IRC log of aria on 2016-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:27:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:27:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:27:32 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
16:27:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:27:35 [Rich]
chair: Rich
16:27:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:27:35 [trackbot]
Date: 05 May 2016
16:27:41 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:30:27 [Rich]
Present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:31:03 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:31:36 [Rich]
16:32:57 [fesch]
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16:33:09 [fesch]
present+ fesch
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Present+ JF
16:35:35 [clown]
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16:36:07 [jongund]
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16:37:56 [jongund]
what is the webex id (9 digit number?) for the aria room?
16:38:09 [jemma]
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16:38:10 [Rich]
scribe: Jemma
16:38:19 [jemma]
make log world
16:38:22 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:38:31 [jemma]
16:38:40 [jemma]
16:38:54 [jemma]
rrsagent, make log world
16:39:15 [jemma]
16:39:29 [MichaelC]
scribeNick: jemma
16:39:31 [Rich]
Topic: CFC
16:39:36 [jemma]
16:39:43 [jemma]
16:39:45 [Rich]
16:39:51 [jongund]
what is the Password?
16:40:15 [joanie]
s/What is the Password?//
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16:40:46 [jemma]
rich:Joann will close the agenda item
16:41:00 [joanie]
16:41:26 [jemma]
joanie:do we have uia mappings?
16:41:56 [mck]
present+ matt_king
16:41:56 [jemma]
rich:joshep: we didnot have any entry yet
16:43:09 [joanie]
s/joanie:do we have uia mappings/Cynthia: We have UIA mappings/
16:43:44 [joanie]
Joanie: I am still considering how to map this in ATK and AT-SPI2.
16:44:05 [jemma]
joshep will create aria-keyshortcut action item
16:44:08 [joanie]
Joanie: The problem is that the way all keyboard shortcuts are exposed is through the Action interface.
16:44:19 [clown]
16:44:34 [joanie]
Joanie: But real actions have actions which can be invoked.
16:44:45 [joanie]
Joanie: This is not the case for our new ARIA property.
16:44:46 [jemma]
16:45:03 [joanie]
Topic: Password role
16:45:51 [jemma]
Agenda+ Update on password role
16:45:58 [JF]
Q+ to ask about some of the other comments from the secureity folks
16:46:17 [jemma]
Rich: how are we doing with voiceover, Joanie?
16:46:42 [Rich]
Action: Joanie: Speak with Apple about VoiceOver rendering, rendered text for passwords
16:46:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2061 - Speak with apple about voiceover rendering, rendered text for passwords [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-05-12].
16:46:49 [JF]
ack JF
16:46:49 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask about some of the other comments from the secureity folks
16:48:05 [jemma]
Rich: the browser manufactures, especially firefox indicated that they dont have security measure/
16:48:33 [jemma]
Rich: Cynthia, Ms do you indicate that it is insecure in the page?
16:48:44 [jemma]
cyn: it is in browser, not in the page
16:48:53 [bgaraventa1979]
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16:49:07 [jemma]
16:49:08 [JF]
Q+ to ask about author guidance here.
16:49:15 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:49:45 [jemma]
cyn:in ie, if there is a bug, it kept saying "security alert' repeatedly so we don't want to do that.
16:50:38 [Rich]
16:50:45 [jemma]
rich: questions is more about narrative
16:51:03 [jemma]
cyn: screenreader need to know where to go and see the status
16:52:07 [jemma]
jf:browser know the relationship
16:52:21 [Rich]
16:52:30 [JF]
+1 to the feture request
16:53:18 [jemma]
jf: is there any way that we can have any non normative way to talk about pw? some note for creating custom pw ?
16:53:56 [jemma]
cyn: usual pattern is ui login is in inscure page and after login it is in secure page.
16:54:24 [jemma]
rich: I can put a note about it.
16:54:42 [jamesn]
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16:55:36 [jemma]
cyn: we need some suggestion form developer about where to put pw role, for example, before form action or not.
16:56:03 [jemma]
jn: this is security requirement, not a11y requirement
16:56:16 [jemma]
joanie: I agree with Jame
16:56:26 [jemma]
16:56:38 [jemma]
rich: I don't disagree with it
16:56:53 [fesch]
16:57:00 [JF]
ack JF
16:57:00 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask about author guidance here.
16:57:03 [JF]
“My concern is more aligning a user context, and the behavior of the browser/tool : aka taking special care of the data. It seems to me that in terms of security, the creation of the role, password, is valuable if you have a secure expected usage associated. By secure, I mean, making sure the content is protected from direct reading on the screen, special protection against (including unexpected cloning or storage) *and* that the user is getting a sense of the sens
16:57:04 [jemma]
rich: it is aboout "expected secure usage"
16:57:18 [Rich]
16:57:24 [Rich]
ack fesch
16:57:31 [mck_]
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16:57:35 [jemma]
fred: it is all applied to credential management
16:58:05 [jemma]
fred: where the pw is stored in the browser so on..
16:58:18 [jemma]
rich: it should be indicated somewhere, the question is where
16:58:53 [clown]
q+ to suggest the crendential management spec needs an accessibility section.
16:59:01 [jemma]
rich: how do we wire that- credential managemeent- to aria rule?>
16:59:22 [jemma]
16:59:44 [jemma]
Fred: AAM is tracking this and we pass that to COGA
17:00:03 [jemma]
rich: who will take this agenda? fred?
17:00:10 [jemma]
fred: you can give me an action on that
17:00:28 [mck__]
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17:00:29 [jemma]
joanie: give actions to APA?
17:01:34 [Rich]
Action: Fred work with APA to address password roles/elements/credential management in a secure environment for TPAC
17:01:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2062 - Work with apa to address password roles/elements/credential management in a secure environment for tpac [on Fred Esch - due 2016-05-12].
17:02:06 [jemma]
Topic:active decendants
17:02:07 [clown]
zakim, ack me
17:02:07 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to suggest the crendential management spec needs an accessibility section.
17:02:09 [Rich]
17:02:10 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
17:02:30 [mck]
17:02:39 [jemma]
mat: I used the branch michale created to work on active decendants
17:03:46 [jemma]
mat: in the branch, michale already has active decendants property concerning with application role. I merged that recent master and made more edits.
17:04:08 [jemma]
mat: trying to simplify the language
17:04:17 [clown]
q+ to point out that RFC MUST is exceptionless, use SHOULD for exceptions
17:05:00 [jemma]
rich: where there is underline in the widget?
17:05:03 [jemma]
matt: widget is for glossary reference
17:05:17 [fesch]
q+ only to say when is misspelled in the third paragraph (wen)
17:05:21 [jemma]
mat: composite is role referece
17:06:06 [jemma]
rich: editorial suggestion
17:07:08 [jemma]
glossary reference out of "widget"
17:07:38 [jemma]
mat: will remove glossary reference from "widget"
17:08:02 [jemma]
mat: group here is strange
17:08:47 [jemma]
mat: 3 subclass of group
17:09:03 [joanie]
17:09:06 [janina]
present+ Janina
17:09:18 [jemma]
would like to take out of group from the section, "used in roles"
17:09:40 [jemma]
mat: row is also subclass of widget
17:09:52 [joanie]
q+ To talk about row
17:10:00 [joanie]
17:10:31 [joanie]
q+ To also talk about group
17:11:12 [jemma]
rich: "group" does not damage anything.
17:11:55 [jemma]
mat: will add textbox to first paragraph
17:12:33 [jemma]
*trying to save type :-)
17:12:43 [jemma]
17:13:29 [joanie]
17:14:48 [jemma]
matt: can we say "interactive element"
17:14:59 [jemma]
rich: how about "designated"?
17:15:39 [Rich]
The aria-activedescendant property provides an alternative method of managing focus interactive elements, such as menus and grids, that may have multiple focusable descendants.
17:15:56 [Rich]
17:17:13 [jemma]
joseph: it should "should", not "must" because it has exceptions
17:17:44 [jemma]
jn: how about making bulleted list?
17:18:09 [jemma]
jn: make them as three separate bullets
17:19:36 [jemma]
jf:aria control does not have decendant while aria-owns has decendant
17:20:08 [jemma]
17:20:33 [jemma]
fred: aria control does not define children
17:20:52 [fesch]
17:21:07 [jemma]
jn: aria active descendants can be determined by aria-own or by dom tree
17:22:57 [jemma]
matt:active decendant can point anything in the dom
17:23:20 [Rich]
s/matt:active/matt: active/
17:23:58 [jemma]
fred: CoreAM we do force to have correct/direct decendants, not any dom as decendants
17:24:09 [jemma]
fred: we need this for focus management
17:24:50 [jemma]
there is difference in focus management dom decendant- it is easy or active decendants
17:25:17 [jemma]
s/focus management/focus management for
17:25:33 [jemma]
s/there/fred: there
17:26:48 [jemma]
matt: API perspective, when do we care about when it is focusable or not.
17:27:34 [jemma]
fred: ie, presentational item is not focusable
17:28:06 [Rich]
17:28:19 [clown]
17:28:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand '', clown
17:28:29 [clown]
zakim, ack me
17:28:29 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to point out that RFC MUST is exceptionless, use SHOULD for exceptions
17:28:31 [Zakim]
I see only on the speaker queue
17:29:00 [jemma]
\matt: I can change it back as "should"
17:29:11 [jemma]
17:29:30 [Rich]
17:29:58 [jemma]
s/fred: /Joseph
17:30:19 [jemma]
s/fred: /Joshep:
17:30:34 [jemma]
s/fred: /Joseph
17:31:03 [jemma]
rich: I like making it as billeted list.
17:31:15 [jemma]
s/fred: /Joseph:
17:31:23 [Rich]
17:33:26 [jemma]
matt: I would like to make a change about "Some user agents might use.."
17:34:16 [jemma]
joanie: if we make a decision this week, I can take it to ?
17:34:29 [joanie]
17:34:47 [jemma]
*joanie can you fill the question mark
17:36:03 [jemma]
s/to ?/to the development
17:36:48 [jemma]
cyn: it may difficult to do the way IA2 did. I remember there is some difficulty before.
17:38:51 [jemma]
joanie: let's don't take out, there must be a reason for the existence of "Some user agents might use.."
17:39:16 [jemma]
joanie: I would be happy to dig out why that sentence is there if someone give me an action
17:39:37 [joanie]
joanie to research why it says "user agents might use aria-activedescendant..."
17:39:46 [joanie]
action joanie to research why it says "user agents might use aria-activedescendant..."
17:39:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2063 - Research why it says "user agents might use aria-activedescendant..." [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-05-12].
17:39:53 [joanie]
s/joanie to research why it says "user agents might use aria-activedescendant..."//
17:40:41 [jemma]
Action 2059
17:40:50 [joanie]
Topic: Action 2059
17:40:52 [joanie]
17:40:52 [trackbot]
action-2059 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-posinset, aria-setsize as supported states and properties to roles: menutitem, menuitemcheckbox, and menuitemradio -- due 2016-05-05 -- OPEN
17:40:52 [trackbot]
17:41:06 [jemma]
Topic: Add aria-posinset and aria-setsize to roles menuitem, menitemcheckbox, and menuitemradio
17:42:00 [joanie]
Just supporting it on menuitemradio is confusing for all the reasons treating grouped menuitems as separate sets is confusing. So we do need to resolve this.
17:42:18 [joanie]
We should explicitly state in the spec that authors SHOULD treat the set as the full menu, with the setsize being all menuitems (and their subclasses, regardless of type or the presence of visual separators).
17:42:24 [jemma]
joanie is coping the conclusions
17:42:41 [joanie]
The APG should provide sufficient examples to make this clear, and perhaps explain some of the rationale behind the normative statement we put in the spec.
17:43:09 [jemma]
joanie has three conclusions from her research
17:43:51 [jemma]
matt: how screen readers know about grouping menu?
17:45:00 [jemma]
matt: did not realize semantic value but we still recommend to put those.
17:45:19 [jemma]
joanie: I agree with what Matt said
17:47:47 [jemma]
joanie: would like to get consensus on conclusion #2 We should explicitly state in the spec that authors SHOULD treat the set as the full menu, with the setsize being all menuitems (and their subclasses, regardless of type or the presence of visual separators).
17:48:44 [Rich]
17:48:57 [Rich]
17:49:18 [joanie]
17:49:41 [Rich]
17:49:45 [Rich]
17:51:26 [jemma]
joanie: how about taking out " group" from context in menuitem?
17:54:07 [jemma]
Joanie: keeping group as required context group role. another is using group to make things to clear to screen users.
17:54:51 [jemma]
matt: we need to make label the group to distinguish sub groups.
17:55:57 [jemma]
rich: should we include "level" for this?
17:56:05 [jemma]
joanie: no
17:56:38 [jemma]
joannie: I will do draft for existing action.
17:57:10 [jemma]
17:57:12 [Rich]
17:57:34 [jemma]
michale: we just need review from the group
17:57:52 [jemma]
michale: change the note to spec text
17:58:26 [jemma]
michale: it is section7.5
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17:59:52 [jemma]
michale: added aria-label. it is bulleted list but it does not look like one here
18:00:14 [jemma]
rich: I am ok with this
18:00:26 [jemma]
rich: can we put it as cfc?
18:01:50 [jemma]
joseph: aria checked and html checked has direct conflict
18:02:06 [jemma]
joseph: overriding cases
18:02:58 [jemma]
matt: typo for "intrinsic"
18:03:17 [Rich]
RESOLUTION: Accept Michael’s proposal for Action 1489 pertaining to Native Host language semantics
18:03:55 [Rich]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:03:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Rich
18:07:16 [jemma]
present+ Jongunderson
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present+ jamesnutren
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present+ cynthia
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18:08:39 [jemma]
rrsagent, generate minutes
18:08:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jemma
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