12:51:06 RRSAgent has joined #tvapi 12:51:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-irc 12:51:33 Meeting: TV Control CG/WG call 12:51:40 Chair: Chris 12:51:44 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:56:30 :-) Hi! 13:01:14 kaz has joined #tvapi 13:01:29 Zakim has joined #tvapi 13:01:53 Present+ Francois 13:02:00 Present+ Chris 13:03:37 cpoole has joined #tvapi 13:03:47 jo has joined #tvapi 13:04:05 abosl has joined #tvapi 13:04:34 aldafu has joined #tvapi 13:04:47 present+ Kaz 13:05:09 rrsagent, make log public 13:05:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:05:17 Present+ Bill_Rose, Jo_Woodwood, Kaz 13:05:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:05:58 Present+ Sung_Hei_Kim 13:06:26 skim13 has joined #tvapi 13:06:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:06:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:07:20 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tvcontrol/2016Apr/0005.html 13:07:33 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tvcontrol/2016Apr/0005.html 13:07:36 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tvcontrol/2016Apr/0005.html 13:07:40 Scribe: Francois 13:07:44 scribenick: tidoust 13:08:05 Chris: Welcome everyone to the call. This is the first joint call between the Community Group and the Working Group. 13:08:35 ... The scope of the work is about sourcing audio/video streams. 13:08:51 ... [going through the agenda] 13:09:26 present+ Alexander_Futasz, Andreas_Bosl 13:11:09 Present+ Bin_Hu 13:11:37 Bin_Hu has joined #tvapi 13:11:40 Topic: Introductions 13:11:44 present+ Igarashi 13:12:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:12:25 Chris: Working for BBC R&D. Chair of the TV Control WG. The interest we have here is the convergence between TV and the Web and in particular in how we can source audio/video sources into the Web browser. 13:13:28 Alexander: We have been part of the CG to bridge the gap between TV and Web industries. We have pushed Mozilla to adopting the spec, with little success. Unfortunately, we recently lost the editor of the spec from Mozilla. 13:13:55 ... We're monitoring the interest. 13:14:09 igarashi has joined #tvapi 13:14:18 Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 13:14:54 Bin: Working for AT&T. Involved in the CG since it started. We have published the first version of the spec at the end of October last year. 13:15:12 ... Great achievement for the community group, thanks for everyone involved! 13:15:33 ... We fully support the work, although for some internal reasons we cannot join the WG for the time being. 13:15:50 Andreas: [scribe lost audio] 13:16:15 Andreas: from IRT, R&D for broadcasting in Germany 13:16:22 ... If it's possible to bring radio in the API. 13:16:39 ... We also implemented a small prototype of the current spec. 13:16:59 ... on an Android device, to get the DVB-T signal from a dongle. 13:17:44 Jo: I'm From Eurofins testing. We do test materials for TV specifications such as the TV Control API. My interest is to see how things progress here. 13:18:14 ... We have experience from HbbTV in particular. 13:18:55 Chris_Poole: colleague of Chris in the BBC R&D. I've been involved in connected TV standardisation in the last few years. 13:18:59 present+ Chris_Poole 13:19:06 ... HbbTV and national standardisation in the UK. 13:20:01 ... Interested to see how the API evolves, and on whether it duplicates what already exists in the connected TV world or whether it approaches the topic differently. 13:23:36 Igarashi: I work for Sony. I have been involved in several iTV organizations, recently ATSC. 13:23:37 s/Woodwood/Woodward/ 13:24:01 present+ Steve_Morris 13:24:02 ... Many iTV system define their own API, but I think we need a global one. 13:24:15 ... Interested in making the TV Control API a Web standard. 13:24:27 ... I think we need to think about the secure aspects of TV Control. 13:24:38 Chris: I fully agree with respect to the security questions. 13:25:07 presenta+ Ttatsuya_Igarashi 13:25:19 SungHeiKim: From ETRI, in Korea. I was involved in standards for Smart TVs. This group is highly relevant for us. 13:25:23 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 13:25:41 Youngsun_Ryu has joined #tvapi 13:26:13 Steve: I'm Steve Morris from Espial, based in the UK. We've involved in various standardisation activities including the HbbTV. Willing to become more engaged now that the WG has been created. 13:26:34 Bill: Consultant working for Comcast, NBC Universal. 13:26:51 present+ Bill_Rose 13:27:01 ... Making the delivery of content more efficient. Watching how this work is doing just to see how it intersects with the GGIE. 13:27:12 ... Also looking at intersection with WAVE. 13:27:56 ... WAVE looking at HTML5 and other Web technologies to create universal media content. 13:27:59 https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mfe5c117b71497c499d568a96a14e83c6 13:28:02 This is Youngsun, I;m still having trouble to connect WebEX. 13:28:57 topic: WG procedure 13:29:23 fd: Kaz and myself are W3C staff contacts 13:29:39 ... my role is helping Chair and the group 13:30:14 ... what I'd like to do within a few minutes is let you know about how W3C work 13:30:28 present+ Younsun_Ryu 13:30:49 ... WG will work based on 3 main documents 13:30:53 ... 1. W3C Process 13:30:58 ... 2. W3C Patent Policy 13:31:17 ... 3. TV Control WG Charter 13:31:33 ... which defines the scope of the group's documents 13:31:42 ... these documents are to be followed by the group 13:32:01 ... if the group is wondering something, we should follow the documents 13:32:08 ... they're set of rules 13:32:33 ... the main emphasis is that W3C is an organization based on consensus 13:33:02 ... now we're working as a WG 13:33:17 ... to generate a Rec Track document, TV Control API 13:33:49 ... FPWD is important for disclosure of essential claims 13:33:58 ... and then we'll generate several WDs 13:34:18 ... it may take time 13:34:28 ... would note about the horizontal reviews 13:34:50 ... TV Control API spec needs to get reviews by I18N, A12Y, TAG, etc. 13:35:01 ... can't be on our own 13:35:14 s/I18N/Internationalization/ 13:35:15 s/A12Y/Accessibility/ 13:35:45 ... the Editor is going to edit the spec 13:35:57 ... one or more Editors can be assigned 13:36:18 ... right now the group doesn't have official editor 13:36:32 ... and need scribes for taking minutes for meetings 13:37:03 chris: Younsun, how about you? 13:37:48 youngsun: from Samsung, working for standardization for TV 13:37:56 ... hope to make this spec work 13:38:40 Kaz: I've been working for the CG since the beginning. I work for the Automotive group, which is interested in the radio tuner. Big overlap between the group on this topic. 13:38:54 Topic: Charter and scope of work 13:39:07 https://www.w3.org/2016/03/tvcontrol.html 13:39:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:39:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:40:01 Chris: The charter defines the scope of the group. It tells us what the group is able to work on. [reading out first scope sentence] 13:40:43 i/Kaz and myself/scribenick: kaz/ 13:40:55 i/I've been/scribenick: tidoust/ 13:40:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:40:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:41:07 s/first scope sentence/scope/ 13:41:40 Chris: The scope really includes most of the functions that a typical TV receiver or set-top box device includes. 13:42:00 ... If you read the draft spec, you'll see that a lot of these features are covered already in the work of the CG. 13:42:48 ... However, we need to be aware that this is a Web specification that we're building, and therefore we need to define the relationship between the device-capabilities that the device will have and what the Web browser will have. 13:43:04 ... This ties us back to privacy and security issues. 13:43:21 ... What sort of features are compatible with a Web runtime environment. 13:44:21 i|However|-> https://www.w3.org/2015/tvapi/Overview.html TV Control API draft spec| 13:44:22 ... Note we'll need to look at accessibility issues as well, and on the relationship between the API and the underlying broadcast protocols. 13:44:53 ... Where we're using a particular transport, e.g. DVB, how do the entities that we have in the API get sourced from the underlying delivery format? 13:45:22 ... Things that are not in scope: the actual sourcing technologies, developed elsewhere. 13:45:38 ... We may be interested to look at mappings though, as just said. 13:46:06 ... Another thing that is out of scope is presentation technology, and finally profiling of the specification to particular device limitations. 13:46:36 ... We want to keep the API as useful in the generic case as possible without introducing constraints such as the number of streams that may be viewed at once). 13:47:18 ... We may need to look at what happens when a device can only source one stream at a time, though. 13:47:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:47:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 13:48:05 ... At the moment, we've only identified one specification, the TV Control API spec, but the group may produce more specifications if needed, e.g. use cases and requirements, primer, etc. 13:49:28 ... The last piece that I'd like to cover is the timescale that we've set for ourselves. From the charter, you'll notice that we said we'll have a First Public Working Draft during Q2 2016, CR in Q3 2016. 13:50:01 ... This seems quite an ambitious timescale, and we'll see how we can go through the different horizontal reviews that Francois mentioned. 13:50:07 q+ 13:50:12 ... Any question? 13:50:16 ack kaz 13:50:54 Kaz: Just wondering about the relationship between the Cloud browser task force within the Web and TV IG and this group. 13:51:00 ... There may be some overlap. 13:51:05 Chris: That's possible. 13:51:46 ... I've been following the Cloud browser discussions. There's a local part that runs on your local device, and a remote part that runs on the cloud. 13:52:14 ... The TV Control API would run on the cloud part, probably. We have not had any discussion with the Web and TV IG yet, but that's certainly something we can do. 13:52:18 Kaz: I agree. 13:54:17 Chris: There are a number of groups that are listed in the liaisons section in the Charter, including the Automotive Business Group, the Device APIs and WebRTC WGs as we touch on the MediaStream interface. 13:55:09 ... Also HTML Media Extensions WG for the HTMLMediaElement, the Schema.org CG to align vocabularies used in the API with the TV ontology defined by the schema.org CG. 13:56:09 ... Also note external organizations. 13:56:34 Topic: Group process and tools 13:57:06 Chris: We have a new mailing-list for the Working Group which is separate from the Community Group: public-tvcontrol@w3.org. 13:57:38 ... Initially, we should cross-post to both mailing-lists (public-tvapi and public-tvcontrol) as the transition progresses. 13:57:48 ... We also have a new Wiki but there's not much content there. 13:58:07 ... I'll add more content and share the link once ready. 13:58:21 ... In terms of issue tracking, so far we've used the W3C tracker tool. 13:58:53 ... I have a proposal: I'd like to use the GitHub issue tracker to ease tracking issues against the specification, edited on GitHub. 13:59:06 ... Does that sound ok to everybody? 13:59:43 Alexander: This sounds reasonable. Maybe make a difference between issues that relate to the specification and other kinds of actions. Maybe use the old tracker for them? 14:00:18 q+ 14:00:30 Chris: I agree. If it's an action that comes out of a meeting, e.g. "look at radio requirements", we could continue using the existing task tracker. 14:00:39 ack kaz 14:01:14 Kaz: Because I work for Web of Things and Automotive groups as well, I'd like to suggest we only use one issue tracker and rather use labels to flag issues. 14:01:26 ... Recording issues on separate tool locations could be confusing. 14:01:39 [+1 to Kaz!] 14:01:49 Chris: Does GitHub work well with such actions? 14:01:53 Kaz: Yes, it's fine. 14:02:00 Chris: Happy to work that way, then. 14:02:28 Kaz: I note I personally like the old tracker very much :) 14:02:42 Alexander: I trust your experience. 14:03:13 Chris: Any other point of view? My recommendation is to start using GitHub issues. 14:03:26 Kaz: In that case, we're going to create a specific repo for this group? 14:03:32 q+ 14:03:42 Chris: That's a good question. 14:03:49 ... Right now, we have w3c/tvapi 14:04:15 Kaz: This is related to how we manage the two groups 14:04:25 ... If the CG is to continue, maybe it's better to create another repo. 14:05:14 Chris: Right, this relates to the transition we need to discuss. 14:05:18 ack tidoust 14:05:37 tidoust: we can clone the repository from tvapi to tvcontrol 14:05:58 ... definitely depends on what the CG would like to achieve 14:06:11 ... if we want we can keep it 14:06:20 ... easy to do either way 14:07:21 Kaz: We may want to talk about this issue on the mailing-list for a few weeks. 14:07:53 Chris: Yes, I'm just thinking to myself: the question is what is the nature of the work that will continue in the CG. 14:08:53 ... It seems to me that in the Community Group, there is some topic, in particular around radio, that is not yet ready to be brought in the spec as things stand. So the question is whether to continue the work in the CG, or whether we transition the work in the WG. 14:09:43 Kaz: The Automotive group had their F2F in Paris last week. They separated trackers for the BG and the WG. The BG is concentrating on Media tuners and so on, initial discussions for new topics. 14:10:12 ... If there is a clean separation like that, keeping two groups is fine, otherwise integration is probably better. 14:10:29 Chris: I agree, let's ask the CG about how it feels it should go. 14:10:47 ... I think we have most of the active participants here. 14:11:38 Alexander: I would be fine reusing the same repository, but it's a good idea to give people a chance to give an opinion on this. 14:12:01 ACTION: Chris to ask the CG about transitioning the GitHub repository to the WG 14:12:02 Error creating an ACTION: data field(s) missing from result. Please mail with details about what happened. 14:13:32 Chris: About the conference calls, there's a list of times for the next calls for the next year. They are every four weeks. There has been some suggestion that they be more per calendar month instead. 14:14:06 ... OK, seems like we're all happy with the existing schedule. So every 4 weeks, same timeslot, this time on Tuesdays. 14:14:11 Topic: Upcoming meetings 14:14:39 tidoust: once a year, W3C holds a Member meeting 14:14:54 ... this year TPAC will be held in Lisbon 14:15:03 ... TV Control WG will meet during TPAC 14:15:08 http://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/schedule.html 14:15:16 ... the above is the current schedule 14:15:24 ... our meeting is scheduled on Tuesday 14:15:37 ... registration for TPAC will open next Monday 14:15:48 chris: tx 14:15:58 ... and the Web&TV IG will meet on Monday as usual 14:16:02 tidoust: yes 14:16:19 chris: we don't have another meeting planned at the moment 14:16:46 Topic: Spec status 14:16:57 i/once a year/scribenick: kaz/ 14:17:01 Chris: We already covered that topic to some extent 14:17:17 i/We already/scribenick: tidoust/ 14:17:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:17:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 14:17:27 ... Main question is how do we produce a First Public Working Draft out of the final report of the TV Control API CG. 14:17:50 ... Question is whether there is an outstanding issue that we need to resolve before publication as First Public Working Draft. 14:18:03 i/we can clone/scribenick: kaz/ 14:18:13 i/We may want to/scribenick: tidoust/ 14:18:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:18:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html kaz 14:18:36 ... I've been thinking in terms of the security review that we initiated. As yet, we have not identified the impacts on the spec. I think we should pursue the work a bit further to inform the spec. 14:19:11 ... Another area where we need to improve the spec is around setting the context. I would like to see at least some introductory text. 14:19:38 ... This leads to the main concern actually: the editor of the spec is no longer with the group, so there's a gap right now. 14:20:15 ... Can I ask all of you present on the call today whether that's something you might be willing to take on, or if there's someone in your organization who could do it? 14:20:31 ... This is a very important role, we need an editor to make progress on the specification. 14:20:31 q+ 14:20:51 ack Youngsun_Ryu 14:21:30 -> https://www.w3.org/2015/tvapi/Overview.html CG Report 14:21:52 Youngsun: I have 2 comments. First of all, regarding the spec status, I think we need broad review. We need more time to review the CG report. Also, I am interested to joining the editing team. 14:22:17 q+ 14:23:11 Chris: Excellent! I agree with you. Your comments would be very welcome. If you want to raise those, just post them to the mailing-list while we figure out which issue tracking tool we're going to use. 14:23:20 ack kaz 14:24:19 Kaz: Theoretically, editor is the person who manages the editorial changes. If we use the GitHub environment, that would be the person who manages the Pull Requests. 14:25:08 ... Sometimes, we simply say that all people are editors or authors, but we should be careful who should be the main manager and who would be contributing to the different sections. 14:25:34 Chris: Yes, the editor should be the one responsible for reflecting the consensus of the group into the spec, while any of use can be authors of contributions. 14:26:09 Chris: Does that change something for you, Youngsun? 14:26:28 Kaz: Youngsun, you're interested in contributing concrete text, right? 14:26:33 Youngsun: Yes, at this point. 14:26:43 Chris: OK, this does not have to be settled right now. 14:26:55 ... Maybe that's another questions that I should be put to the mailing-list. 14:27:43 Topic: Current discussion topics 14:28:02 https://etherpad.w3ctag.org/p/29-03-2016-minutes.md 14:28:07 s/Yes, at this point/Not sure, at this point/ 14:28:09 https://etherpad.w3ctag.org/p/30-03-2016-minutes.md 14:28:39 igarah has joined #tvapi 14:28:42 Chris: the TAG had a F2F meeting recently and the TV Control WG charter was on their agenda. They raised some interesting comments. 14:29:12 ... They are wondering whether specific APIs such as the TV Control API or the ones coming to the Automotive group should be rather exposed as network resources. 14:29:52 ... As far as I know, the TAG does not have particular guidance at this point. I assume this is a relatively new issue for them. 14:30:10 ... I think we'll need to have a discussion with the TAG before long. 14:30:25 ... We want to integrate with the rest of the Web platform as much as we can. 14:30:36 ... That would be a good conversation for us to have with them. 14:31:01 ... I'll pick up some of their comments. 14:32:37 Chris: About the network resource vs. the JavaScript API approach, Yosuke was on their call the second day to give a perspective on what we're trying to achieve. Within the CG, we've not really discussed audio/video streams as network resources that we can control. 14:33:15 ... There was some discussions in the TAG on whether we're doing Bluetooth, which is not the case, but I can understand why they may think that. 14:33:26 https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/issues/111 14:33:27 ... I realize that they have an open issue for us. 14:33:52 q+ 14:35:13 q? 14:35:15 Francois: I would summarize the TAG's comments on the mailing-list first, discuss them to create responses 14:35:22 ... and then get back to the TAG 14:35:57 Kaz: I agree with Francois. I just wanted to mention related discussions in the Automotive group in Paris. 14:35:58 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/04/auto-f2f/28/DSC_0073_480x360.JPG automotive api levels 14:36:09 -> https://www.w3.org/2016/04/auto-f2f/28/DSC_0075_480x360.JPG WoT approach 14:36:56 ... From the Automotive side, the two pictures I just pasted describe the 3 levels of interfaces for automotive systems. The lower level is system level, corresponds to C++ programming. 14:37:33 ... The second level is between the Web runtime and the application, and this interface should be described by WebIDL, but some participants would like to use WebSockets here. 14:38:07 s/between the Web runtime and the application/between the Web runtime and the server/ 14:38:24 ... The third level between the Web runtime and the application is described with WebIDL. 14:39:10 ... This group could try the socket approach, that's possible. If the group wants to continue with the WebIDL approach, we can simply continue in that direction as well. 14:39:32 ... e.g. because of the industry need, or people's opinions. 14:39:57 ... The second picture shows a similar discussion in the Web of Things IG. 14:41:09 ... It may make sense to concentrate on the TV Control part if needed. 14:41:56 q+ igarah 14:41:58 ack k 14:42:00 ack i 14:42:35 Igarashi: I'd also like to know about what Kaz suggests, and on the network-approach impacts. 14:43:19 ... This may not talk about an API abstraction layer, but rather as an interface gateway. 14:44:01 Kaz: Yes, this diagram is a simple way to express 3 main API levels. 14:44:28 Igarashi: So WebIDL is the highest abstraction, and Web sockets a middleware abstraction? 14:45:20 Kaz: Please don't be confused by the terms used here. WebIDL here is really used to mean JavaScript interfaces. 14:45:53 ... JavaScript APIs, Websocket, C++ APIs could be implemented on top of the same API. 14:46:06 ... It may make more sense to discuss these details in the Automotive group 14:46:21 Igarashi: Is the Automotive group going to provide some feedback to the TAG? 14:46:27 Kaz: Yes, they will. 14:46:40 Igarashi: I'd like to know. 14:47:02 Kaz: It may make sense to "join forces" between the Automotive and TV Control groups. 14:47:42 ... The Automotive group felt that the TAG did not suggest to follow one of these approaches, just that it suggested to look into them. 14:47:55 skim13 has joined #tvapi 14:48:05 Igarashi: The benefit of the Websocket API is that it may be easier to add to browsers. 14:48:34 [I think that matches what abosl did for the TV Control API prototype he's been building, by the way] 14:49:32 Chris: I think we should discuss this on the mailing-list to see what approach might work for us. As part of the discussion on security, the separation of features might be useful. 14:49:55 ... What you showed Kaz is interesting and of interest to us as well. 14:50:23 Igarashi: Does any other working group define an interface between a browser and a server? 14:50:41 ... Is the Automotive group the first one to do that? 14:51:09 Kaz: The Web of Things IG has been discussing along these lines as well. MMI to some extent. 14:51:24 Igarashi: I think this is more protocols for me than interfaces. 14:52:50 Chris: Security and privacy, which I've been looking at, I need to write up some notes and share with you on that. It really exposes challenges with exposing channels to arbitrary Web pages. 14:53:12 ... I am not yet at the phase where I can suggest changes to the API itself. 14:53:30 q+ 14:53:56 ... The last point on the agenda is related with the work that Ryan Davies has been doing in the Automotive Business Group around media tuners. 14:54:14 ... Last exchanges were around zones. 14:54:25 ... Ryan thought this could be applied to the home as well. 14:54:38 ... to route audio output to different players in the home 14:55:04 ... This is different from what we've been discussing so far, where we view the TV device as one device. 14:55:13 ... I'm hoping that Ryan would come back. 14:55:17 s/would/will/ 14:55:38 q? 14:55:53 ack kaz 14:56:16 Kaz: The Automotive group had discussions on the next steps last week, and want to reactive the media tuner discussions. 14:56:22 Topic: AOB 14:56:40 Chris: I realize we've run massively out of time... sorry about that. Any other comments? 14:57:43 ... I'd like to thank you all to attend this meeting. Next one should be the 31st of May. I hope we'll have good discussions on the mailing-list in the meantime! 14:58:13 [Call adjourned] 14:58:17 skim13 has left #tvapi 15:23:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:23:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-minutes.html tidoust 15:35:26 RRSAgent, bye 15:35:26 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-actions.rdf : 15:35:26 ACTION: Chris to ask the CG about transitioning the GitHub repository to the WG [1] 15:35:26 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/03-tvapi-irc#T14-12-01