31 [thaddeus]
do we have the right user stories and the right user needs
16:24:09 [thaddeus]
next to user needs are WCAG extention for COGA
16:24:25 [Lisa_Seeman]
(ยง expand)
16:24:30 [thaddeus]
It is suggested that the expand button be opened in a new window
16:24:58 [thaddeus]
currently it doesnt expand it is just a link. In the future it will expand
16:25:39 [thaddeus]
Does the success criteria meet the user need
16:26:39 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/techniques/index.html#minimize-the-cognitive-skills-required-to-use-the-content-when-there-is-a-known-alternative
16:28:04 [thaddeus]
some links may not be working because of the GitHub transfer
16:29:01 [thaddeus]
John will get back to Lisa after the call. If everyone could look at the table it would be useful
16:29:11 [thaddeus]
any comments on user needs from the group?
16:29:11 [Lisa_Seeman]
q?
16:29:24 [thaddeus]
A question on the second one
16:29:43 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/safety.html
16:29:52 [thaddeus]
everyone needs a safe way to interact not just COGA
16:30:21 [thaddeus]
the needs for people in this group are more pronounced because this group can be targeted first
16:30:44 [thaddeus]
these are the most vulnerable users and this needs visibility
16:31:30 [thaddeus]
People with impairments are being targeted and the group needs to mindful of this
16:32:31 [KurtM]
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16:32:44 [KurtM]
Present KurtM
16:33:10 [thaddeus]
maybe replace the word user need with usage in this case as the user need is not unique to this group
16:33:25 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html#table1
16:33:48 [thaddeus]
maybe these is a possible clarification to the user need
16:34:46 [thaddeus]
we could possibly divide this into two user needs
16:36:03 [thaddeus]
examples: making a purchase automatically set the purchase number from one to two and this could go unnoticed
16:36:31 [thaddeus]
incrementing purchase quantities could be an issue for this group
16:37:01 [EA]
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16:37:04 [thaddeus]
you are not a COGA friendly site if you are using such practices
16:37:32 [thaddeus]
another example is downloading unwanted software along with a wanted download
16:37:50 [thaddeus]
possibly name the table authentication and safety
16:39:05 [thaddeus]
renaming theable authentication and safety would be more clear and add a user need
16:39:27 [Lisa_Seeman]
As a user who has impairments I need to be able to use a site without being required to copy itemes in the correct sequence
16:40:18 [thaddeus]
the story lisa jsut entered could possibly be the story that is missing
16:40:58 [thaddeus]
we may already addressing in 3.4.4 however lisa is suggesting this as another user need
16:42:16 [thaddeus]
for simplicity we could wait for feedback instead of adding this - give the basics instead of more detailed needs
16:42:53 [thaddeus]
john has a worry that we could overload people with information and people will not pay attention
16:43:55 [thaddeus]
Lisa indicates that other groups need more information and the engineering side of these solutions. These are not for content authors they are for other groups within the w3c
16:44:13 [Lisa_Seeman]
I need a method of secure website authentication that I find easy to use
16:44:15 [Lisa_Seeman]
(Assume I have cognitive and memory impairments)
16:44:54 [Mike_Pluke]
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16:45:01 [Lisa_Seeman]
I need a method of secure website authentication that I find easy to use
16:45:03 [Lisa_Seeman]
(Assume I have cognitive and memory impairments)
16:45:38 [thaddeus]
adding "Assume I have" gives more context
16:46:10 [JohnRochford]
q+
16:46:21 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack d
16:46:21 [Zakim]
ddahl, you wanted to ask if the second row is any different from safety for any user?
16:47:31 [thaddeus]
Debbie agrees that adding "Assume I have" may help
16:48:13 [Lisa_Seeman]
(Assume I do not have the cognative function to identify all the risk)
16:48:43 [thaddeus]
It was suggested that there is a problem with the word "vulnerability" as this is an issue across groups including the elderly
16:49:07 [EA]
I like it
16:49:37 [thaddeus]
Now looking at personalization
16:49:39 [EA]
I meant cognitive function to identify all the risks
16:49:45 [JohnRochford]
q-
16:50:31 [thaddeus]
2 proposals in the extentions
16:50:45 [thaddeus]
do not expose user information ....
16:51:04 [thaddeus]
do not add mechanisms in a way that would do them harm
16:51:23 [thaddeus]
does this fullly cover the issue? or does something need to be added
16:51:43 [JohnRochford]
q+
16:51:52 [Susann_Keohane]
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16:51:57 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack q
16:52:20 [thaddeus]
John wonders where we define "harm"
16:52:40 [thaddeus]
"harm" can be defined through the WCAG extension
16:53:06 [thaddeus]
last time we discussed defining harm through the techniques
16:53:44 [thaddeus]
John suggests that the definition of "harm" is important to the context
16:54:55 [thaddeus]
Can we give examples without being exhaustive. This maybe a question for WCAG on the best place to define
16:56:15 [thaddeus]
discussing using deliberate harm vs accidental harm
16:56:42 [thaddeus]
no one will admit to deliberate harm
16:57:56 [thaddeus]
we are not saying that authors need to do anything active from causing harm and this could be a problem
16:58:46 [thaddeus]
we define known techniques so they are finite
16:59:39 [Lisa_Seeman]
q?
16:59:47 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack j
16:59:51 [JohnRochford]
q-
17:00:42 [thaddeus]
need to clearly define the amount of harm. There is a lot of ambiguity
17:01:21 [thaddeus]
It is suggested that we need something before the word harm to provide more context
17:02:18 [thaddeus]
it feels like we are getting the hang of these tables and they will be of use
17:02:34 [thaddeus]
will finish this table next week
17:03:09 [ddahl]
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17:03:10 [thaddeus]
thank you
17:03:19 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:26 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:03:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/16-coga-minutes.html Lisa_Seeman
17:07:43 [Lisa_Seeman]
zakim, please part
17:07:43 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Janina
17:07:43 [Zakim]
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17:07:46 [Lisa_Seeman]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/Personalization-and-User-Preferences.html
17:09:52 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, please part
17:09:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items