IRC log of sdwssn on 2016-05-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:49:12 [RRSAgent]
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20:49:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:49:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:49:14 [Zakim]
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20:49:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
20:49:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
20:49:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:49:17 [trackbot]
Date: 03 May 2016
20:49:28 [Kerry]
trackbot, make logs public
20:49:28 [trackbot]
Sorry, Kerry, I don't understand 'trackbot, make logs public'. Please refer to <> for help.
20:49:43 [Kerry]
rrsagent, make logs public
20:49:57 [Kerry]
zakim, code?
20:49:57 [Zakim]
I have been told this is SDW
20:52:35 [SefkiKolozali_UniS]
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20:53:50 [Kerry]
present+ Kerry
20:54:06 [ahaller2]
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20:54:34 [Kerry]
chair: kerry
20:54:46 [SefkiKolozali_UniS]
20:57:41 [Kerry]
Kerry has changed the topic to: webex code is 643 407 318 I hope
20:57:57 [ahaller2]
and password?
20:58:20 [ClausStadler]
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20:58:32 [phila]
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20:59:11 [KJanowicz]
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20:59:28 [Kerry]
Kerry has changed the topic to: webex code is 647 066 501 pwd sdwssn
21:00:27 [JRamsay]
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21:00:33 [Payam]
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21:01:25 [KJanowicz]
present+ KJanowicz
21:01:34 [Payam]
present+ Payam
21:01:37 [DanhLePhuoc]
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21:01:41 [Payam]
what is webx room id?
21:02:17 [Payam]
found it
21:02:45 [JRamsay]
present+ JRamsay
21:02:50 [KJanowicz]
present+ KJanowicz
21:02:51 [Payam]
thanks phila
21:03:02 [ClausStadler]
present+ ClausStadler
21:03:07 [joshlieberman]
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21:03:11 [phila]
zakim, code?
21:03:11 [Zakim]
I have been told this is SDW
21:03:14 [RaulGarciaCastro]
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21:03:19 [Kerry]
zakim code?
21:03:28 [RaulGarciaCastro]
+present RaulGarciaCastro
21:03:31 [SefkiKolozali_UniS]
present+ SefkiKolozali_UniS
21:03:37 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
21:04:02 [DanhLePhuoc]
present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:04:07 [phila]
zakim, this is Meeting id 647 066 501 pw dswssn Phone +1-617-324-0000
21:04:07 [Zakim]
got it, phila
21:04:15 [phila]
zakim, save this description
21:04:15 [Zakim]
this conference description has been saved, phila
21:04:38 [Kerry]
Kerry has changed the topic to: webex code is 647066501
21:04:57 [phila]
phila has changed the topic to: webex code is 647066501
21:05:35 [KJanowicz]
21:05:58 [Kerry]
scribe: claus
21:06:04 [Kerry]
scribenick: claus
21:06:20 [Kerry]
21:06:38 [Kerry]
proposed: approve minutes
21:06:48 [KJanowicz]
21:06:55 [KJanowicz]
21:06:56 [Payam]
21:06:56 [ClausStadler]
21:07:07 [JRamsay]
21:07:07 [ahaller2]
21:07:14 [KJanowicz]
21:07:16 [KJanowicz]
21:07:20 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:07:21 [SefkiKolozali_UniS]
21:07:40 [phila]
0 wasn't there
21:08:21 [SimonCox]
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21:08:31 [phila]
RESOLUTION: approve minutes
21:08:33 [SimonCox]
+present SimonCox
21:08:39 [phila]
present+ phila
21:08:45 [Kerry_]
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21:08:47 [phila]
present+ SimonCox
21:08:52 [joshlieberman]
Webex having a spat with Safari. On finally.
21:08:56 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:08:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
21:09:12 [Kerry_]
patent call:
21:09:39 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:09:43 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:09:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
21:09:53 [SimonCox]
Can't get onto webex :(
21:09:54 [Kerry_]
topic: "Sensor" related to DUL: followup
21:10:29 [Kerry_]
zakim code?
21:10:39 [ClausStadler]
Follow up from last week's discussion to move sensor from PhysicalObject to Object
21:10:53 [joshlieberman]
Webber <xxx> Safari. Try Chrome?
21:11:02 [ClausStadler]
s/week/SSN meeting
21:11:30 [Kerry_]
21:12:25 [Payam]
21:12:39 [KJanowicz]
21:13:03 [SimonCox]
Can a sensor be a person?
21:13:17 [KJanowicz]
IMHO, yes (and it should)
21:13:38 [Kerry_]
21:13:40 [joshlieberman]
I should hope so.
21:13:43 [Kerry_]
ack payam
21:14:32 [SimonCox]
Perhaps sensing is a role, not an essence?
21:15:17 [joshlieberman]
Or is a person a platform for multiple sensors?
21:15:24 [KJanowicz]
everyting that takes measures and produces and outcome should be allowed to be a sensor
21:16:02 [SimonCox]
@josh depends on how much you want to decompose it
21:16:07 [KJanowicz]
btw, this also means that there has to be a stimulus
21:16:14 [ClausStadler]
payam: pratically people won't look into these kind of terminological details - they have a device that can measure things and want to model their setting - so suggestion to focus on more into practical issues
21:16:23 [Kerry_]
21:16:30 [Kerry_]
ack KJanowicz
21:16:31 [joshlieberman]
I might challenge a visual observation by a blind person, but that's just me.
21:17:03 [RaulGarciaCastro]
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21:17:05 [SimonCox]
+1 to @KJanowicz
21:17:40 [KJanowicz]
21:18:36 [SimonCox]
THe other problem with DUL alignment is Observation =/= Event
21:18:44 [ClausStadler]
KJanowicz: as SSN-DUL alignment won't be part in the FPWD and people are unlikely to query for "give me all objects" its not a major issue
21:19:07 [Kerry_]
21:19:14 [Kerry_]
ack kk
21:19:18 [Kerry_]
ack KJanowicz
21:19:27 [SimonCox]
We can defer this discussion until we have revisited the rest of the ontology
21:19:46 [ClausStadler]
Kerry_: There will be a note published which intends to show how to use SSN with DUL, so the alignment is an issue, although not a major one
21:20:29 [Kerry_]
21:20:49 [SimonCox]
... and maybe also look at alignment with other upper ontologies (e.g. BFO) at the same time as DUL
21:20:51 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:21:17 [ClausStadler]
KJanowicz: We should focus on the core observation and sensor model which should become as useful as and only once that has been established see how DUL alignment can be performed
21:21:20 [KJanowicz]
IMHO, we need a core part of SSN,e.g., a pattern that is as trivial as and then add more complex modules on top of it for more complicated applications
21:21:40 [KJanowicz]
21:22:03 [Kerry_]
ack danh
21:23:30 [ahaller2]
21:23:39 [Kerry_]
ack KJanowicz
21:23:51 [KJanowicz]
21:23:55 [ClausStadler]
DanhLePhuoc: Agrees with KJanowicz - the first class citizens are observation, measurement and some metadata and they should be worked out first
21:24:45 [Kerry_]
ack ahaller2
21:25:24 [ClausStadler]
KJanowicz: If there was small robust model published it will likely have millions of users right away. From there the model(s) can be extended.
21:25:51 [KJanowicz]
ahaller2: yes but lets not forget that SSN-XG was the result of an incubator group that was tasked to test out the waters. we should be allowed to include lessons learned
21:27:18 [SimonCox]
Process issue: yes, it is good to resolve things, and to clearly record the resolution. But that does not mean things can't be re-opened if the group agrees.
21:27:30 [Kerry_]
proposed: sensor is an dul:object issue delayed until we reconsider core ssn first and it may become irrelevant
21:28:17 [Kerry_]
21:28:26 [ahaller2]
ack ahaller
21:28:41 [KJanowicz]
21:28:50 [ahaller2]
21:28:59 [ClausStadler]
ahaller2: Agrees that devising a simple set of core modules with light weight semantics (RDFS) is a good idea. Also, we should start from what is already on the web protege and remove items rather than starting over from scratch.
21:29:00 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:29:01 [Kerry_]
21:29:46 [KJanowicz]
21:29:53 [joshlieberman]
21:30:14 [KJanowicz]
using foundational ontologies is really not cathcing up on the SW. Most people moved on to patterns and other approaches and this is for good reasons
21:30:50 [KJanowicz]
I reason is that it is not maintained any longer
21:30:56 [joshlieberman]
IoT actually needs a strong device model to deal with bewildering variety of sensors and platforms.
21:31:01 [KJanowicz]
21:31:47 [Payam]
21:32:09 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:32:11 [Payam]
I don't think we need a redesign
21:32:33 [Payam]
what we need it to make SSN more lightweight, more modular and add O&M
21:32:40 [ClausStadler]
SefkiKolozali_UniS: As ontology engineers, in our work, we have to comply to certain criteria when publishing datasets, such as include links to certain foundation ontologies. Therefore, changing alignments requires update of established processes in the publishing workflows. Hence, there need to be strong arguments to remove ontologies and potential replacements need to be clarified.
21:32:40 [KJanowicz]
21:32:41 [Payam]
21:32:49 [KJanowicz]
Agree with Payam
21:33:03 [KJanowicz]
21:33:08 [Payam]
Kerry_ can you repeat your porposal
21:33:12 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:33:17 [Payam]
ack Payam
21:33:25 [Kerry_]
proposed: sensor is an dul:object issue delayed until we reconsider core ssn first and it may become irrelevant
21:33:30 [Payam]
21:33:33 [SimonCox]
21:33:35 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:33:35 [ahaller2]
agree with Payam, I think we all agree on what to do, it is more a question around process
21:33:36 [ClausStadler]
21:33:40 [KJanowicz]
21:33:43 [ahaller2]
21:33:44 [Kerry_]
21:33:54 [KJanowicz]
I would like to speak on that
21:33:59 [SimonCox]
21:34:06 [Kerry_]
resolved: sensor is an dul:object issue delayed until we reconsider core ssn first and it may become irrelevant
21:34:24 [joshlieberman]
21:34:30 [SimonCox]
21:35:26 [joshlieberman]
21:35:36 [kerry]
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21:35:36 [phila]
ak kj
21:35:39 [phila]
ack kj
21:35:40 [Payam]
ack joshlieberman
21:35:53 [phila]
s/ak kj//
21:35:54 [KJanowicz]
the reference to DUL at does not exist anymore.
21:36:27 [Payam]
agree with your plan Kerry_
21:36:47 [KJanowicz]
This one still works:
21:36:47 [Payam]
21:37:22 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:37:33 [kerry]
21:37:45 [kerry]
ack danh
21:37:50 [SimonCox]
@KJanowicz disconnect between ontologies and linked data ;-)
21:37:54 [ClausStadler]
kerry The work on FPWD should stay close to what it is now
21:39:26 [kerry]
21:39:32 [ClausStadler]
DanhLePhuoc and Kerry: Proposal for modularization already exists, we should not start over from scratch
21:40:42 [Payam]
ack Payam
21:40:45 [kerry]
21:40:57 [KJanowicz]
I am afraid that if we only do minimal changes for now with the hope to change them leater, we will not change them at all
21:41:14 [KJanowicz]
sorry :-)
21:41:18 [ClausStadler]
Payam: The meeting is run too democratically: Issues should be more prioritized such that important things get tackled before having to wrap up everything in the last two weeks :)
21:41:56 [KJanowicz]
21:42:08 [Payam]
kerry when do you plan to publish it?
21:42:37 [SimonCox]
When it is in a condition which shows a coherent picture of what we expect to see going forward.
21:43:09 [Payam_]
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21:43:28 [phila]
q+ to ask about
21:44:08 [kerry]
21:44:25 [phila]
-> FPWD?
21:44:26 [ClausStadler]
KJanowicz: We are trying to standardize something for the next 10 years to come. Therefore we should be allowed to perform major changes and it should take the time needed, such as 2 months. (I hope I got that right)
21:45:08 [Payam_]
21:45:16 [KJanowicz]
21:45:24 [phila]
ack ph
21:45:24 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to ask about
21:46:34 [kerry]
21:46:50 [phila]
ack p
21:47:07 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:47:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
21:48:24 [phila]
present+ joshlieberman, RaulGarciaCastro
21:49:10 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:49:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
21:49:21 [kerry]
21:49:36 [SimonCox]
There is another proposal on the table, mentioned by @KJanowicz above
21:49:43 [KJanowicz]
21:50:33 [kerry]
ack KJanowicz
21:50:34 [ClausStadler]
payam: What are the priorities for getting FPWD done?
21:50:38 [phila]
regrets+ Scott
21:51:22 [KJanowicz]
21:51:56 [SimonCox]
21:52:18 [ClausStadler]
kerry: It has been discussed over - 1. dul alignment 2. modularization 3. get open issues and documentation + introduction into the draft
21:52:27 [kerry]
ack KJanowicz
21:53:53 [ClausStadler]
KJanowicz: Emphasizes that payam's comments on slow progress due to too much talking are a bit harsh
21:55:47 [kerry]
21:55:53 [SimonCox]
It is incorrect to suggest there are no other things on the table.
21:56:12 [KJanowicz]
I understand your point kerry and I fully appreciate your work on pushing us towards a first draft.
21:56:16 [ClausStadler]
kerry: The document suggests how modularization gets implemented - its in the proposal already. What goes into SSN and what not will not be resolved within the next two months, therefore the issues need to be documented - in a nutshell, we can have mechanisms for modulariations but not content.
21:56:24 [kerry]
21:56:48 [ClausStadler]
s/modulariations /modularizations
21:56:54 [DanhLePhuoc]
21:57:03 [kerry]
ack next
21:58:19 [ClausStadler]
DanhLePhuoc: What's the ETA on the FPWD?
21:58:48 [phila]
(awkward process thing - publications need to be agreed by whole WG, not just sub group).
21:59:30 [phila]
q+ to talk about time lines
21:59:54 [ClausStadler]
kerry: plans were: 3 month ago it was end of april, but now estimate not clear yet - proposals?
22:01:13 [ClausStadler]
kerry: within a month it could be feasible, unresolved proposals could go into the document as questions
22:01:24 [SimonCox]
Agree that there is no consensus on alternative proposals, but some *are* fully worked out.
22:01:57 [SimonCox]
[Time draft is incomplete, but can be viewed here ]
22:02:41 [kerry]
22:02:41 [Payam]
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22:02:53 [ClausStadler]
phila: in order to get extension approved by W3C for dec 2016, formal ground work needs to be done by june
22:02:53 [kerry]
ack phila
22:02:53 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about time lines
22:02:53 [phila]
ack phila
22:03:00 [DanhLePhuoc]
22:03:15 [SimonCox]
Alternatives to be considered:
22:03:22 [kerry]
ack danh
22:03:41 [Payam]
22:03:43 [ahaller2]
+1 to publish first draft with ontology documented as now and then work on agreement on further modules
22:04:12 [ClausStadler]
DanhLePhuoc: will it be feasible to add measurement and observation to the FPWD?
22:04:25 [ClausStadler]
kerry: I first need to understand the proposal better - please elaborate
22:04:40 [KJanowicz]
SimonCox: This is what I tried to push; see above.
22:04:50 [Payam]
ack Payam
22:04:51 [kerry]
22:05:12 [ahaller2]
22:05:13 [Payam]
SimonCox , I think this can be a good starting point
22:06:20 [SefkiKolozali_UniS]
22:06:38 [KJanowicz]
22:07:02 [kerry]
ack ahaller2
22:07:28 [kerry]
22:07:46 [ClausStadler]
DanhLePhuoc: Explained current work alignment of observations and measurements
22:07:53 [ClausStadler]
s/work/work on
22:08:12 [kerry]
ack SefkiKolozali_UniS
22:08:18 [SimonCox]
Note that om-lite does *not* provide a model for sensors - just a stub class. This where the SSO pattern could be introduced?
22:08:27 [ahaller2]
ack ahaller2
22:08:37 [ahaller2]
ack ahaller
22:08:52 [KJanowicz]
My proposal was to have a common core module for observations and sensors in a style and then add more complex modules for other parts and for more involved axioms on top of it. I also proposed to use om-lite for the observation part (it does not speak about sensors).
22:09:32 [KJanowicz]
I understand if this is not feasible and do not want to add to the pain.
22:09:40 [KJanowicz]
22:09:40 [kerry]
ack KJanowicz
22:09:41 [KJanowicz]
22:09:53 [ClausStadler]
SefkiKolozali_UniS: Also has input on the observation and measurement topic and offers to contribute
22:10:06 [SimonCox]
This also of interest:
22:10:55 [joshlieberman]
22:10:56 [KJanowicz]
Thanks, bye bye
22:10:57 [joshlieberman]
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22:10:59 [kerry]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:10:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kerry
22:11:01 [Payam]
thanks, bye
22:11:03 [RaulGarciaCastro]
22:11:05 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:11:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
22:16:59 [ahaller2]
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22:37:25 [ahaller2]
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